Donald Livingston of the Red River Livingstons

A Read-only Archive of the old forum. Many useful messages and lots of family data!
edith
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Donald Livingston of the Red River Livingstons

Post by edith »

We think the John called John Sr. is our relative. Remember, the fashion at that time was to call the older person Sr. and the younger one with the same name Jr. even if they were not related. In fact, there could only be a couple of years difference in their ages, as in this case. (As also seemed to be the case with the two Donald Livingstons we've discussed before.) Another transcription of the list I've seen says John Matheson, wife and child, who would probably have been our John. I haven't even gotten into the subject of who Robert Gunn, the piper, was. I know there were more than one Gunn family involved in the settlement but I have not researched them. I wonder if McDonald's journals for the years in Scotland would be with the Selkirk papers. They certainly could be, if he was working for Selkirk. This is just getting more interesting all the time. I'm sorry our new correspondents haven't returned, but we've been having a good time talking amongst ourselves in the meantime. Edith
Canadian Livingstone
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Donald Livingston of the Red River Livingstons

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Edith, There was a friend of Selkirks name Dallia who lived at Callendar. He was the one who introduced Archibald McDonald of Glencoe,Argyll to Selkirk. The Dallia papers cover that 1812 period just before Archibald rondeviewed with the Staffa with Mull and Islay passengers including Mull Macleans and the Islay Livingstons. The Dallia papers are located at teh University of Edinburgh though there may some letters from Dallia to Selkirk in the Selkirk Papers regarding Archibald. It is amazing how many books have been published on Selkirk's Red River Settlement since the very beginnings of the settlement. Some are very good,some not so good. I would like to reccomend my favourites on Red River Settlement that I found helpful in my research and I think you would enjoy reading: Lord Selkirk of Red River by John Morgan Grey published in 1963,Cornerstone Colony by Grant MacEwan published in 1977 and most recently The Silver Chief by Scottish Canadian historian Lucille Campey published in 2003. Also there is Exile in the Wilderness: The Life of Chief Factor Archibald McDonald by JEan Cole Murray published in 1979 which covers in great detail McDonald's experiences with Selkirk, the Sutherland settlers, Red River and his later adventures. There is very good chance that most of these books are available on line. You can order the Lucille Campey book through Peibooks.ca and the other books possibly from Abe Books which has a huge collection of used books available from book sellers world wide for purchase online. A great service to be able to shop at hundreds of used book dealers world wide. Like a dream come true for a avid history book reader like myself. regards, Donald
Canadian Livingstone
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Donald Livingston of the Red River Livingstons

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi John, We all welcome you to this forum. Jerry Schmidt and Edith Matheson are your cousins as you are all decended from Neil Livingston, his wife Ann through his sons Donald, Hugh and James Livingston. I noticed at one point at Lovejoy website that mentioned a Donald Livingston connection that may have been created by yourself or a cousin and have been trying to get in touch with you some time ago. Regarding the Morven and Island of Islay connection there is a deposition of Donald Livingston in the Red River records in which Donald states that he was a native of Morvern. There is also the marriage entry of my ancestor Miles Livingston in the kilarrow, Bowmore, Isle of Islay Parish book which states that Miles and Janet Livingston were married on June 20th 1812, were natives of Morven and had gone to America (British North America) aboard the Staffa. See Exile in the Wilderness by Jean Murray Cole which discusses the Staffa a schooner which picked up the Northern Mull and Isle of Islay setlers and took them to the port at Sligo Ireland where Lord Selkirk was waiting to greet them and where the Hudsons Bay vessel the "Robert Taylor" was waiting to take them to Hudsons Bay in British North America.
Canadian Livingstone
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Donald Livingston of the Red River Livingstons

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Edith, Hi Edith, John Matheson and his wife Barbara must have been with Miles and his wife Janet and others when they left the settlement in June of 1815 shortly before it first destroyed by the North West Company. There were about 134 that left with Duncan Cameron of the North West Company on a 1000 mile journey to Upper Canada. regards, Donald
Canadian Livingstone
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Donald Livingston of the Red River Livingstons

