Bachuil Big Y-700 DNA test

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Bachuil
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Bachuil Big Y-700 DNA test

Post by Bachuil »

Ian Fraser and Andrew Lancaster have asked me to post this:

Introduction:

This summary is designed to provide information with respect to the Livingston/MacLea Project with particular focus on the Bachuil Group. The reason that such a summary is warranted is because the Chief of the Clan has recently completed a Big Y-700 DNA test. This has provided important information in understanding the ancestral DNA history of this group, by making it easier to judge which other families are related closest to them.

Observations of the Baron’s results

The test results for the Baron provides a great opportunity to better define the ancestral lines of the MacLea/Livingston Clan.

It is an interesting first observation, two of the Baron's Big Y-700 matches have the surname of Fraser or the USA derivative of Frazier. Whilst Ian Fraser’s Short Tandem Repeats (STR) results are believed to be convergent, the similarity is worth exploring.

NB: It could be that a group of MacLea/Livingston/e's has migrated eastwards into Fraser lands (not sure when) and have ultimately adopted the name Fraser or, after migrating to the USA, a derivative of that surname being Frazier.

What is the "Big Y-700" test: It is a more advanced test that is offered by Family Tree DNA (FTDNA). They describe it as such: "The Big Y is a Y-chromosome direct paternal line test. FTDNA has designed it to explore deep ancestral links on our common paternal tree. This test examines thousands of known branch markers as well as millions of places where there may be new branch markers." https://learn.familytreedna.com/y-dna-t ... g-y/big-y/ The test is focused on discovering SNP markers, but also includes all the markers from the older STR tests (Y12, Y25, Y37, Y67 & Y111) as well as hundreds more STR markers.

What is a Haplogroup: According to FTDNA, a Haplogroup is defined as “Every male individual who takes one of our Y-DNA tests will also receive their Y-DNA haplogroup…….Over many generations, each group developed distinct mutations allowing us to identify one from the other. We call these groups of mutations haplogroups……... https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna

What are STR's: The name stands for “Short Tandem Repeat” markers. They are places on the chromosome where the DNA repeats itself. FTDNA has long provided a number of Y-STR tests and if you have the Big Y-700 test, a further 450 markers or so are tested. "The number of times it repeats is the value of the marker. Typical tests test between 12 and 111 STR markers. STRs mutate fairly frequently.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test.

One problem we have had in defining the matches of the Baron and his line has been STR “convergence”. Convergence can often give the appearance that two matches appear a lot more recently related than they are. For a detailed interpretation of convergence, the following website provides a good definition. https://dnaandfamilytreeresearch.blogsp ... is-it.html.

What are single-nucleotide polymorphism (SNP’s): A person's haplogroup can often be inferred from their STR results, but can only be proven with a Y-chromosome test (Y-SNP test). The Big Y-700 test is the only test that Family Tree DNA provides which will provide you with your Terminal SNP. Getting an SNP test allows a much higher resolution than STRs. It can be used to provide additional information about the relationship between two individuals and to confirm Haplogroups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test.

Essentially, whilst STR testing will provide an indicative result, it is only when an SNP test is completed that a Haplogroup can be confirmed. The Terminal SNP is the SNP that you test positive for and which appears furthest down the DNA tree, in other words, the closest to modern times.



Applying this to the Livingston/MacLea/Boggs Surname DNA Project - Bachuil Group

The current membership of the Bachuil Group in our project has recently been increased to seven with the current Baron of Bachuil being included. It is expected that a recent match with the surname of "George" will be included in this group. In furtherance, it is also believed that all current members, if they have not already tested positive for the SNP R-S764, would test positive. The following is a summary of the groups details;

Kit No: IN91136 – The Baron recently received his Big Y-700 results. These results are significant because as the Clan Chief, he provides the baseline SNP & STR results from which membership to the Bachuil Group can be determined. The result was that the Baron's Terminal SNP is assigned as R-FT28897 and although he shares this SNP with a number of people, he is the only one that has it as a Terminal SNP. In other words, more recent SNPs have been discovered in the small number of other people with FT28897, but the Baron is not a part of any those small groups defined so far. Details are as follows. (These SNP mutations are named only when more than one person shares them.)

