SNP testing

[mikkenie]

Hi,

Let's introduce myself, I'm Remko Mikkenie and I live in the Netherlands. I traced my ancestry back to a Scottish soldier who married in the Netherlands and had a few children there (in the period 1698-1709). There were a lot of Scottish soldiers serving in the United Provinces back then (six regiments were Scottish during the War of the Spanish Succession). My ancestor Daniel Makelij probably died during the Battle of Malplaquet in 1709, because after that battle nothing is heard from him again. The Scottish regiments participated in that battle.

I'm trying to find out what my Scottish surname would have been. Makelij sounds somewhat like Mac-a-Lay. There have been numerous spellings of my surname, eventually turning into Mikkenie. Obviously, the first three letters have been Mac at some time.

I did some DNA-testing at FTDNA and YSEQ. One of my closest Y67-matches is a MacLeay, whose ancestors lived in the Lochbroom/Ullapool area (and maybe originated from the Contin area?). I also tested for a few SNP's, these are mutations where single nucleotides are replaced by a different one. My results are: R1b > R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > Z39589 > L1335/S530 > L1065 (Scots) > Z16325 > S744 > S764 > S756 > Z16328. Have a look at this group of people at the Big Tree http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?bl ... star=false, they are my far cousins.

Are there any other MacLeay's, MacLea's or Livingstones that are going to perform SNP testing? I'm really curious if I would find a match with one of you.

Kind regards, Remko Mikkenie

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Remko,
That is a very interesting story regarding your ancestral connections and a 67 marker match with a Macleay of Ross and Cromarty ancestry.
I am sorry that no one responded to your request for info earlier in June but there is really no one here who has the latest detailed SNP knowledge regarding the Ross and Cromartry Macleays. I was quite busy in June and July working doing some research and busy with family celebrations. I know of them and something of their history but I am no expert by any means. They are pretty much a distinct clan in their own right despite some accounts of their roots being linked with our Argyllshire Macleas and I understood closely associated over the centuries with clan McKenzie in Ross and Cromarty. But you likely know all that however. I would be interested in any info you might have regarding any Macleays who have done the 67 marker test with documented Macleay of Ross and Cromarty ancestry. Particularly those who have a paper trail linking to old Macleay families that lived in Lochbroom, Dingwall etc and the other Ross and Cromarty settlements where Macleay appear in the 1841 Scottish census for example.

I was in touch with Andrew Lancaster our DNA Project expert who I understand you have discussed with in the past regarding your DNA results and he is suggesting regarding the more technical and complex SNP questions that you get in touch with a multi surname project like an R1b project where you may find they are more informed about the latest identified SNP's some of which may pertain to your results. I regret I am not more help to you regarding your DNA related questions but I would appreciate if you could let us know more about genetic distance of the 67 marker match with the Ross and Cromarty Macleay descendant who if I understood correctly has information they descended from Macleay from Lochbroom. Yes I think the Macleays from Lochbroom, Ullapool, Dingwall and Contin etc in Ross and Cromarty area are quite possibly all the same Macleays but until some of their descendants of Macleays that lived in four settlements are all tested with familytreedna I can't say with 100 percent certainly. Historically speaking it is my understanding they are, but a Y Chromosome DNA test would certainly help to prove that is the case.

regards,

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Historian
Clan Maclea Livingstone Society

[mikkenie]

Hi Donald,

Thank you for your reply. I checked this forum in the first weeks after posting my message. Now I see that you actually responded .

My closest MacLeay match is at a genetic distance of 4 at 67 markers. His name is Alan John MacLeay. I got my information about his ancestry from this page: http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/Maclea ... %20R1b.htm. Citing: 'MacLeay family 47189 trace their paternal line takes me to the Ullapool and Lochbroom area in the northwest of Scotland at the start of the 19th Century. This is one of our several families exhibiting an R1b type especially associated with Argyll clans, variously called the “Scots”, “Dal Riata”, or “Scots” haplotype. Amongst his closest matches are a Macdonald and a Hall.' It seems like he isn't very active in DNA testing anymore. But I'm really curious about him being Z16328 positive as well. And what about the Bachuil group? Is my group really a cadet group as suggested on the above mentioned website?

I'm participating in some Y-DNA projects for quite some years already. It's now up to my close match or some new folks to do some SNP testing in order to find a more recent SNP that would be distinctive for my (MacLeay?) branch. Hence my appeal.

Thanks again.

Kind regards, Remko Mikkenie

[Greg Livingston]

Hi Remko,

I saw your post when it first was on the board but was hoping that either Andrew or Kyle would respond since they have more knowledge on how this works. I will see if I can get one of them to respond to you.

[mikkenie]

Hi all,

I ordered the BigY test at familytreedna. I hope that my close MacLeay STR-match will test for some of my new private SNP's. Because till now my descendancy from (Ross and Cromarty) MacLeay's is just a hypothesis.

