New addition to the Bachuil group

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New addition to the Bachuil group

Postby George Macdonald » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:06 pm

The recent appearance of Mr Fraser’s result within the Bachuil group is an interesting development particularly because there are already three individuals bearing the names Fraser, Frasier and Frazier who have tested positive for the snp A6099 that falls under S756, one of the main branches of S764. These Fraser/Frasier/Fraizers share the snp A6099 with a Livingstone/MacLeay and a MacLean/MacLay as well as several other participants whose ancestors appear to have resided at one time in Mid Ross or within the Lovat and Chisholm estates, Inverness-shire, stretching from Strathconon in the north to Inverness and Glen Urquhart in the south. It is interesting that this is also the general area in which Mr Fraser’s ancestors resided.

Over the past few years a number of interested observers have suggested that the common ancestor of S764 may have lived about 600AD and most likely resided within the population group known to history as the Cenel Loairn. They point to the fact that the majority of the members of Clan MacRae and a large portion of Clan MacPherson (both suspected Cenel Loairn clans) have tested positive for snps falling within branches that fall below S764. As far as I can see this suggestion is even clearer in the branching below S756 for at the present time there are three branches that have been identified as follows.

The oldest and by far the largest branch is headed by the snp Z16328 which arose within a common ancestor that lived about 1000AD. This is the branch to which Mr Mikkenie [Makelij] of our Scots R1b group belongs – older readers of the forum will remember that his ancestor was a Scottish soldier that settled in the Netherlands and whose earlier name was pronounced in the Netherlands as Mac-a-lay. This branch consists of a number of families that carry recognisable Argyllshire surnames or the surnames of the leading families of that area (Campbell, Stewart, Ferguson). Also there appears to be a number of individuals with ancestors that migrated from Argyllshire to Northern Ireland at some point in the past.

The second largest branch is headed by the snp A6099 and is said to have had a common ancestor about the year 1100AD. This branch has a north eastern focus and is the branch referred to above in my opening paragraph.

The third branch is headed by the snp BY25527 and is thought to have also had a common ancestor dating to around 1000AD. It consists of two men with the surname MacKay from Sutherland. Clan MacKay tradition asserts that their 13th century ancestors were originally settled alongside the MacRaes in the same general area as the second branch above, before the leading members of their family were moved to Sutherland by the Crown.

It is certainly tempting to view these results as supporting what is known about the recorded history of the Cenel Loairn, some of whom, from the 9th century onwards, started to migrate into the Province of Moray which at times embraced the area described above, and where, in the 11th century, they appear as leading men within that province. I dare say that the picture is a bit more complicated than that but it is interesting to note how the results so far are tending to follow what is generally known about the Cenel Loairn.

Before leaving this subject I think it is important to point out that up until the 18th century surnames were not in common use within the Highlands and generations of a family line will have been known to their contemporaries simply by their patronymics which often included the name of an illustrious ancestor, a personal characteristic or some activity with which members of that family were associated. When it came to adopting a surname in the 18th century some of these families will have retained a better memory of their roots than others and some will have gone out of their way to assert and record their original clan affiliation, while others will have simply taken the surname of the landholding clan with whom generations of their family were associated through continued occupation of the landholding clan’s land and through defending the landholding clan’s interests.

I recently completed a family tree for a friend of mine that highlights how often this occurred. This man’s ancestors were known by the early surname of McIldonich/Mcoldonich and resided on Lord Lovat’s estate and before that were anciently settled on the neighbouring Chisholm estate in Strathglass where they were said to have assisted the Chisholm in settling a ‘knotty problem’ (whatever that involved). His family, in common with the majority of the Mcildonicks/Mcoldonichs within the general district, took the name Cameron, for reasons that are not clear at the present time but perhaps due to some ancient connection with the Lochaber district. However, other members of clan Mcildonich, who were settled on the Chisholm estate took the name Chisholm, and others who were settled on the adjoining Lord Lovat’s estate ended up taking the name Fraser. In this particular man’s case it is interesting to point out that the men in his family line all married Fraser women, so from a genetic point of view it could be argued that he had more Fraser blood flowing in his veins than anything else.

