Baronage Press

[Bachuil]

Some of you may be interested to read this article - http://www.baronage.co.uk/2006a/Bachuil-1.html which addresses some points previously raised here. Regards Niall

[Kyle2 MacLea]

That is a WONDERFUL document, Niall!

[Andrew Lancaster4]

Dear Niall I tried to reply concerning your mention in the document of DNA evidence, but it did not work. Second attempt. I am not an expert on the subject, but I know you normally present the case in terms of a choice between two Dunsleibhes. It seems to me that there is good news and bad news for your argument, if I understand it correctly: 1. The argument *against* an Ui Niell origin has obviously been strengthened by the recent proposal that the Ui Niell dynasty share a DNA haplotype which no one in our clan seems to have. 2. The argument for a more recent origin shared (if I understand you correctly) with the Irish Dunleavys, has received bad news in the Irish DNA study, because you do not appear to share their haplotype either. 3. The argument of the Clan Donald is that your family descends from the family of Colla Uais and the Dalriadic or Scotti royalty, who they in turn derive from Oriel dynasty (for which the Irish spelling is rather difficult). I am not sure about just how much data they have to prove this, but the DNA type they hang so much upon is quite common in Scotland, and not common in Ireland. What is clear is that your family and many other Argyll clan leaderships have what the DNA boffins had been calling the Scots R1b motif. 4. If I understand Rob's approach, he suspects that the so called Colla/Scots haplotype is Pictish - with many of the Ulster Irish having "Cruidne" DNA also. (So therefore I think he does not necessarily disagree with the clan Donald theory.) Whether or not traditional genealogy supports this theory, this one possibly makes the most sense based on the DNA. (But I'd like to hear Rob's ideas again soon.) As you can probably tell, I am partly just trying to make sure that I can recite the main arguments, so any feedback would be appreciated. Best Regards Andrew

[Bachuil]

Hi Andrew, I think this problem is far from solved. I have a very strong gut instinct (very rarely wrong) that the Anradan theory is without merit. Apart from that I am rather struggling.

[Andrew Lancaster4]

Let's work on it then. I see that the clan Donald are with us on this, and Rob is also putting energy into some questions touching on these matters. I agree with the clan Donald that one thing we can do is test more markers for people with the Scots haplotype. I think Rob will eventually get the SMGF markers tested, but I'd like to test still more (which they are also doing). Just give a sign and a kit will come! The other thing you genealogists have to do is try to find some "anchors". Which Scottish and Irish families have the most secure male line genealogies back to the Dark Ages? After reading various debates, I am starting to wonder. If we can just find a few, then this might make a big difference. Perhaps you can start with key ancient families and try to work out whether there might be any male-line descendents. Take the Cenail Loarn for example? Best Regards Andrew

[Rob Livingston2]

Hi Andrew, You interpreted my take on this subject incorrectly, for which you can be forgiven - I'm not always absolutely clear in communicating my ideas.

[Bachuil]

Rob, You must have heard this - Once is happenchance, Twice is Coincidence but the third time it is ENEMY ACTION! So 'lots of coincidences' always get me twitching! Kindest Regards Niall

[Grant South1]

Dear Gentlemen, This is my reading. 1. The Scots cluster also being called Dalriadic and this includes the line of Alpin, as found in the chiefly line of the MacGregor's. 2. Thr Dal'Riada and the Dal'Fiacha are known to be collateral Houses. 3. The DNA of our MacLeas and MacGregors support this, and represent continuity. 4.The body of the Clan Donald also share in this signature as the historic migrations are true and derive from a shared origin. 5. Several signatures are found in co. Down, which are also aligned with this signature, such as that found in the Magennis Clan. 6.The genealogies regarding the O'Neill in Ireland have for some time attracted concern. Recent DNA testing at Trinity has proved that the later powerful O'Neill do not share a Y-DNA continuity from the historical Ui'Neill. The so-called northern Ui'Neill found in Donegal and Tyrone are all related suggesting Y-DNA continuity, of that kindred, from their name-father, Niall Mor, High King. 7.The O'Neill signatures do not match the Dalriadic/Scots cluster. Present Position. The Dal Riada and Dal Fiacha are traditionally linked in Ulidia and that the historical lines of descent in Scotland such as the MacGregors and the MacLeas also share related Y-DNA lines. Further that as the Y-DNA signature is also found in co. Down, this provides evidence in support of these lines. The Genealogical Anchor. I do believe that as far as Scottish lines of descent are concerned the MacLeas of Lismore are the anchor. 1. They are the only ancient royal family still in residence on their ancient patrimony. 2. They have throughout the ages been recognised as such by their powerful neighbours and have held their sacral patrimony in diverse times to the present. 3. And this has been due, in fact, that they are the sacral line of Lorne, as Lay Celtic Abbots, and related via matrilineal descent from the ancient royal House of Lorne from whose line all later Lords of Lorne have derived their ancient title and rights accordingly. I think our MacLeas are in a very rare condition! Anyway these are just a few of my thoughts. All the best!

[Andrew Lancaster4]

Thanks Grant, that's a good summary. But the weak point, as I am sure you know, is that a family can be old and still not be an unbroken paternal line, which is what the Y DNA is useful for. Best Regards Andrew

[Andrew Lancaster4]

Thanks Rob! This helps, and of course I knew I might be wrong, which is why I thought I'd prod for an update. Question: do you not think there is any doubt about whether Fergus mac Erc and the Cenel Loarn were of the same paternal line? Just a quick extra comment: I noticed that in the Cenel Loarn there was a Donn/Brown who fathered the Sinclairs? A quick look at their DNA project and I saw some YCA=19,21 types but I did not really even check if they were R1b let alone "Scots" R1b. I am trying to think of families that might have the Loarn bloodline still. Best Regards Andrew