The Baron

L1335 > L1065 > Z16325 > S744 > S764 > BY3148 > FT28897

David George b.1730 and d.1782

L1335 > L1065 > Z16325 > S744 > S764 > BY3148 > FT28897 > FT30398

John Frazier b 1777 Ireland Washington C.1810 TN

L1335 > L1065 > Z16325 > S744 > S764 > BY3148 > FT28897 > FT30398 > FT29416

Walker Todd b. 1822

L1335 > L1065 > Z16325 > S744 > S764 > BY3148 > FT28897 > FT30398 > FT29416

Alexander Fraser b 1660 Inverness Scotland d 1702

L1335 > L1065 > Z16325 > S744 > S764 > BY3148 > FT28897 > FT30398 > FT29416

It is believed that Walker Todd is the son of John Frazier b 1777 so that effectively brings the matches down to three families. The Frazier/Todd connection is declared as Irish/USA with no reference to any Scottish ancestry. At this time, there is little information with regard to the ancestry of Alexander Fraser.

Kit No: 8652 - Alastair is the late father of the Baron and hence, even though he was only tested to Y37, it can be assumed that he shared the same Terminal SNP as the Baron.

Kit No: 7703 - Robert Roy, the late founder of this project, is likely to be, (with the obvious exception of his father Alastair), the Baron's closest match notwithstanding that he has only tested for the Y67 test. His Genetic Distance (GD) with both the Baron and his father is zero. An examination of the available family trees indicates that Robert Roy Livingston is the fourth cousin once removed of the Baron.

Kit No: 130593 - Michael Earnest L. was prior to June 2020 the only person in the project to have tested to the SNP of R-L1065 (the so-called Scots modal marker) but in June 2020, Ian Fraser also tested positive for this SNP. Michael had nominated his earliest known ancestor as Duncan Livingstone, born 1759.

Kit No: 107563 – Alan L. has only tested to the Y37 level but he has a GD result of 1 with the Baron, the Baron's father and Robert Roy. His earliest known confirmed ancestor is Hugh Livingstone who was born 1808 in Kilninian, Argyll. The parents of Hugh are believed to be Duncan Livingstone and Catherine McDonald. Duncan was born in Lismore.

Kit No: 17423 - Robert Alexander L. matches the Baron at Y67 with a GD3 result. His ancestry indicates that his ancestral line is from Achuoran, Lismore. The family has later moved to Glasgow before migrating to the USA.

Kit No: B414085 – Justin is the Baron’s closest DNA match and his documented ancestral history indicates an English/USA heritage. More research is warranted in order to establish where the Baron’s and Justin’s link occurs and how long ago it existed.

Kit No: 523693 – Ian Fraser is a distant match to the Baron. The likely common ancestor is with the SNP R-S764 which has a large number of matches. Ian Fraser's STR results are quite similar to the Baron's but given the age of the separate SNP's of both the Baron and Ian, it seems the close STR match is partly due to convergence. Ian’s Terminal SNP is different to the Baron’s.

*************
I hope this is of interest.
The Baron of Bachuil,
Coarb of St Moluag
Chief of MacLea
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Bachuil
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Re: Bachuil Big Y-700 DNA test

Post by Bachuil »

Ian Fraser sent me this http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

R-FT28897 is my SNP. So this is the migration path. Fascinating.Image


This ties in with the Declaration of Arbroath where it talks about the Journey from Scythia and the Milesian History - to an extent.
Most Holy Father, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. It journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage peoples, but nowhere could it be subdued by any people, however barbarous. Thence it came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to its home in the west where it still lives today.
The Baron of Bachuil,
Coarb of St Moluag
Chief of MacLea
Canadian Livingstone
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Re: Bachuil Big Y-700 DNA test

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hello Baron Livingstone,

I appreciate you passing on this latest info from Andrew Lancaster and Ian Fraser regarding your SNP results and other Fraser and Bachuil Livingstone related information. That SNP Tracker Ian sent you is very cool and I have had some fun with it the last couple of days testing it out. Would like to learn more about it and how it maps out the detailed routes and follows a genetic journey through time and comes up with the timeline for the SNP results and the genetic journey. I imagine it took a lot of work to create the SNP Tracker and I must also commend the person who developed this.

regards,

Donald
allanl
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Re: Bachuil Big Y-700 DNA test

Post by allanl »

hi, just to say I upgraded my test to 111. I am test no 107563 mentioned above. Hope this can give more information.
Canadian Livingstone
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Re: Bachuil Big Y-700 DNA test

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Alan.