These territorial influences need to be taken into account when assessing our immediate snp matches for it is easy to envisage how the descendants of a 16th century man bearing the name Dunsleibhe, or with a patronymic ending in Mconlea would intermarry with other families within the district and his progeny would be identified as belonging to the seed or tribe of Dunsleibhe, or the descendants of Mconlea, however, as the centuries rolled on some of his later descendants would move further afield and develop their own distinctive patronymics. Then when it came to the 18th century, it is conceivable that a number of Mconlea’s descendants would very likely take the name MacKenzie, MacKay, Fraser, Chisholm, etc., if the family lived in the north east, or Campbell, MacDougall, Stewart, MacLean, Ferguson, etc., if they lived in Argyllshire. On the other hand some of Mconlea’s descendants would have been more tenacious in retaining their early identity and would have expressed the name Mconlea in the shortened forms of McLea, McLeay, McLay, depending on whichever spelling was adopted in the district.

………………………………………………………...

It appears that Mr Fraser’s result is more closely aligned with the Bachuil group than with the individuals that have tested positive for A6099, however, the project results page appears to suggest that the Bachuil group participants have not yet embarked on snp testing. Looking at their STR readings it is conceivable that they may also fall within one or other of the branches below S756. I would like to take this opportunity to encourage anyone from within the Bachuil group – and indeed anyone from within the Scots R1b group – to consider taking a further step on their DNA journey by undertaking the BigY. I appreciate it is rather expensive but the last two sales have certainly brought the price down to a more affordable level and the more participants of our DNA project that undertake a snp test the greater will be our understanding of how the various branches of the Highland Livingstones evolved.

I hope there is something of interest in the above and apologise if anything is wide of the mark.

George H Macdonald
George Macdonald
 
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Re: New addition to the Bachuil group

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:32 am

Hi George,
Welcome to the Forum. Glad to see everything worked out in the end. I thought I should mention that there was last time I checked the familytreedna SNP L1335 Project info, actually at least one Livingston originating from the familytreedna" Bachuil" Livingston Y chromosome DNA match group with a neighbouring Port Appin, Argyll Livingston ancestry with SNP test results matching SNP known as L1335 and most importantly he is a close Y DNA marker match to Baron Livingstone of Bachuil, Lismore and other close matches in the familytreedna "Bachuil" Y chromosome DNA match group. He likely sharing an earlier ancestry before Port Appin, Argyll I suspect with the Bachuil Livingstons prior to the family being located in the 18th century in nearby Port Appin which is very close to the Isle of Lismore where Bachuil is situated. He is also listed with the L1335 familytreedna group website where he acknowledges a likely ancestral connection to a Duncan Livingston 1759 of Lismore. I have no doubt that his 19th century Port Appin, Argyll Livingston likely resided at an earlier point in time in the 18th century in neighbouring Lismore and his marker results with the Y DNA test are very close to that of our Clan Chief Baron Livingstone. The Baron has not yet done the familytreedna SNP test as yet but this other Livingston matching with the Baron's Bachuil Y DNA Match group with ancestral roots to neighbouring Port Appin near the Isle of Lismore and a close Y DNA match with Baron Livingstone did the SNP test and the results indicate that the Bachuil Lismore/Appin Y DNA group are very likely all L21>DF13>L1335>L1065 like that of the one Livingston of the Bachuil Y DNA match group who has done the familytreedna test. I did some research over the years with some descendants of this Livingston family that resided in Port Appin, Argyll and later in the 1800's settled in Canada so I am familiar with their family history and was not surprised when one of the descendants of this Port Appin, Argyll Livingston that settled in Canada was a relatively close Y DNA match with Baron Livingstone of Bachuil and part of familytreedna Y DNA match which was referred as the Bachuil Group or Lismore Group. I would assume that the several Livingstons so far matching with this familytreedna match group definitely share a ancestral connection with old Bachuil Maclea Livingstone family that has lived for many centuries on the Isle of Lismore. As I recall everyone was in agreement on that point in the past.

