Here's one for the clan mythology experts

[Andrew Lancaster4]

Hello all. If you look on Rob's DNA page you will notice the group which includes a Livingstone, 2 Maclays, 3 Wilsons, A Fergie and a Furry. After consulting Black, I think the Furry might also be descended from a Fergie/Fergus. Is there any branch of the Maclay or Livingstone history where a family might have included patriarchs who were Fergus and/or William? The Fergie thinks his ancient roots lie in Stirlingshire, as does one of the Wilsons - though I understand they have paper trails that stop in Lothian and Refrewshire respectively. My own Livingstones seem to come from Strathmore in Perthshire and Angus. Maclay seems to me to be a spelling found whereever gaelic was being transcribed for the benefit of English speakers, generally on the edges of the highlands therefore, such as in Stirlingshire and Perthshire. The spelling might also have been taken up in similar situations in America, England and Ireland. Best Regards Andrew

[Donald Livingstone Clink]

Have you ruled out the possibility that your Perthshire Livingstone ancestors were connected with the original Lowland Livingstones of Callendar near Falkirk in Perthshire rather than the highland Argyll Maclea/Maconlea/Livingstones?

[Andrew Lancaster4]

Absolutely not. We could be descended from a branch "lowland Livingstons". (But then which one? Know of any Ferguses or Williams?) It seems interesting to ask what our little group's ancient common ancestor might be because the DNA is so distinct and so localised, that it is easy to imagine that we might actually be able to eventually prove or disprove a theory or two. Having said that, we have two Maclays and one Livingstone in this small group of "deep" relatives, so it would not the most obvious hypothesis to suggest that the Maclays are a fluke. The name Maclay is normally only associated with the highland clan? On the other hand, what is a "lowland Livingston" when you look at DNA? It seems to me that so little is known about the original ancient reasons that the Macleas and Livingstones felt themselves related, that it is even possible that some of the highlander Livignstones and/or people with Maclea as a surname might just as easily descend from people living closer to Livingston the town. Or, as Rob sometimes points out, both clans might really have a common history and Living of Livingston might not even have been an Anglo saxon at all. If the DNA project keeps throwing up interesting links between lowlands and highlands we will have to suspect it. Best Regards Andrew

[Donald Livingstone Clink]

Andrew, There is always the possibility that highland MacLeas made a clan connection with lowlander James Livingstone who was granted land in Argyll by King CharlesI and resided briefly on the Isle of Lismore in the 1600's. A MacLeas history from the 1740's goes one step further to state that the highland MacLeas not only had ties with Lowland Livingstones but were related somewhow them. If you are descended from Dr. David Livingstones family or that of other Livinstones originating from the Isle of Lismore then I would suspect you are of the highland MacLeas. THere are lots of people out there who are definitely of the lowland Livingstone family. By that I mean those connected to the Livinstones that lived at Calendar near Falkirk in Perthshire. I realize that Dr. David Livingstone's grandfather left Ulva for the Lowlands, but the roots of this family is that of the Highland MacLea/Livingstones. Proving the Lowland Livingstones and the Highland Livingstones are kin by DNA analysis I imagine is a formidable task with a great many challenges. Obviously one major one is finding the right people to sample. This is not my area of expertise. I suspect that our MacLea Livingstones might have small amount of

[Donald Livingstone Clink]

Like our Macleas or Maconleas those who went by the clan name Leister or patronymic MacInleister or MacanLeistear anglicised their name after 1745 as surnames were adopted. The MacanLeisters chose "Fletcher" because it was the english equivalent of the Gaelic "Leisdear" meaning man of the arrow. The Macinleisters (Fletchers)were in the late 1400's allies of the Stewarts of Appin against the McDonalds of Kepoch. In appreciation for their assistance a bond of friendship and cooperation was initiated between the two families with a promise of mutual support in event hostilities should occur with another clan.

[Keith Livingstone Australia]

We are of the Argyll Livingstones, and of course there is the obligatory "clan relationship" with Dr David. I've got as far as a John Livingston(e) , Weaver, who married an Agnes Edmiston in 1827. He's my ggg grandfather. Anyhow, that being said, I was under the recent impression from my own DNA result that a Nordic strain in my haplotype wasn't present. Perhaps Rob could clarify that the Nordic influence can be tested reasonably positively from the 25-marker haplotype? Donald's mention of Nordic ancestry being a possibility for Lismore Livingstones may have some substance despite the DNA assumptions. My (now deceased) Aunty Mavis was somewhat of an absent-minded repository of all kinds of family information and folklore which I would write down quickly while she flitted between subjects on long-distance phone calls. Most of the small gems she dropped I wrote down, and most I've found to be exactly right or very very close (ie: spelling of name not as on birth record exactly). So..this has me intrigued, because in 1997 she told me that we were "of the Danelaw way back" which is where her red hair came from. Could she be repeating a family lore she heard at her father's knee? I have no idea.

[Andrew Lancaster4]

Hi Kevin The Y DNA tests do not test what "blood" you have, or who you are related to, except that in the paternal line only. From what I've seen of Scottish surname projects so far I'd be very surprised there'd be anyone of Scottish blood who did not also have "Norse" blood. After all it had several ways to get to Scotland - by Viking, by Anglo-Saxon or by Norman. However as surnames were at least often passed along this paternal line, the DNA tests can sometimes give an indication of which family links were really close and which were more "sentimental". It is likely that some families who later felt themselves close relatives were once simply allies of convenience, while other true blood links have been lost to family storytellers. For testing different hypotheses, Y DNA, while not a miracle test, is about the best thing we have. Best Regards Andrew

[Andrew Lancaster4]

Dear Donald The mathematically desirable sampling is not something most DNA project can aspire to at the moment. The technology is new and most DNA projects are certainly in what will one day be seen as a very rudimentary first phase. In other words, most DNA projects are very far from what a statistician would want. Nevertheless, the projects are already making important conclusions (normally just when not expected) and they won't get better without everyone pitching in. I'd like to get on a podium at this point (election season after all) and say that doubts about whether to join a project because of doubts about whether the project can really come to conclusions is really just like doubts about whether to vote because of doubts about the value of one vote. The Livingstone project is actually moving along well, but we can also say that if it keeps going this well then within our lifetimes, the data now being accumulated will be the old core of much more definitive and conclusive body of Livingstone/Maclea genealogical data. Even in projects not going so well, the data coming in now will remain valid forever. In other words every new participant will only add to the body of information, and the information will never age. So the only way is up, quite literally. Best Regards Andrew

[Keith Livingstone Australia]

I have a (fraternal) twin brother. I've done the test and know the result. Is there any use in him doing the test as well, or his boys? Insofar as adding to our knowledge of the Livingstone DNA tree, won't they have exactly the same Y-haplotype as me, barring some brand new mutation? If there is some merit please advise and I'll get him onto it.

[Bachuil]

Morning Keith, Some years ago there was a big DNA exercise in Scotland.