That is great news. The familytree Y DNA upgrade to a total of 111 markers tested should help narrow down your closest Bachuil Y DNA match group matches among those who done the the Y111 test in the past. I think you will have access also to your closest match group matches with 67 markers tested. If so check both your closest Livingston matches at both the 111 and 67 marker testing level when you receive your results.

I see that your ancestor Hugh Livingston that married Mary Mceachern resided at a tenant farm at Lephein in 1841 according to the 1841 census and at that time he is living with his widowed mother Catharine or Katharine and his youngest brother Charles also born at Lephein in Kilninian Parish is also living with them. I see that the original birth or baptism records of his brothers Duncan 1812, John 1816 and Charles 1818 all state that their parents Duncan Livingston and Catharine McDonald are of Lephein in Kilninian Parish. but most interestedly the information from the original Kilninian Parish, Mull indicate for elder son Neil born or baptized in 1811 that in 1811 his parents Duncan Livingston and Catharine McDonald are from Morvern Parish.

I tried several times via Scotlands People but I could not locate an original Church of Scotland record for Hugh Livingston's birth or baptism in 1808 in the Argyllshire Church of Scotland records but can see from the later 1841 Census that your Hugh is almost certainly a son of Duncan Livingston and his wife Catharine McDonald and an older brother of his youngest brother Charles who is residing at their farm in Lephein Kilninian Parish in Mull in 1841 along with their widowed mother Catharine age 50. The oldest child of Duncan Livingston and Catharine McDonald however I could locate in the Argyllshire records via Scotlands people was as mentioned a brother Neil 1811.

Not uncommon for Western Argyllshire Maclea Livingstone families to move around from Mull and neighbouring Morvern for various reasons. Your Y DNA results however do no genetically link you the to original ancestors of the Maclea Livingstone families that resided for the most part in either Mull or Morvern but clearly you are matching with the old Maclea Livingstone Bachuil Livingstone family group connected ancestrally to our Clan Chief and his ancestors and those Livingstone's found particularly on the Isle of Lismore and neighbouring Appin Parish. But as I say Livingstone tenants from time to time relocated to other neighbouring parishes. The Y DNA results and some surviving parish and census records certainly indicate some migration of Livngstones in Western Argyllshire from parish to parish. Not surprising given that a tenant farmer in Western Argyllshire often had a number of sons and usually very small plot of land not able to accommodate all of his sons and their family.

Whatever the story and origins of Duncan Livingston father of your ancestor Hugh Livingston, although there is not much in the way of definite info on him regrettably that can be proven, your Y DNA test leaves little doubt that Duncan Livingston's ancestral roots were linked to the Bachuil Livingstones connected to Lismore and neighbouring Appin Parish and not to vast majority of Livingstone ancestors of those who resided in the 18th and 19th century in Mull and neighbouring Morvern Parish. My Livingston cousin was match not with the Bachuil Livingstone Y DNA match group but another Y DNA match group which the majority of those tested were of or ancestrally connected to Maclea Livingstones families that resided in Mull and neighbouring Morvern and other adjacent parishes. That is not to say however that some Livingstones when tested whose ancestors resided in Mull and possibly neighbouring Morvern won't to a positive match from time to time with the Bachuil Lismore Y DNA match. That appears to be the case with you. There are always some exceptions I would expect with any pattern that is apparent from Y DNA results of those descended from Western Argyllshire Maclea Livingstone

As I may have earlier mentioned a great nephew of Dr. David Livingstone did the Famliytreedna Y DNA test about 15 years ago and I know that he is a match with another Livingston Y DNA match group and not with the Bachuil Livingstone Y DNA group which you are a match for. So any internet family history linking your Duncan Livingston and his son Hugh of Kilninian Parish, Mull with Dr. Livingstone's family group is someone's speculation apparently and misinformation not based on fact. There is no Dr. Livingstone family documents indicating that Duncan Livingston married to Catharine McDonald was a son of Dr. Livingstone's grandparent's Neil Livingstone and Mary Morrison who were married in 1774 in Lettermore, Kilninian Parish, Mull. There is also no Y DNA evidence to support the notion that the Bachuil Livingstone share a paternal ancestry long ago with the old Calendar Livingston family. In fact Bachuil Livingstone paternal ancestors resided for centuries in Western Argyllshire and have been for centuries rooted there and before that in ancient Ireland.