Or maybe it will encourage some other matches to do some SNP testing as well. (I still wonder where the Bachuil's would fit on the Big Tree http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=9)

Regards, Remko Mikkenie

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Remko,

First thing I would say is most importantly your test results show with a 67marker test at a genetic distance of 4 you are a match with a Macleay of Ullapool origin I would think this does help to reinforce the notion in your family that your father's ancestors were indeed Macleays and more importantly likely connected to the Ullabroom or Ross and Cromarty family group. If nothing else was to be learned from your test that would in itself be significant. I reread the story of your Scottish Macleay ancestor coming to Holland and with these test results this incredible story takes on a great deal more credibility with the results of your DNA test being a relatively close match at 67-4. My understanding of DNA results is that it means that you probably shared a common ancestor a few hundred years or more with a Macleay of Scottish origin. So congratulations to you. Now all you have to do is find a bottle of Scottish whiskey in Holland and toast to your Scottish ancestors.

In terms of a connection with Clan Maclea Livingstone I am not certain whether or not DNA testing has established a possible ancestral connection between the Ross and Cromarty Macleays and the Western Argyllshire Clan Maclea/Livingstones nor I am I entirely convinced they have a historic connection with the Western Argyllshire Livingstones. Andrew established some years ago now, that two Livingstons which were tested 21629 and 164403 have DNA results that group them with you and the Ross and Cromarty Macleay but there not much in the way of detailed genealogy info on either of these Livingstons unfortunately. One of them 21629 contacted our forum more than 10 years ago with information from an earlier kin in the twentieth century theoretically linking them to Western Argyllshire Livingstones i.e.. Achnacree Livingstons and those of the Bachuil LIvingstones and Dr. Livingstone's family but there was only one posting and nothing included in the way of an ancestral line or genealogy to help to identify the families specific link to Western Argyllshire Livingstons. This person unfortunately did not send another message to the forum despite responses from our Chief and two clan members back then. So without details of this Livingston family line that is one of a few that matches with a Ross and Cromarty Macleay there is now way I can verify by their family tree info and any census or parish records from Scotland where precisely in Scotland this family lived in the 18th or 19th century. I am assuming they have some connection to an old Western Argyllshire Livingston family but it would be very helpful to be able to connect them to Argyllshire if they had included a detailed family tree including Scottish info. I am very sorry that we don't know more about this one of two Livingstons family from several years ago now with an apparently match to the Ross and Cromarty Maclea. I think it should be noted that these two Livingstons are rather unique in terms of the 3 other more predominate DNA groups of Livingstons tested with definite documented family links to Western Argyllshire but these two unique Livingstons with no apparently detailed family history info but with DNA matching with the Ross and Cromarty Livingstons has definitely motivated me to try and see if we can locate their descendants in the near future and contact them regarding a Livington ancestral line generation by generation so that I can see if they have documented links to Argyllshire that we can trace in the Argyllshire parish records if any actually exist.

Since then Andrew, Kyle and I have encouraged DNA participants to include some family tree info which is some help for all of us with the Clan Maclea LIvingtone and interested in the DNA project and the history of the Clan to better understand the family origins of those Livingstons and Macleas in the DNA project and if possible where there families lived in the 18th and 19th century if such information is known.

Anyways I am not sure I can learn about the genealogy of the Livingstons matching with Ross and Cromarty Macleays but I am going to find out what I can.

Donald (Livingtone) Clink
Historian
Clan Maclea Livingstone Society

[mikkenie]

Hi Donald,

Thank you for your reply. And my apologies for my late reaction.

Unfortunately, this MacLeay is not my only GD4 match at 67 markers. Other GD4 surnames include MacDonald, Durie, Sweeney, Reddoch, Urquhart, Norton and Stewart. But MacLeay is similar to my ancestor's surname Makelij.

What's very interesting is the following. Two Maclea/Livingstone's share the same SNP as I do, S756, approximately 1300 years old. Have a look at http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=812. There you can see a McLean and a Livingstone to the right who share recent SNP's! This McLean guy believes that his surname has been MacLay at some time. This shows a definite recent common ancestry between MacLea and Livingstone!

Unfortunately, I'm also positive for Z16328, where these guys are not. And I already tested negative for their own SNP's A6098, A6099 and A6100.

I think S756 is Argyll based. So maybe we will once find a genetic connection between the Ross MacLeay's and the Lismore Maclea's.

I definitely have to invite my MacLeay match to do some more testing after my BigY is completed. But I'm a little reluctant to do that. I don't want to spam him.

Kind Regards, Remko Mikkenie

[mikkenie]

Hi Donald,

Actually the above mentioned Livingstone, who tested positive for S756, is the same that you mentioned. He has FTDNA id 164403.

His A6099 SNP is approximately 400 years old.

Regards, Remko

[Bachuil]

I would refer you to http://www.clanlivingstone.com/Surname.htm.

Here I say

A third grouping settled in Strathconnon. It is believed that these Macleas migrated north to Contin in 1469 when they were displaced by the Stewarts of Appin. The Contin lands were in turn lost when a MacLea of Strathconnon died leaving no male heir and the Earl of Seaforth married the heiress. The MacLeas of Achilty were overwhelmed in the Great Battle of Bealach nam Broig in 1452.

