Baile Dhun Liebhe

[D.W.Livingston]

What I did to advance our "researching" of this was contact the local libraries in Livingston Town, Scotland to see if they have any information. They forward my message to a Sybil Cavanagh the local History Librarian for West Lothian. She wrote me back the below information... She starts with "As far as I am aware" so this is by no means the final word on this quest. =) RE: Gaelic Translation of Baile Dhunliebhe Your e-mail to Almondbank Library has been forwarded to me, as I'm the Local History librarian for West Lothian. As far as I'm aware, Livingston has never had a Gaelic translation of its name.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi David, Yes that all makes sense with what we know about the history of the town and its people. We are not likely to find a old atlas in the lowlands in any event with lowland towns written in gaelic because there probably isnt one. It is still logical however that gaelic speaking highlanders particularly those that travelled from time to time to the lowlands over the centuries like the MacLeas might have used gaelic name for some of the towns. To be sure some may have spoken English or SCots and went with the existing town names used by the lowlanders.But the Macleas who we believe may have had an ancient connection with the Lowland Livingstones may have used gaelic names to describe towns inhabited by lowland Livingstones. That being said we may have to consider what the gaelic dictionary on the Scottish Parliament Site stated about the use of Biale Dhun Liebhe as gaelic for the town of Livingston as being incorrect. The latest info you have located tends to reinforce that notion. I have had some trouble with this for some time, but the discovery of comments on the Scottish Parliament site made me want to try to figure this thing out. Clearly this person who has some knowledge of the gaelic language seems to think that Clan MacLea Livingstone is primarily responsible for this Biale Dhun Liebhe-Livingston linkage and does not think of Baile Dhun Liebhe as being the ancient gaelic name for the town of Livingston. regards Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi David, Once again I must quote Socrates who said "I know that I do not know" in regards to this Baille Dhun Liebhe mystery. Whatever the origins ancient or recent it would seem that Scottish government officials have generally accepted the notion that Baille DHun Liebhe is the gaelic name for the Constituency of Livingston. See for example http://www.Scotland.gov.uk/dictionary/gedt-12.asp Other sites in gaelic also refer to the town of Livingston as Baille Dhun Liebhe. It is interesting that the West Lothian Source is not familiar with the gaelic name for the town, but that probably suggests that folks in West Lothians generally dont generally speak gaelic or speak of their town in the gaelic language. The Baron knows quite a bit about the history of the gaelic language throughout Scotland, I wonder what his take on this Baille Dhun Leibe would be?

[Canadian Livingstone]

Did the Scottish Parliament pass legislation like Canada to become bilingual? I am not familiar with Scottish policies regarding use of english and gaelic in the government. Notice the town of Livingston listed in a few places in gaelic. I am getting the sense that there was

[Kyle2 MacLea]

Yes -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_G ... ecognition ( Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005 ) K=

[Canadian Livingstone]

HI Kyle, Thats what I thought. Thanks for confirming that. We introduced in Canada many years ago a bilingualism program to help prevent the rise of separatism in our largely french speaking province of Quebec and to encourage bilingualism throughout the Country. Search Baille Dhun Liebhe and notice what you get. Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Kyle, Here is a discussion by M.P.'s of the Language Act. It is rather long, but quite interesting and informative. http://www.Scottish.parliament.uk/busin ... 202-02.htm regards Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Correct gaelic equivalent of Livingstone town or not. Baille Dhun Liebhe I can't be 100% certain. Obviously some think that lowland towns did not have gaelic names because the principal language was Scots and English in older times. Still it is interesting to note that certainly in many people's mind McDhun Liebhe or MacDhun Leigh for a number of years in Scotland was considered to be the gaelic equivalent of Clan name Livingstone. How far back that tradition goes in Scotland I cant say. The 1953 edition of Robert Bain's Tartan book states the Gaelic name for

[Canadian Livingstone]

To continue my earlier message, however as ANdrew Lancaster points out in his April 5, 2007 message to the forum Liebhe and Leigh seem to be two different words. I quite agree with Andrew on this point and I struggle constantly with this word "liebhe" in my own mind. Some Maconlea-Livingstone researchers in the past convinced themselves that Maconlea sometimes spelled in one of its many variations as Maconleigh translated in English as son of a Physician and gaelic dictionaries do list leigh as meaning physician. Others are uncomfortable with this physician meaning and consider it a misunderstanding altogether of ancient clan name Macdhunleibhe. To my thinking its obvious of ancient Irish origin and with the "dhun" portion of the name goes back to distant past in ancient Ireland when many gaelic families built hilltop fortifications to protect their people from hostile neighbours. The "Liebhe" to may way of thinking was the portion of the ancient name used to identify an ancient leader who lived in one of these primitive hill forts long ago in the part of Northern IReland where are gaelic ancestors once dwelled. The name Dhunliebhe whatever the "liebhe" component meant,is then very ancient far ancient than any physician family in Scotland. But how many gaelic dictionaries can you find which define clearly the word liebhe. If anyone has a dictionary with the gaelic word liebhe in it please let me know. That being said familiarity breeds common usage and while not everyone in the town of Livingston may recognise or know that Baille Dhun Liebhe is a "recognised" gaelic equivalent for their town name it apparently rightly or wrongly is

[Kyle2 MacLea]

I believe you are right Donald that regardless of the correctness of so doing, by necessity they have had to come up with Gaelic names of many locations in Scotland that never had them originally... So, while I can't speak linguistically as regards the appropriateness of the naming, it DOES appear that this is way of naming may give the impression of being the original derivation of Livingston, when in fact it was quite the opposite! K=