It is interesting to note that family treedna SNP L1335 has a known equivalent S530 from other SNP testers which has been referred to by some Scottish genetic researchers as the "Pict gene". The theory that S530 (L1335) is a possible indicator of Pict origin was in the Scottish newspapers several years ago, but there is some debate whether those who test positive with the S530 or it's equivalent SNP L1335 are actually of Scottish Pict ancestry or of some other group of Irish celts that settled in Western Argyllshire in 6th century A.D.

I can't really say one way or another as I really don't know for certain ,regarding this S530 (L1335) Scottish Pict origin or some other Irish Celt origin debate, but given that one of Baron Livingstone's closest Livingston DNA test matches with his family tree DNA match group was a SNP match for L1335 (also known as S530) and the subgroup of L1065 there is an excellent possibility that Baron Livingstone and the Livingstones in DNA test Match group will almost certainly be positive for L1335 whatever Celtic origin those matching with SNP L1335 may be. At this point i think it just a matter of another Livingston in the Bachuil Lismore (and neighbouring Appin) Livingston Familytree DNA match group doing the SNP test, but those Livingston in this group with a similar pattern of DNA marker results I am pretty certain would be SNP L1335 if they were to do the test as there marker results with 67 markers tested are relatively close. The only hurdle for me to prove definitely that others in the familytreedna Bachuil Livingstone match group are a match with SNP L1335 is the expense of the test, but I just wanted to you to know that one of the Livingstones with a close DNA marker matches with the Baron of Bachuil is a match with SNP L1335 and the subgroup L1065 if that is any help to your own research.

One of the other clans that are also of some match with this same family tree DNA Y chromosome match group and are apparently also SNP L1335 are Buchanans. Some families by that name also lived on the Isle of Lismore for many years. It is easier said than done getting people to do the rather costly SNP tests, but I am hoping that at least one more Livingston in familytreedna Bachuil Livingstone Y chromosome test match Group does SNP in the future as is looking like this one group of Western Argyllshire is most likely all a match the SNP L1335 and likely the subgroup L1065.

Other Livingstons with known and documented nearby Mull and Morvern, Argyll Livingston ancestry and from Islay Livingston ancestry in Southern Argyllshire when tested almost all seem to be a Y chromosome match with two other Y chromosome DNA match groups interestingly in the last 15 years and those who had done SNP testing in these two group also show different SNP results to that of Familytreedna Bachuil Livingstone Y chromosome DNA Match group.

There are a number of other Livingstons in the familytreedna Y chromosome tests who have other origins other than Argyllshire and who again have entirely different Y chromosome marker matches than the predominate three Y chromosome match groups that I found are most common to those Livingstons of known and documented 18th and 19th Argyllshire origin. The Mcleays that have tested possibly with Ross and Cromarty origin or some location nearby that I noticed with familytreedna aren't matching with the three predominate Y chromosome DNA match groups connected to Livingstons of known and documented Argyll Livingston ancestry. I unfortunately am not familiar with the Livingston/Macleay you mention or know of his family history in Scotland.

It is interesting that there is a Livingstone/Macleay that is positive for SNP A6099. This SNP however is not one that I am aware is a match with any of the Maclea Livingstones and other Livingston families of documented Argyllshire origin I have been studying and working with. I think they are likely connected to the McLeays that resided in Ross and Cromarty and not the Maclea Livingstones I have seen in most of the Y Chromosome tests results connected to Western and Southern Argyllshire that i am most familiar with. It would be interesting to know more about Livingstone/Macleay's family origins in Scotland to get better sense of things. I don't think a DNA connection can be made with the Macleays of Ross and Cromarty and the Maclea Livingstones Western and Southern Argyll that I have studied for the last 15 years even though it is thought that a family connection of some sort existed. So far I think I am getting the impression that the DNA results are likely indicating otherwise I am sorry to say.

regards,

Donald
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Re: New addition to the Bachuil group

Postby George Macdonald » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:24 pm

Hi Donald,

Thank you very much for your reply to my post and for your insights about the various McLea/ McLay/McLeay family groupings within the DNA project.