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Edith, The other working list of settlers from the Red River records that I found quite helpfull is a list put together by Settlement leader Miles McDonnell and signed by him which is a "List of families and Servants carried from Red River" from the Hudson Bay Company Archives E8/6 fos.151d-152d What is nice about this list is Miles McDonnell has recorded the age in 1815 and where he believed the settler originated in Scotland. Interestingly McDonnell lists 114 settlers and 31 servants which would add up to 145 in total compared with 134 which is usually cited as having deserted the settlement on June 21st or 22nd of 1815 with Duncan Cameron of the North West Company. Settlers No. 86 John Matheson School age 24 Altbreakachy No. 87 Barbara his wife age 23 No. 97 Alex Matheson age 24 Keanford? N0. 98 John Matheson age 22 No. 99 Mary his wife age 18 Thats all from that list. So the three of them I guess left for Upper Canada. There all young so they probably show up in later census records. Of course not all the early census records are indexed completely for Ontario. The 1871 Ontario Census is the earliest that has been completely copied for Ontario. Probably someone is working on 1861 and 1851. 1871 would be a good starting point. That is over 50 years later and some of those Mathesons may not be living. It would be interesting to find out though if any of them survived to reach 1871 and be recorded in that census. This may all be old stuff to you but I thought I would go through this exercize if for nothing else to than to refresh my memory regarding your Matheson kin that may have settled in Ontario. regards, Donald
Canadian Livingstone
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Donald Livingston of the Red River Livingstons

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Edith, I am rethinking this somewhat. I think that when they listed Donald Livingston Sr. who was Donald Livingston (1785-1876) and probably not (1791-1876) with Donald Livingston jr. they are not suggesting they are father and son as some might understand this mean. The clerk just meant one was the younger and one was was the older of the two. It was your uncle born in 1785 who about 27 more than likely when he arrived at the settlement not a junior apprentice but probably an experienced boatbuilder as recorded in an 1814 list from the settlement. On the same list Donald Livingston Jr. is recorded as a laborer and is the Donald Livington Jr. listed as a son of Miles Livingston. I have finallly convinced myself that this is correct and that Miles must of had a young son from a previous marriage. It makes sense that this younger Donald would be employed as a laborer and still could be 15 or 16. I am presuming he was born when Miles b.1775 was a young man himself lates teens early twenties. It seems not likely that the recorded information is wrong about Miles having a son. And could still be quite young and still be employed doing simple labor jobs for the settlement. It is too late for some of other info I have submitted but but better late than never to accept what is stated on the records. At least we know that the younger Donald is not the son of the older Donald born in 1785 which some people have suggested. We know for certain that the Donald Livingston that married the sister of Mrs. Pritchard mentioned in the Red rIVER sETTTLEMENT RECORDS FOR CERTAIN IS YOUR ANCESTORS BROTHER AND THE SON OF nEIL lIVINGSTON. regards, Donald
edith
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Donald Livingston of the Red River Livingstons

Post by edith »

Hi, Donald, Where to begin - you have covered so much today. So I'll just put down some random thoughts. John Matheson the brother/uncle of my ancestors Alexander/Angus was, I think, the one called Sr., though he was only a couple of years older than the other one. (This one list calls him Jr.) As you say, it was just to differentiate them by age. It did not mean, as we do, that Sr. was Jr.'s father. Before, I said the other unidentified John may have been the brother of the other unidentified Alexander. I rechecked the message I got from the pres. of the Lord Selkirk Assn, and she did not say that. She just said she did not exactly know who he (John) was. I did not remember that he married a Bannerman, but it is quite possible. I have heard 114 and 140 as the number of settlers who "deserted" in summer 1815. They were trying to survive, is what they were doing. I told Chloe about the census you found for John's son, from Phyllis Lindsay. She said that was funny, she is just making plans to get together with Phyllis Lindsay in a month or so, to see what she knows about Barbara Sutherland's family. She has some questions about the common understanding of the family. We were just talking about that a few days ago, so I was very interested to see the new names you found. Ancestry.com at the library only has a few censuses. I found John and Barbara in 1851, in West Zorra Township, Ontario County, Canada West. They had three sons living with them, and the son John's wife and daughter, Grace. The oldest son, Hugh, had a family already by then, and I did not find him. I do not know where he was. The Selkirk Assn. says from the Red River Settlement they went to West Gwillimbury, near Bradford - which is in Simcoe County. I thought Ontario County may have been nearby, but I don't know. Its boundaries have probably changed since then. I had not heard any mention of York County before. Then, a Simcoe County history says they went to the Talbot settlement. I did not read your earlier message closely enough to catch that you mentioned Talbot also. That is in Elgin County. So some time after 1851 they went to Elgin County, where the son John stayed at least to 1871. According to the Selkirk Assn., John, the father, ended his days in Bruce County (he died in 1866) - and I did find his son Hugh and his three children in Bruce County in 1871. Interestingly, Hugh's son Jesse moved his family to the Selkirk district of Manitoba, apparently the far northwestern wilderness, by the description of the location on Ancestry.com. They were there in 1901 and 1906. Hugh's daughter Hannah and her family moved to BC before 1901, and she died in Vancouver in 1917. Yes, Kitty McG. was married to Hector McLean only briefly before he died. They were in the 1812 party. She had a daughter, who was raised alongside her Pritchard children but seemed to keep the name McLean. Catherine and Ann appear to have been the only members of the family who actually came to the settlement. Hector McLean was the brother of Alexander and John, who made the move to Iowa in the 1830s, and their sister Mary was another of the ancestors of Chloe Clark (all were in the 1812 party). Mary's husband was Martin Jordan, one of the workers from Ireland in the first party. They do not appear to have been related to the "wealthy model farmer" McLean, who died in one of the skirmishes you mentioned the other day. Chloe very
edith
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Donald Livingston of the Red River Livingstons

