Which Dunsleve?

[Bachuil]

I am not sure that I have made my views clear

[Bachuil]

First On another thread I have just pointed out that Rob brought this extract to my attention 'In an agreement between John of Lorn and John of the Isles made in 1354 it was agreed that until John of Lorn delivered the Castle of Kerneburgh (Cairnburgh in the Treshnish Isles )to John of Isla, Lord of the Isles, he should give him three hostages, including a lawful son of John MacMolmari.

[Grant South1]

Dear Young Bachuil, I am still sceptical about the O'Neill descent of the MacSween's....... Anrothan and his branch were not recorded in early Ireland and only appear in later genealogies. I also believe that the results arising from the DNA projects are telling. Historical records suggest the MacSween's and the MacDonald's are connected in an early way. Somerled is held to descend maternally from a daughter of Alpin who married Godfrey macFergus of Oriel ca. 836 AD, later as Toiseach of the Isles, who is recorded to have assisted Kenneth macAlpin. The MacGregors are on record as son's of Alpin. The genealogy of the MacDonald's records descent from Suibhne macNiallgus, grandson of Godfrey macFergus, this is possibly where a mis-representation begins. I estimate this Suibhne to be living pre-900 AD. All the very best. Grant South

[Rob Livingston2]

I thought it important that I clarify the DNA relationships between the Lismore MacOnleas and other surnames that are only beginning to emerge from the DNA Project Data.

[Donald Livingstone Clink]

I appreciate the hard work that has gone into the DNA Project, but I am not convinced the tests on the available subjects conclusively prove or positively identify our ancient origins be they Irish, Norwegian, or Norman. Were the MacEwens, Lamonts, McLauglins, McDougalls, MacDonalds, Innes, MacLean's tested in addition to the Morrisons and Campbells from Western Argyll? I do not think that in fairness any notion about the ancient Dunsleeve family should be "put to rest", but in keeping with what I understand to be the goals of the McLea/Livingstone forum we should be encouraging a free exchange and debate of ideas. Having said that I have no doubt that it is possible that those Scottish scholars in the last 100 or so years that have written about the Dunsleeve's family origins, Campbell, Grant and Montcrieffe among others, may indeed be wrong, but to be fair most of them are no longer with us and are therefore not in a position to defend their research one way or another.

[Grant South1]

Donald, Your point is of interest to many of the Clan DNA Projects. The Chiefs of the McDonalds and MacDougalls are rightfully of paternal Royal Norwegian descent, this has been established through DNA testing. The body of the Clan Donald is derived from the Irish Clan Colla. In this sense the Norwegian Chiefs were incoming husbands who reigned jure uxoris. I have often thought that Sir Iain would have embraced DNA testing as a means to explore the various ancient genealogies. In regards to the respected genealogists such Sir Iain and others, I think it would be right to say, "we can see further now as we stand on the shoulders of giants". All the best. Grant South

[Rob Livingston2]

Sorry Don, I didn't mean to discourage the free exchange and debate of ideas. I simply wanted to steer the debate in a direction that I think will be more fruitful. I apologize for appearing to be so absolute. I think what you might be suggesting is that the blood line of the Keeper of the Bachuil is not necessarily pure.

[Donald Livingstone Clink]

Hi Rob, No. What I was suggesting was that if the McDunsleeve ancestors from Ulster did not infact arrive on the Island of Lismore until the medievil period as the Lyon Conjectural Tree suggests, then perhaps an ancestor of the McDunsleeves married into the family that had possibly since the death of St. Molaug been entrusted with the staff. I assumed that the John McMaelmoire mentioned in Confirmation document of 1544 to be a descendant of a Dunsleeve who arrived in the Medievil period. As was common in Scotland at that time the name of the father etc. was listed but nothing like a family name of Dunsleeve was recorded because either surnames were not common use and because the scribe did not bother identify the person by his surname or clan name at that time. I guess this does not support an unbroken male line from the 6th century inheriting the staff, but the notion that at some point in the early medievil period that through a possible Dunsleeve's or a Maelmoires wife who had ancient family ties to Bachiul and Molaug staff, a male line ran out so to speak and so through marriage Dunsleeves or Maelmoire's son continued the tradition of being the guardians of the staff that been in the mother's family in centuries previous. I am not saying that this is was what actually happened, only perhaps if the male descendants of Dunsleeve arrived on the Island in the early medievil period as the Lyon Conjectural Tree seems to suggest. If this was the scenario then the Baron could still by rights be a descendant of the original person of the ISland who received the Staff. As in the case of Monarchies, a royal title is sometimes passes on to other families who are related by blood and in line for sucesssion when a male heir is not available from the original family. We know there was a John McMaelmoire a Baron of Bachuil in 1544 presumingly an ancestor of Duncan Maconlea of Bachuil and a descendant of a Dunsleeve. We know there was a John McMaelmoire in the 1340's in Western Argyll at the time of JOhn MacDonald of Isles and John MacDougall of Lorne who were on opposite sides during this period in support of the Scottish monarchy. Almost certainly it stands to reason that this John McMaelmoire had a family connection to an earlier Maelmoire and Dunsleeve who ended on ISle of Lismore or a family member did. Thats all I am really saying.

[Donald Livingstone Clink]

No question they were giants in the world of Livingstone research, but like many of us doing our family histories these days they drew heavily upon what had already been written about the family origins. As Niall and Rob have pointed out, some of the information regarding the ancient family origins may not be correct. My ancestor Miles Livingstone was born at Morvern sometime between 1775 and 1780, but the family left Morvern across from the Isle of Lismore a few years later for employment opportunities on the Isle of Islay at or near the village of Bowmore. It was here that my ancestor became a skilled boatmaker as a young man. Lord Selkirk was establishing a colony for displaced highlanders and was lookingfor skilled tradesman such as Miles. In 1812 a few days after marrying his wife Janet, Miles Livingstone sailed to Sligo Ireland and joined a party of settlers consisting largely of Mull area McLeans and some Irish for British North America and Hudsons Bay Territory where Selkirks Settlement was located. They boarded a ship at Sligo, the "Robert Taylor" which journied a few days after their arrival to Hudsons Bay. Miles was accompanied on the voyage by two Donald Livingstones both evidently former residents of Bowmore, Isle of Islay or nearby.

[Bachuil]

Good Morning, Everybody. I would like to start off by saying that I think Rob and I have achieved so much because we were both hugely supportive of the overall aim, encouraged each other when trails fizzled out and above all that there was a constructive debate.