I recently corresponded with David Sellar, Bute Pursuivant of Arms who wrote “I think I was mistaken as regards the Macleays of the North: the late Willie Matheson (perhaps the greatest 20th century Highland genealogist) told me that he disagreed with me about this, and I think that, as so often, he was right. Whether or not these northern Macleays are related to the Argyllshire Macleays, it would seem that they did indeed take their surname from an ancestor named “Donnsleibhe”, and not, as I suggested, from one of the Beaton physicians.”

The Surname Project shows research conducted by Professor Paul Longley, Professor Richard Webber and Dr Daryl Lloyd of University College London (UCL) that investigated the distribution of surnames in Great Britain, both current and historic. I found this interesting and wrote

The MacLeay’s in 1881 are very small in number (only 2% of the total Livingston/Livingstone/MacLeay population) and are centred around Inverness.

Now Strathconnon and Contin are very much in the Inverness area.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Remko and Baron Livingstone,

I have been following the DNA results of almost all of the Livingstones/Livingstones of documented Western Argyllshire ancestral origin over the last ten years who contacted our Forum or me and who took the familytree DNA test and can say quite honestly that virtually most of them for reasons not yet known match with three DNA groups within the familytreedna project which for simplicity sake I have identified over the years as Western Argyll Bachuil Lismore and Appin group A,Western Argyll Mull and Morvern (Achnacree?) Group B and Western Argyll Dr. Livingstone Mull and Islay Group C. The most well known Livingston matches with each of these Y chromosome DNA test groups with highland Argyllshire origin is with Group A the Bachuil Livingstones connected to St. Molaug, Group B Donald Livingstone 1728-1816 who rescued the Appin regiment during the Battle of Culloden in 1746. His brother Hugh's descendant of an Achabegg, Morvern Livingston family descended from Donald brother Hugh was tested in 2016 and is a match with Group B. Finally the third group I have identified consists of a documented great nephew of Dr. David Livingstone descended from the Doctor's older brother John Livingstone whom I sponsored for the test in 2009. To my surprise and to Andrew and Kyle's, Dr. Livingstone's brothers family group and related Livingston branches representing several other Livingstons with Islay, Argyll origins and other nearby origins give us an unexpected third group. And this being said of all the documented Western Argyllshire Livingstons with familiy parish records from the 18th and 19th century that I done family history work with since 2004 only one has not been a match with one of these three groups. So I think this knowledge and the test results themselves prove that these three familytreedna group exists. Nothing in these results was expected, but for reasons as yet not completely understood there are these three predominate DNA groups which Livingstones/Livingstons documented Western Argyll Livingstone/Livingston families are matching with. I know because I kept track of as many as I could over the last ten years and in a number of cases helped them with family history or later had access to their family history from what Andrew had found out.

The other thing that I learned from the DNA results is that the closest situation where a Livingston matches a Ross and Cromarty or should I say a Ullapool/Lochbroom Macleay from North Western Scotland is only in the case of two Livingstons whom apparently did not submit any details of Livingston family history to Andrew Lancaster our DNA project administrator in the past I don't think. Andrew did however notice there was some sort of match with a Ross and Cromarty Macleay or should say an Ullapool Macleay. Some of these Macleays have a history with Clan Mackenzie and I understand as the Baron has stated thought to be connected to our own Macleas who later became known Livingstones in Western Argyllshire. I don't know given that only two Livingstons are matching with a Macleay what can prove about the apparent match but I going to see if I can make contact with these two Livingstons who matched with the Macleay you mentioned Remko and see if I see if they have any information that might give us some insight as to why they are matching with these Macleays when all of the Western Argyllshire I am familiar with from the three groups mentioned are not matching with these Macleays you mention. I went into this sceptical of the DNA project in the early days and in the ultimate irony I seem to have done a 360 turnaround to now being perhaps its biggest supporter next to Andrew. Sometimes history does not easily give away it secrets so it unlikely as clan historian I will ever be able to explain to the clan why those Livingstons of Western Argyll origin are almost all matching with just three DNA groups instead of just one, I just know that is apparently so given a close study I have made of the results of most of the Livingtones of western Argyll origin. I believe that there are and will be for certain some documented Livingstones of western Argyll Livington origin who do not match with any of the three DNA groups but they would be just a relatively small number I think we will find out in the years to come. Right now oddly enough I only know of one Livingston of documented Western Argyll Lvingstn ancestry who I did research for who was not a match with one of the above mentioned three Livingston DNA groups.

So far that seems what the familytreedna results for Livingston of documented Western Argyll Livingstons are showing. And so far I am not seeing I regret to say strong indicators that our Western Argyll Livingstons are matching with those descended from Ullapool/Lochbroom North Western Scotland Macleays and the two Livingstons that are matching are unidentified as yet as to ancestral origins. But I am going to try and get more info on these two Livingstons if possible and get back to you on this Remko. In closing may i say once again how excited I am for you having proven your ancestral connection to a Scottish family of Macleays through DNA testing as you have. And enjoyed learning about your familes interesting connection to the Scottish Macleays.

regards,

Donald