Post by edith »

Hi, Donald, I just looked at the maps, and am confused. I really have to study all those counties and see how they changed over the years. Maps are at http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/county ... frames.php Ancestry.com says John and Barbara were in West Zorra, Ontario Co. in 1851, Oxford District. I'm taking their word for it; the census pages themselves don't actually say that. But West Zorra is in Oxford Co. So Ontario Co. must have been very large in 1850 and been cut down a lot since then (the atlas dates from 1880). I also discovered that the censuses do not seem to be images, but transcriptions, and not all completed - at http://ontariocensus.rootsweb.ancestry.com They do have a list of names, but they don't connect to anything. The list says that a Hugh Matheson and Isabella (his wife) were in Oxford Co., town of Woodstock, in 1851 - and their oldest son, Jesse, in his marriage record in 1863, said he was born in Woodstock. So that Hugh could have been John and Barbara's son - although the index does not include Hugh and Isabella's children's names, and they should all have been there before 1851. So, again I say, I have a lot of work to do to figure this all out. Incidentally, Ancestry.com does not have the image of the census you gave in your message of 17 Jan, it just has the transcription of the information. It says that John, age 47 in 1871, was born in Scotland. That is not so if he is from this family. He would have been born in Ontario. So, just as in the US, people in Canada did not always give their right ages and birthplaces to the census enumerator. Of course, nothing tells us who talked to the census enumerator. It may have been someone who did not really know. Some of the lists of "deserters" say John Matheson, wife and child. The list must have been prepared at the end of the journey, as a child was born en route. The records do not say if it was a boy or girl. It either died young or was already married and raising a family by 1851, as all the ones listed in the census were younger than that, and Hugh, the oldest one we know of, was born about 1818 in Ontario. Edith
Canadian Livingstone
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Donald Livingston of the Red River Livingstons

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Edith, I can check the deed index at the Ontario Archives to get an idea when they left their original farm if they did. We know from the Simcoe County information that John Matheson and Barbara Sutherland settled after their arrival in Upper Canada at Concession 6 Lot 7 West Gwillimbury Township, Simcoe County in the Bradford, Ontario area I understand. My brother in laws family were pioneers in East Gwillimbury which is in York County which got me a bit mixed up earlier. Anyways with that Concession and lot number I can look up the land index information which will tell me when they sold the farm or when it changed hands. I suspect this lot was probably a 100 acre land grant they got after petitioning the Government of Upper Canada sometime after 1815. I see a date of 1790 to 1866 but dont know if that applies to John or Barbara or is accurate. You probably already know that they were married July 20, 1814 at the Selkirk Settlement. regards, Donald
Canadian Livingstone
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Donald Livingston of the Red River Livingstons

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Edith, Hopefully we can sort out that ancesty.com info. In any event we now know for certain that John Matheson born 1791 who came to Upper Canada (Ontario) at the age of 24 in 1815 from Red River with his wife Barbara who was 23 at the time and born in 1792 settled originally on Concesssion Lot 6 Lot 7 West Gwillimbury Township, Simcoe County near Bradford Ontario and should be in the early records there. THen I will see when they left. I have a John Matheson born or baptised June 10, 1791 at Dornoch, Sutherland the son of ALexander Matheson and Christian McKay. Dont know if that is him or not. The name Alexander is certainly in the family I suspect. We will figure out this West Zorra, Oxford, County information
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