I tend to agree with you that the Bachuill group and a large number of the Scots group are likely to test positive for L1335 and I think it is highly likely that they will also test positive for the more recent snp L1065 which falls below L1335. After that it's anybody's guess for it is very difficult to predict which snps a person will test positive for due to what they call convergence. This is the tendency of STR markers to change back and forth and, purely by chance, someone who is not at all closely related can end up appearing to be a close match. In order to get the most out of DNA testing it is desirable for anyone who has taken a STR test to go one step forward and undertake a snp test such as the BigY as convergence is not an issue with snp testing. Once formed they are pretty stable and it is possible to eliminate the false matches and identify lines of descent by following the progression of snps that are formed on average about every three generations.

To illustrate this one only has to look at the clan Buchanan results on Alex Williamson's BigY tree for they appear to have enthusiastically embraced snp testing and their results can be viewed on the following page:

https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?b ... star=false

I agree that the cost of a BigY test is expensive and it is best to wait until they have one of their sales to save on the cost which under the most recent sale was $259 to upgrade from Y-67 to the BigY 700, or $399 for someone starting from scratch. The relatively inexpensive alternative is to compare your closest STR results and test for individual snps that you suspect you might test positive for based on other peoples snp results, however, this is very much a guessing game and even if you hit it lucky you will end up with only part of the picture as you will not know the snps that are personal to you alone and for which another match has not yet been found.

For those in this group who have not already done so it is worthwhile joining the R1b-L1335 project hosted by FTDNA as the administrator usually posts a reference to new members on their 'activity feed' and supplies a Nevgen prediction of the likely snps you will carry and your extended haplogroup. By visiting the 'Activity feed' from time to time you will also see the results as they come in and the commentary from the administrators and the participants. There is also an independant Facebook page for L1335 of a more general nature which is a mixed source of related material and an avenue for viewing the opinions of others.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1120157664745991/

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As far as I can see there are within the DNA project at least five individuals who have tested positive for L1065 and who have undertaken deeper testing.

The first of these is Livingston (510569) who is a more distant match to the others and probably shares an ancestor with the others at some point between 150-600 AD. Unfortunately it appears that very few individuals from this man's line have undertaken snp testing and his closest match appears to be with a gentleman that bears the surname May. I do not know how close a match this represents or indeed anything about the origins of this May family concerned but it is interesting to note that at least some of the people that bear the May surname are said to descend from the Ui Miadhaigh clerical family that were active in Kintyre and Knapdale, Argyllshire. A branch of this family migrated to Perthshire during the 16th century where the name underwent a shortening from Omay to May.

The other four follow the same line of descent to the snp S756 (1000 AD) when they diverge, with Makelij (181810) following an early branch (1000 AD) that consists of families that appear to have roots in Argyllshire, and the other three following a later branch (1100 AD) that consists of families that connect to the northeast of Scotland, particularly the area to the west of the city of Inverness and mid Ross.

I (Macdonald 145402) appear to share an ancestor with MacLean/McLay (28652) and Livingstone/McLeay (164403) at some point after 1100 AD (the relevant block of snps has not been aged) but my closest match is with a gentleman named Chisholm with whom my family shares an ancestor about the year 1550 AD. What this appears to be telling me is that by the 16th century our ancestor was most likely part of the native population of that district and that at least two of his descendants adopted the surnames of the two major landowning families within that district, with whom they probably had a long standing connection. All three of us carry the extremely rare 13 at marker GATA H4 and there are two more participants within the Scots group that carry this same result, they are McLeay (258139) and ......... (21629) who have not as yet embarked on DNA testing. When we consider that the ancestor of Livingstone/McLeay (164403) resided in Applecross, Ross-shire, and also that Mr Chisholm's ancestor resided at Muir of Ord, Ross-shire, and my ancestor lived above the village of Beauly which lies on the border of Ross-shire a few miles away from Mr Chisholm's ancestor, then it would be reasonable to assume a connection to the MacLeays of Strathconon, however the picture is complicated by the fact that, according to the project results background page, McLeay (21629) is understood to have a connection with the McLeas of Achnacree and MacLean/McLay (28652) had an ancestor that resided in Dunfermline in the 17th century, so it is very difficult to come to any firm conclusion but I'm sure that through time the true picture will emerge.