You mentioned your famile's more recent connection with Morvern and Fiunary near Savary. Did you notice the last time you were in the Savary area if the ruins of the Savary Mill once operated by the famous Jacobite hero Donald Livingstone 1728-1816 and later his son Adam Livingston can be seen admidst the years of overgrowth and neglect?


regards,

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Historian
Maclea Livingstone Society
allanl
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Re: Bachuil Big Y-700 DNA test

Post by allanl »

thanks for that again. My tests have finished being processed with 2 matches on 111 - Niall Baron of Bachuil and Angus Duncan Campbell. Will have to explore the 67 markers as I have 178 matches there.

For Hugh Livingstone 1808 - I have the birth record (OPR births 544/0010 0140 Kilninian and Kilmore) with parents Duncan Livingstone and Catherine McDonald. I originally got this from scotland people. I can forward if you wish.
I have Hughs siblings as Neil 1811, Duncan 1812-1892, Margaret 1814-1892, John 1816, Charles 1818

Neil, John - I have never tracked down any information on
Charles I have in the 1841 census, then nothing else.

I have been trying again to find more information on Duncan Livingstone (hughs father). I still remember finding 2 people married with the name Duncan Livingstone and Catherine McDonald on the old website scotsorigins from the area their children were born. On the death certificates they have his occupation as farmer. I still see a lot of people having hughs father as a Duncan Livingstone that died at waterloo at 1815, but this does not tie in with his oldest child being born in 1818. I did try to find out more information on this Duncan to see what his occupation was, but havent found that yet.

If I have the correct saw mill that you mention (I will check with my father) then it was cleared and a modern, very small scale sawmill has now replaced it - SoundWood, Sawmill Wood, Savary, Morvern. Again I will have to check if this is in the same location. I plan to visit again this summer as I havent been up to this area in the last few years.
Canadian Livingstone
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Re: Bachuil Big Y-700 DNA test

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Alan,
That is great news you have received your results. What is the genetic distance listed for your one Livingstone 111 marker test match you mentioned? Also of interest the genetic distances listed for your 67 marker Livingston matches.

At 37 markers quite frequently close Livingston matches are a genetic distance of 1 but when you get the 111 markers tested if better defined just how close you earlier Livingston matches were and tends to reveal which are your Livingston or Livingstons closest matches and a more precise genetic distance. In the future if you really interested in pursuing this DNA research there is also a SNP test which some of those who are a Y DNA match with this Bachuil Livingstone Y DNA match group have done. It is somewhat complicated but as I understand it the SNP test with Familytree DNA helps to better define your genetic connection over the centuries with other Livingstons and some related families who have done this SNP test and helps to show SNP similarities and differences which ultimately will also further help to establish who are your closest matches.

The Duncan Livingston who is said to have died in 1815 in Waterloo is based on the story that a number of Dr. Livingstone's Uncles including one named Duncan died in 1815 at Waterloo. There is however no proof that I have seen. A grandson of Dr. Livingstone thought all of Dr. Livingstone's Uncles had died during the Napoleonic Wars.Dr. Livingstone only mentioned the death of his Uncle Charles who had been working at the woolen mill in Blantyre until he was pressed into the Navy during the Napoleonic War and died and buried at sea as well as all of Uncles served in the military during the Napoleonic Wars.

I would think a Livingstone family researcher has made the assumption without proof that your ancestor Hugh's father Duncan Livingston of Lephein, Kilninian Parish, Mull was a son of Duncan Livingston son of Dr. Livingstone's grandparents thought by some to have died in 1815 in Waterloo. They then put that info online I would assume it was passed on over time to other researchers working on their family trees perhaps. Your Y DNA results I think confirm that your ancestor Duncan Livingston was not Dr. Livingstone's Uncle as your marker results are significantly different than those of Dr. Livingstone's great nephew. Over the years the Forum has heard from Livingstone family researchers whose Livingston family has stories about their family sharing Livingston ancestry with Dr. Livingstone. None however had any compelling evidence to suggest this was likely the case.
.
There was host df a belief beginning in the nineteenth century that the Bachuil Livingstones and Dr. Livingstone's ancestors were kin and shared paternal Livingston ancestry. Both the Famlytreedna Y DNA tests and the SNP test results of a proven great nephew of Dr. Livingstone indicates that quite likely is not the case. It is also unlikely there is supporting evidence out there that Duncan Livingston husband of Catharine McDOnald of Lephein, Kilninian Parish, Mull was Duncan Livingston Dr. Livingstone's uncle and son of Neil Livingston Sr. and Mary Morrison of Mull. I really can't say how a researcher reached that conclusion. In my experience as Dr. David Livingstone family researcher for a number of years and other LIivngston families that resided throughout in Western Argyllshire in the 18th and 19tb century I have frequently while going through online family tree info seen many times Livingston descendants linking their Livingston family to one of the Uncles of Dr. Livingstone. My Livingstone cousin's closest Y DNA match is 67-1 with a Livingston whose ancestor in the early 1800's resided in Killundine, Morvern so it may be that my ancestor Miles Livingston was closely related to Morvern Livingston family branch that resided in the Killundine area in the late 1700's and early 1800's.

