Here's one for the clan mythology experts

[Rob Livingston2]

There would be very little benefit having your brother tested for the purposes of our DNA Project.

[Donald Livingstone Clink]

Niall, No doubt we have some norse blood from our female line, but obviously the Maconlea male line has its origins ultimately in ancient Ulster Ireland. Obviously our DNA derived from the male line of the Livingstones should have no norse characteristics. I wonder if a Scottish man's first name could have been derived from a mother's father's patronymic in the 16th century. Don't give up on Kivor as there is alot of facinating research been done on this name that goes way beyond the MacIvor clan which appears to have no connection to your family. Oddly enough there is both Irish and norse possible origins to this name. THe earliest source of the name Ivar or Ivor I could find was I believe a 7th century King of Sweden,and thereafter the name was used by various norse peoples and followed them into Ireland, France and Scotland. I find it interesting reading that some interesting artifacts were discovered on the Island of Lismore in times past, ancient candlelabra's etc. Have you attempted any archaelogical digs on the Island in recent times or thought about trying out a good metal detector to search the beach areas? Metal detectors are now cheap to manufacture and relatively inexpensive to purchase. Even the cheap ones will locate coins and such things in the sand. (Of course one always needs the permission of the landowner.) I would think some of those Viking raiders hid a treasure trove of loot on one of those islands in Argyll. If any of the Islands around you were used as bases by the pirates to attack Ireland or the Irish and picts living in Argyll then logic dictates there might be something of great historical value buried and long forgotten somewhere on your Island. Donald

[Andrew Lancaster4]

Dear Donald If your reference to "patronymics" refers to surnames like Maclea, Maconlea and Livingstone, as I suppose it must, then it is certainly the case that these were not always strictly according to who one's father was. It could, for example, be just a sign of who you feel yourself allied to. Until surprisingly late in Scottish history it could change within one lifetime. As it happens, there are several Livingstones/Macleas in the DNA project who seem to have specifically Norse DNA signatures. But also there is no reason that R1b haplotypes, like most of the Maclea/Livingstones, might not have come from Denmark, for example. In any case, the DNA does not give any suggestion at all that the Macleas came from Ireland. Perhaps you are presuming that the baronial family can be treated in isolation in this regard, as a more "pure" Maclea family. But then wouldn't we all have to accept that there is no concrete evidence about where they came from, but only myths? Or, even if we accept the myths as a guide, are they really clear enough that we can say that they tell us that the lines back to the founding fathers were purely via paternity (father-son) relationships? From the discussions on this list, I did not get that impression. Best Regards Andrew

[Donald Livingstone Clink]

Andrew, Well that is interesting. I was not aware that the results were showing Maclea/Livingstones with norse characteristics. If I am understanding this whole DNA process, I would of thought that the majority of results would indicate more of a gaelic Irish origin from the male DNA. I would tend to agree with the Young Bachuil that the norse in his blood if it exists would be from one the ancient Maconlea ancestors on the Island marrying one of the local girls of mixed norse and gaelic ancestry in the middle ages. I raised the question about possible norse heritage when I noticed that one of the early Barons mentioned in the 1544 Charter that present Baron has, is referred to by the Campbells as John son of Maelmore son of Kivor. Maelmore a gaelic name meaning devoted to Mary by the 18th century was replaced in Ireland and Scotland by the English name Miles. My Livingstone ancestor Miles Livingstone was born abt. 1775 in Morvern across from the Baron's Isle of Lismore. Miles was not a common name among the Argyll Livingstones, but around the time my ancestor Miles was born at Morvern there were one or two individuals located on the Isle of Lismore with that name. With many of us doing our Maconlea/Livingstone research there are many documents not available to us, but one assumes that Mile's Morvern Livingstones had some ancient connection to Bachuil Maconleas on the Island as well as their ancestors that went by the first name Maelmoire. As for the Norse connection it was the first name of John Mc Maelmoire's grandfather Kivor which to my thinking is Norse that got me on the Viking/Norwegian trane of thought. In addition to the viking history in the area, the Norwegians briefly occupied a portion of Western Argyll in the medievil period. Anyways rightly or wrongly I posed the question whether or not the name "Kivor or Ivor" in the 1544 document could be a significant clue to the family origins. There is not likely any Maconlea family connection to the McIvor clan, but I could not help wondering if the norse name for John's grandfather was as important as the fact that his father's name was the gaelic Maelmoire. regards Donald