One word of caution - please do not take the above dates as definitive they are simply one company's calculation of the possible date that two participants share an ancestor and as more results are revealed these dates will be refined in the light of more information.

George H Macdonald
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Re: New addition to the Bachuil group

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:07 pm

Hi George,
Appreciate your insightful comments and your area of Scottish family research info that you have been working on for sometime now. There is much in your research to digest here and contemplate and I must take some time to become more familiar with the broad scope of your highland research which goes somewhat beyond my area of research, but is really quite interesting to read.

I think once another person from that Famlytreedna "Bachuil" Livingstone Y Chromosome DNA match group eventually does the SNP test, I will probably be on more solid ground in terms of my belief that all of that group are likely of the SNP L1335 and the subclade L1065, but certainly the Y DNA marker matches amongst that group of Livingstons of highland Argyllshire origin most of Lismore ancestry apparently makes I think SNP L1135 and L1065 almost a slam dunk. (At least I hope so.)The Livingstone of the "Bachuil" Livingstone Y Chromosome DNA test group includes so far several Livingstone's ancestrally connected to the old Bachuil Lismore Maclea-Livingstone family of the Clan Chief including one Livingston of known Port Appin, Argyll ancestry and very likely of neighbouring Isle of Lismore ancestry before that. His Y DNA Chromosome marker results were identified by familytreedna as being consistent with the rest of this group including the Clan Chief. As earlier mentioned he is only one that I know of that has done the SNP test of that "Bachuil" Maclea-Livingstone Familytreedna Y chromosome match group and he is listed as being SNP L1335<L1065 an old Highland Scots SNP apparently that includes some Lismore Buchanans and other old Scottish families. Some of the other old highland family chiefs of some clans I have heard are said to be of SNP L1335, but I have not done in any research into that.
I am including the lengthy L1335 Familytreedna List organized in groups. If you scroll down a way you will come a large group of SNP L1335 Scots which starts with a McCormick and the list is highlighted in red. Going a down a ways on with this L1335-L1065 group will see one Livingstone listed beside a Buchanan. Some Buchanans I know lived on the Isle of Lismore and were an old family on the Isle of Lismore and the local area in Western Argyllshire. As I said, I am fairly confident that the rest of the several Livingstons of the "Bachuil" Maclea-Livingstone mostly of Lismore origins are likely to be likewise positive for the SNP L1335 and it's subclade L 1335 if any of them in the future were the also do the SNP testing, based on the fact all of their 67 Y chromosome marker results when compared marker by marker are all relatively close matches.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1 ... e=yresults

In terms of the Y chromosome DNA testing and the SNP testing I must confess my area of focus in terms of Highland Scottish clans regarding the Y Chromosome test results has been primarily those of Maclea Livingstones whose Maclea-Livingstone ancestors resided in the parishes of Western Argyllshire in the 18th and 19th centuries and well before that who contacted me with family research notes, Argyllshire Church of Scotland Parish records or Scottish census records. My interest in the Maclea-Livingstones of Western Argyllshire developed out of interest in my own Livingston ancestor who was a boatbuilder, a native of the Morvern parish, Argyll hired by an highland agent of the Scottish Lord Selkirk around 1811 to build boats for settlers in Selkirk's Red River Colony in what was in Hudson's Bay Company territory. He left Scotland in June of 1812 never to return, with other employees and colonists of Lord Selkirk. In 1814 my Livingston ancestor had his first home in the new world built of logs floated down the Red River to the settlement situated along the Red River in what is present day Winnipeg, Mantitoba, Canada. Later in 1815 he and his family along with a large of the colonists abandoned the settlement at Red River because of problems there and settled in Upper Canada where in 1819 he received a 100 acre land grant from the Government of Upper Canada.