I was so thrilled to learn that your family had lived in more recent times in Morvern. My Great-great-great grandfather Miles Livingston b.1775 was a native of Morvern Parish according to his 1812 marriage record. Miles was a boatbuilder by trade and left for British North America (Canada) the year of his marriage hired by Lord Selkirk to build boat boats for settlers and employee at the colony he was established along the Red River in then western British North America in Hudsons Bay Company Territory. Later in 1815 Miles Livingston with his family settled in Upper Canada (Ontario) and a few years later was hired by the British Navy there as a ship builder for the Navy in Upper Canada.

I had my Livingston cousin tested around 2006 with the FamilytreeYDNA test and my Livingston cousin's closest Y DNA matches were 3 or 4 Livingstons of known Morvern Argyll Livingston ancestry. Apparently some elderly kin to Donald Livingston's brother Hugh (Ewen) Livingston of Savary who had in the first part of the 1800's in the United States passed on to a younger relative a lawyer and later family historian that the Savary Maclea Livingston ancestor were originally Achnacree Macleas (Argyll Livingstons old name) that left Benderloch, Achnacree, Argyll for nearby Morvern Parish around the year 1600. An early 1700 census covering Morvern Parish does indicate by that point in time that these Macleas or Mconleas as also referred themselves were located in a number of tenant settlements along the Morvern coast including Savary. So I think verifies that they situated in Morvern Parish well before the early 1700's and almost certainly earlier in the 1600's as the Livingston Morvern old-timers in America in the 1800's nieces and nephews of old Donald of Savary who had years later told their kin in America.

I know there is modern saw mill in the Savary area, but not where the ruins apparently are. The person who responded by inquiries at the present Savary area millI some years ago was not aware of the ruins of the 18th century mill at Savary.
I know one local Morvern historian said in the 1990's the old ruins of the 18th century mill at Savary were covered in brush and there was to be some effort to clean it up but I don't know if that ever happened. I may well be difficult to find. I think this local Morvern historian may know where it is. There is also or was a Morvern Historical Society but I never heard back from them regarding the status of the ruins of the mill at one time operated by the famous local Donald Livingston 1728-1816 and later apparently by one of his sons Adam.

Y DNA results of my Livingston cousin interestingly suggests he is 67 marker genetic distance of 3 with a descendant I had tested of Donald Livingston's brother Hugh (Ewen) Livingston of Savary who is listed with his brother Donald in the 1779 Argyll Census as a neighbour of his brother Donald Livingston. I think he is a genetic distance of 4 at 111 markers tested. Genetic distance tends to increase with the more markers you have tested for the most part. This Y DNA match group my Livingston cousin is match with consists of descendants of very large number Maclea Livingstones who resided in the 18th and 19th centuries at Mull neighbouring Morvern and other neighbouring parishes in Western Argyllshire.

regards,

Donald
allanl
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:40 am

Re: Bachuil Big Y-700 DNA test

Post by allanl »

Just the Baron and a Campbell at 111 markers. With the Baron being the closest with a distance of 6.

at 67 my closest is Robert Roy Livingston with a distance of 2.
I have 3 other matches -
Mr. Robert Alexander Livingstone
Mr. Michael Ernest Livingstone
Mr. Kenneth Graham Livingstone

I plan to go back up to Lochaline in July/Aug of this year. I spoke to my father today about the saw mill and he says it was very close to where the new one was, but the last time he looked there was very little left of the old one as it had been completely overgrown. Will have a look when I am up.

Also I remember reading a while back about a stone near Savary River that had some link to Donald Livingstone Do you know anything of this? Sorry for the lack of information, but it was a while ago that I read about about it.
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