Why would a Maconlea change his name to Livingstone?

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi All, Lets imagine you were one of the Maconlea clansman that met with the Baron sometime say in the 1750's or 1760's to discuss a comprehensive scheme of Baron Maconlea's to get all the clan within his area of influence to change their name to Livingstone? No doubt some of the clansman had questions or did not entirely agree with the reasoning behind the change that would affect the families that had a gaelic name for centuries. What questions might have been on your mind? 1. Why are we getting rid of our gaelic clan name with its ancient origins and Jacobite heritage for that of a Lowland clan of a failed, attainted and exiled aristocratic Jacobites Earls with a long impressive history as friends of the Scottish royal family but that lost everything after 1715. Why some 50 years or so after they had their title and property forfeited from them from the Hanovers are we taking on their name? Maconleas fought and died at the Battle of Culloden and we are very proud of our name and our families Jacobite loyalties. 2. What then motivated the Baron to take this unusual action and change the name of the clan to Livingstone from Maconlea or Maclea? If you take the old MacLea history accounts as factual then there was some sort of ancient connection between the two families that forged a alliance over the years with the understanding that we could use the name when travelling in the lowlands as if we were close

[Kyle2 MacLea]

Dear Donald, When you do think about it light of your scenario, there are some interesting implications: 1.

[Jill Richmond]

Hi there Donald. How are you? I hope that you are beginning to feel a little better. After Kyle's erudite answer to your queries I shall add my two pen'orth. It is impossible to know what the clansmen thought when their chief asked them to change their name from Maconlea to Livingstone, but they would have done it. As Young Bachuil has said elsewhere a clan is not a democracy, and what the chief said went. Also, times were very hard and dangerous for Jacobites in the years after Culloden, and many clansmen would probably have seen the sense in adopting a name that would allow them to move around more freely without attracting the attention of the Hanoverian authorities who would doubtless have been on the lookout for Jacobite sympathisers. I do not think that it is known for certain why the name Livingstone was chosen. However there does seem to have been an alliance of some sort between the two families, whether familial or of friendship. Even before the adoption of the name Livingstone it seems that Maconleas found it useful to use the name when travelling in the lowlands. I too am proud of the MacLeas, Maconleas and Livingstones. Proud of their courage and fortitude, not just on the field of battle, but in their everyday lives. As a clan we have a lot to be proud of, a lot to respect and a great heritage. Regards, Jill

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Kyle, Thank-you for the feedback. This all started with conversation with my father and out of it came the question well if you were a Maconlea why would you want to change your name? Yes we have the old MacLea history manuscript which seems to give us some sense that their was a family connection. And you are correct we dont really know the details of Sir James Livingston of Skirling's short time living on the Island of Lismore in the 1640's. Interestingly around the same time Sir James Livingston of Skirling received those ancient clergy lands around the Isle of Lismore from King CHarles the FIrst, one of his lowland kin another James Livingston was named 1st Earl of Callendar by Charles. It was this James that attempted a rescue of King Charles with soldiers from the Falkirk area when he was held in confinement on the ISle of Wite. This other James is apparently the ancestor of the RObert Livingston the land lord in the late 1600's/early 1700's of Livingston Manor, New York. The one that had lived with his father Rev. John Livingstone in exile in Holland.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Jill, Yes I had thought about the rationale of changing the name because of the Maconlea association with 1745 and having being Jacobite participants at the Battle of Culloden.. The only problem I keep having with that one is the Lowland Livingstone family (not all of them) were by and large long standing royalists and loyal beyond question to the Stuarts. Certainly the George II administration and the local Campbells in Argyll had long memories about the Old Pretender's rebellion of 1715 that James and William Livingston heads of Linlithgo and Kilsyth Livingstons had participated and would not intrepret changing the name Maconlea to the name of an dangerous Jacobite that spent his final days in lonely exile with the Old PRetender in Rome. Mind you by the 1760's or whenever exactly the name change precisely occurred, it may be that the Hanovers and their supporters in Scotland considered that they had essentially broken the back of the Jacobite revolt in Scotland and did not consider any further trouble, but am not certain that was their thinking at that time. Certainly the ban on the tartan was not lifted until well into the 1780's and memories of 1745 had not quite diminished in both among the proud Highlanders and with the Hanovers. I do know that in the subsequent reign of King George III, the King received correspondence to the effect that Henry Stuart of Rome last of that family line and brother of the late Bonnie Prince CHarlie was dire financial circumstances and the King having sent a representive to look into the matter, responded compassionately to his cousins situation with a generous pension from the Crown.