My interest in my Western Argyllshire Maclea Livingstone ancestry began originally in the late 1990's when I began doing extensive genealogy research of my own Argyllshire Livingston ancestor who came to then British North America in 1812 and eventually in 2004 discovered the Clan Maclea Livingstone Forum and in time became interested in our Clan's DNA research efforts begun by Baron Livingstone's American cousin, the late Rob Livingstone. I was in the beginning somewhat sceptical of the benefits of the Y Chromosome testing, but eventually I came around to see it as something of great value in helping Livingstones/Livingston from a number of ancient family origins in Scotland which ancient family group that originated from. Soon after the testing of Livingstons with the familytreedn Y chromosome test began to gain in momentum and in the numbers of Livingstons (and Macleas, Macleays etc.) tested it became apparent that many Livingstones/Livingstons did not share a common paternal Livingston or Maclea ancestor as I think was earlier suspected. I began my own effort to try an make some sense in my mind of the results or at least some of them that pertained in particular to the Maclea Livingstone of Western Argyllshire and those descendants I was familiar with from the genealogy research and from the DNA project and made note of any pattern or anything of significance that stood out from the DNA test results worthy of further study. It was very soon clear that the DNA results for the Western Argyllshire Maclea Livingstones were not at all in line with what was anticipated by Rob and others.

My thoughts at that time were all the more important then to take a closer look at the results of the three predominate Y DNA match groups of known 18th and 19th Argyllshire Livingston origin and find out as much a possible as to the historical origins of the Livingstons matching each of the three predominate Y DNA match groups and see if anything of significance can be learned from that. I did in fact find some significant differences among their Argyllshire Livingston ancestors that I felt worth noting and did so. The Y DNA testing I think confirmed not only that were a significant number Livingstons that were tested that were not matching with those of Argyllshire origins but did not have a history of being connected to highland Argyllshire. I knew or suspected that there lowland Livingston families who were not connected ancestrally to Argyllshire Livingstons so this did not surprise too much, but more interesting to me was that testing of those Livingstons whom we had records of their family having lived in Argyllshire for a few centuries or more could be divided themselves into three distinct Y DNA match groups. I have worked with family info of a lot of Argyllshire LIvingstons over the years but only one or two Livingstons of known Argyllshire Livingston ancestry that did the DNA project and were working with me on family research at one time or another over the last 15 years has not been a match of one of three Argyllshire Livingston YDNA match groups with the FAmilytreedna Y chromosome DNA test. And one group of the three in particular has the largest number of matches mostly of Mull, neighbouring Morvern and some other nearby parishes in the Western Argyllshire vicinity including near the border with Inverness-shire not far from Fort William. I am looking into the possibility that a few families of Livingstons from the Morvern or Mull area migrated into nearby Ardgour and Kilmallie Parish area near Argyllshire's border with Inverness-shire in the 1700's. In makes sense given the close proximity of Ardgour to Morvern Parish. One of the earliest Argyllshire Livingston families that settled in Canada settled in about 1791 in Nova Scotia and were of Kimallie Parish, Argyllshire origin, but I have not been able find a known and proven Livingston descendant to do the Y Chromosome DNA test as yet. A number of other descendants of other early Argyllshire livingston descendants however have done the familytreedna test and sure enough all were a definite match with one of the three Argyllshire Livingston familytreedna Y chromosome match groups I am mentioning.

