A question for Gaelic speakers

[Andrew Lancaster5]

In 1743 Duncan Maclea of Perthshire reported one understanding of the Maclea/Livingstone name's origin in his area was that it was "Leavensitdh". How would that word of been pronounced though? (Especially the -tdh.) Regards Andrew

[Rob Livingston2]

"Sitdh" is probably a corruption of "suide", pronounced, "see".

[Andrew Lancaster4]

Thanks for that Rob. I think studying place names is certainly worth trying. As you may have guessed though, my question was very specific, because I am wondering what sort of etymology could have caused a family on the edge of the gaelic speaking highlands to have a name pronounced "Livietch". While it obviously could have come from a pronounciation like modern Livingstone, but what other options are available. Apart from the general question of whether anyone can think of any answer. A specific new question comes from your reply. Would anyone know how the mentioned word was pronounced in very old gaelic, or in Perthshire gaelic? Best Regards Andrew

[Rob Livingston2]

Back to your "Livietch/Livatch" question, as you have noted before, Gaelic "s" is pronounced "sh".

[Andrew Lancaster4]

Yes of course the idge/adge/itch sound could be a corruption from -is- or -its- or -ist- or -ints- in just about any language, but it's unsatisfying to leave it at that! : ) For example this would not tell us whether the original form was Dowleavis or Livingston. So if anyone ever has a theory ... I have noticed remarks in various places that Perthshire gaelic may have been somewhat distinctive by the way. I have no idea in what way. By I wonder if the remarks of Duncan McClea tell us anything: "Slee or Shavdh ... in Ireland, they having come at first from Ireland ... Dunslee, or Dunshavdh, or Dunslee McOLea, after the Irish way of expressing it, putting the Scots and Irish way together in the expression". There's that -dh again. But in any case I presume that in this case a Perthshire pronciation of Dunsleav becomes Dunshav? By the way Rob did you see Black's explanation of MACANALLY? He makes that name Mac an ollave and cites the "book of the Dean of Lismore". Best Regards Andrew

[Andrew Lancaster4]

From internet sources I have learnt that -itch or -idge is possible in gaelic and very likely reflects what would be spelt in gaelic as -id. So if I am understanding what I read, Livietch might be spelt in gaelic as leabhaid or leamhaid? I found the word leabhaid on the internet in line 4230 of part of the Part 9 of Lives of the Saints from the Book of Lismore. I have no idea what it means. Any help out there? I also found leamhaid using google, in the form of one Beinn Leamhaid - presumably a mountain. Again: any helpful comments? Andrew

[Rob Livingston2]

"Beinn Leamhaid" as shown on Google is actually a mis-spelling of "Beinn Leamhain" (if you plug in the given coordinates from the "Butterfly Monitoring" web page, you will find it located about 10 miles to the northeast of the Isle of Lismore - possibly within the boundaries of the parish itself),

[Donald Livingstone Clink]

Andrew, You and Rob have obviously spent many hours looking at all possible origins of our Livingstone name. I myself am inclined to think that the lowland Livingstone name may be rooted in the German Leving. Not an original idea, but one which seems to me plausible. Whether or not the original story about Leving's German or should I say Hungarian origins is correct, the name does exist commonly in Germany to this day. Donald

[Andrew Lancaster4]

Dear Donald In England, Living was at least sometimes a way of spelling the name which in Old English was sometimes written as Leofwin. No one claims this was "German" as such, but the name is Germanic. The English language is Germanic, but quite different from the modern standard language of Germany and Austria. Secondly I don't think we need to assume only two origins to the name anymore than we need to assume one origin. Thirldy, I'll throw a wild card: let's say there were multiple origins to both the Maclea name and the Livingstone name. How do we know those multiple families did not sometimes take up each others spelling conventions thinking that they were just different parts of the same family, thus totally confusing people trying to retrace what happened? Just to give a great example, one of Rob's ideas which comes from DNA evidence and documentary evidence is that the leaders of the Maclea clan might have originally had their name derived from "Leofwin" via a town in Cumbria, and not even the one in West Lothian. Then again, might that part of Britain not have had Welsh names in the mix also? But more to the point the Living who established Livingston in West Lothian might have been a man with a Gaelic name that was anglicised by the Northumbrians of the area. After all he lived in an area where two major languages met.

[Andrew Lancaster4]

The lines from the old book on the internet, in case they make any sense to anyone, were... 4228] anmain. Ro chaeinset a mhuindter cu m