[D.W.Livingston]

From the information I've read through I believe that, like King Arthur and Camelot, we may not be able to get the final, actual point where and why McLea (MacOnlea or MacDunshleibe) decided to use the Livingstone name permanently but there are a few possibly theories that pull forward in the more likely reasons. I believe that it was not coincidence that James Livingston of Skirling resided in Achandun Castle. In the 1640's King Charles was in trouble and needed allies (http://www.british-civil-wars.co.uk/tim ... 41.htm#aug). I am sure the Gaelic and Anglo simularities between Mac Dunsleve, McOnlea or , M

[Bachuil]

David, This is very exciting.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi All, I realize that the Clan Chieftain Duncan Maconlea did not require a majority vote of rank and file clan members to change the name of the Clan to Livingstone, but on the otherhand it seems likely that before making his decision he did consult with his sons and other clan members who were trusted advisers and friends. And no doubt there were some clan members who were luke warm to the idea who expressed their views to him. I asked the question Why would a Maconlea change his name to Livingstone perhaps better rephrased why would Baron Maconlea want to change the name of his clan to CLan Livingstone and the original question has been a catalyst for some insightful and interesting responses. I was going to watch the extended movie versions of Lord of Rings Books 2 and 3 tonight, but perhaps I will put it off tonight to reflect upon some of the interesting ideas recently discussed here by David, Niall, Jill and Kyle. regards Donald (Livingstone) Clink

[Jill Richmond]

I find David's posting and Young Bachuil's reply most interesting and exciting,and look forward to hearing more in the fullness of time. There do seem to be possibilities here. Regards, Jill

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi All, I very much appreciated your responses to my question which I have rephrased to state Why in your oppinion would Baron Maconlea change the name of his clan to Livingstone? Although this question has been explored in the past by the Young Bachuil (Niall Livingstone),the late Robert Livingstone, Andrew Lancaster,Kyle MacLea, myself and others, some of those newer to the forum may find this interesting and informative. I would agree with David (David Wyse Livingston) that we don't know the precise details of the name change, the why, when and how, and we can only do our best to come up with what each of us considers to be the most likely reasons for name change. And by this kind of usefull exchange of ideas we can perhaps reach some kind of consensus or at least a list of most likely scenarios that each of us considers most likely. It should be mentioned however here that after some discussions in the past with the Young Bachuil (Niall Livingstone) and the late Rob Livingstone that there was a general understanding from studying the Argyll Maconlea and later Livingtone records that sometime between the years 1750 and 1770 a decision was probably made by the Baron at the time to have all the Maconleas (MacLea) clan members under the leadership of the Baron of Bachuil to change their name to Livingstone. Interestly as part of this change, perhaps to establish some differenciation from the Lowland family, the highland clan was to spell it with a distinctive e at the end. That being said there is a strong case to argue on the basis of the MacLea 1743 account of the family that our Argyll Maconleas and those closer to the borderlands used the name Livingston when travelling in the Lowlands many years prior to the "official" name change. So while we don't have a document proving a precise date or year of this name change the records of the Argyll Maconleas and subsequent Livingstones prove almost certainly that the Baron made a decision sometime between 1750 and 1770 to change the name to Livingstone and the name change and what is fascinating is that the 1775 Argyll tenant list and various marriage and birth registers seems to confirm that virtually none of the Baron's Maconleas (MacLeas)in Argyll resisted the name change. Trying to determine the facts of our ancient Maconlea Livingstone history is sometime frustrating, often like exploring