MacIvor Connection?

[Rob Livingston2]

I think most of us are fairly ignorant of the terms you use to describe the arms of the various clans mentioned.

[Bachuil]

As you know, I think that this whole subject is fascinating - partly because there are so many possibilities, and so few facts.

[Grant South1]

Failte Rob, The 'n' in Donnsleibhe should not have been included, mea culpa.  I do see donnsleibhe written as 'Brown of the Hill'-archaic form being Duinslebe. In regards to Arms, the MacSween's of Castle Sween, Knapdale, later Fanad, Donegal, use three black boars on a gold shield.  Clan Campbell use a Gyronny, which is an alternate subdivision of the shield in black & gold travelling sun-wise, with the boar as the crest. The old Clans used the totemic symbols of their ancient tribes as later heraldic designs/motifs.  In this way associations are suggested. As a footnote [91] to Chapter five of 'Argyllshire' by Rev.George D Matthews: http://www.mactamhais.liquidweb.com/ ARGYLSHIRE.htm Mentions that within Clan Campbell there is a belief that the elements of their armorial bearings are derived from the maternal side of their progenitors [Clann Suibhne]. In the Annals of Ulster under 1034, is recorded the death of Suibhne mac Cinaeda ri Gallgaidhel. Some have suggested this refers to Kenneth, King of Galloway, it may also suggest/or include the Norse-Gael of Argyll. Two branches of the ancient Picts were the Boar and Cat tribes. All the best. Grant South

[Donald Livingstone Clink]

It may also be possible were not seeing the forest for the trees. This may turn out to be the most complex genealogical research project ever untaken or perhaps it is not. I can't provide the forum with answers to questions that ultimately can't be answered. But I agree that one must keep an open mind to the alternative theories. Based upon all the scholarly information provided over the past few weeks it seems to me that that all these Dunslaves, MCDunlaifs, MCDunsleafs, M'Onleifs, MCDunsleas, McDownleanis

[Grant South1]

Hello Donald, It is a wonderful subject and one that I must defer to the Young Chief on. I do believe that the Coarbs of St Moluag were Barons in the Baronage of Argyll & the Isles. These baronies preceded the unification of Argyll as a shire directly under the Crown of Scotland in 1292. The Celtic Barons of Argyll & the Isles were accepted to sit as Lords of the Scottish Parliament in 1309. The original granter of the Abbey lands, being Appin, was the King of Lorn. The later lordship being inherited maternally by the Earls of Argyll. The Coarbs being the hereditary Abthanes of Appin. Further the hereditary keeper of the Bachuil Mor, is held to have also been the hereditary inaugurator of the House of Lorne. I believe the description of Iain macMolmoire'mhicIvar MacLea, Baron of Bachuil in the charter of 1544, as signifer, to the Earl of Argyll, relates to the House of Argyll also being the Lords of Lorn. In regards to the early MacLeas. The old extinct MacLea [MacDunnsleibhe], Barons of Linsaig in Kilfinnan parish, Cowall were held to be the early stem, from whom the MacLeas/Macleays of Appin and Kintyre descend. The sacral lineage of the Coarb-Chiefs is one of only two such families which have survived to the present, the other being the Dewars of St Fillan. All the best. Grant South

[Bachuil]

To my mind the title of baron is rather a red herring.

[Donald Livingstone Clink]

Hi Grant, Yes a truly wonderful subject which has generated some interesting and informative discussions on the forum. All and all for me it has been a tremendous learning experience as I am not from Scotland and Highland family history is not my area of expertise. Suffice to say in the last year I have tryed to locate any information I could find on Maconlea/Livingstones and Scottish history related to to this clan. I am impressed by the dedication and effort both the Young Bachuil and Robert Livingstone have put into helping others with their family research, particulary when the information is not in many cases easy to find. I would assume that the ancestors of Duncan Maconlea were in some local position of

[Bachuil]

Dear Donald, The Celtic Church was well established in Scotland in the 600s.

[Donald Livingstone Clink]

Hi Niall, I can greatly appreciate the many hours you have dedicated to your family history research as I have spent many a sleepless night working on my Canadian family research. I don't doubt that your ancestors inherited the staff from generation to generation following the death of St. Molaug, I was just wondering if it was possible that sometime between the 11th and 13th century if your Dunsleeves or Dhunleibhe ancestors married into a old family on the Island of Lismore who had been the original recepiants of the staff of St. Molaug. It fit a Dunsleeve/Maelmoire time line that I had more or less established in my head, but I guess its a notion not worth pursuing anymore. Not all is lost as I have good feeling about these Maelmoires and Dunsleeves in the Argyll records being kin with your Maconlea ancestors and mine, just shaky as to their connection to the Irish families for example listed on the Lyon Conjectural Tree, although I think their familie's Ulster Irish origins is unquestionably correct.

[Bachuil]

Good Morning Donald First let me say that we are working on so little information that it is rare that we can be 100% certain about anything.