Regarding the Livingstones/Livingstons of Argyllshire ancestry their results proved most interesting and perhaps most significantly consistently followed a pattern for the most part. And every time I saw that pattern in the results when another person was tested sure enough the same pattern to the results occurred time after time with almost all Livingstons of documented 18th or 19th century Western Argyllshire Livingstone/Livingston ancestry. Knowing and having access in many cases to the Scottish records of family histories of many of the Western Argyllhshire Livingstons who were tested by familytreedna helped to put the pieces of a puzzle together as did the DNA test results I think. Most importantly almost every time a Livingstone/Livingston of known and documented Western Argyllshire ancestry was tested by familytreedna to my surprise in the last 15 years almost always matched with just three famliytreedna Match group though there are a number recorded DNA matches overall with all of the diverse Livingstons tested of world wide origin in the last 15 years.

This as very surprising to me but was even more surprising and significant is in that almost all the time Livingstones/Livingstons of Mull and neighbouring Morvern ancestry for some odd reasons tested in the last 15 years with familytreedna matched with their own distinctive Western Argyllshire Y Chromosome DNA match group and not with the "Bachuil" Livingstone as their marker results are different. With the familytreedna test groups this became known in our Clan group as the Parker Livingston group because on the early persons tested was interestedly a Parker of known or suspected Livingston family ancestry who was known or suspected to have been adopted by a neighbouring Parker family. Long story but that is how the second and larger Argyllshire Maclea Livingstone DNA group became referred to as the Parker Livingston group in the familytreedna project. See list below for a list of the some but by now means all of those tested and matching with the Parker Livingston or Parker Livi group which includes my own Livingston cousin of Morvern Livingston ancestry whom I had tested around 2006. This second group includes my Livingston cousin of Morvern Argyll Livingstone ancestry, a descendant of the Savary, Morvern LIvingstons said to originally of the old Achnacree Mcleas forced out of Achnacree by the Campbells in the late 1500' who settled at Savary, Morvern around 1600 according to 19th century family accounts. Also in this second Western argyllshire Maclea Livingstone DNA match group with familytreedna a whole lot of Livngstons of neighbouring Mull, Argyllshire ancestry that like the Modern Maclea Livingstons are not most interestingly genetically matching with those in the first group the "Bachuil" Maclea Livingstone match group I mentioned. The ancestor of these two group however shared similar Celtic Irish ancestry and were among the early families that were part of the settlement of Western Argyllshire during the 6th century A.D and at sometime between then and the middle ages I think it is possible that the ancestors of most of the Maclea Livingtons that resided in Mull and morvern in the 18th and 19th centuries must have been adopted by the chiefly family at Bachuil. That is best explanation to explain these two primary Maclea Livingstone DNA match groups and how their ancestors obviously became one big happy family in Western Argyllshire at some time in our remote past which became in more recent times Clan Maclea LIvignstone of Western Argyllhire.

Finally there was a third group of Livingstons who resided primarily in Southern Argyllshire but not exclusively in Southern Argyllshire from about the 17th century and into the 19th century which I believe have a very different origin to that the Bachuil Lismore Maclea LIvignstone group and the Mull and Morvern Maclea Livingstones ancestors I mentioned from the DNA testing results. And their DNA results and the other old Scottish families they match and their DNA results I think confirm their distinct origins before Argyllshire that differs from that of the Bachuil and Mull Morvern (Parker Livingston) familytreedna Y chromosome match group. The third group is also the most challenging to explain but the answer I think it quite clear from the origins of those matching this group if one studies and one has knowledge of more recently British history which greatly impacted the origins and understanding to this most interesting third Livingston Y DNA match with an Argyllshire connection. Of particular interest is the fact that a Scotch Irish Livingston family group of County Down Ulster origin that settled in Georgia in the 1700's is also a relatively close match with the Livingstons in this group as are a number of other known Scotch Irish families who indicated in their family bio that they are also or Scotch Irish Ulster origin. I found out that a number of lowland scottish families that were intending on settling in the 1600's in Ulster Ireland in fact decided to settle or were encouraged to settle in land made available to them probably by the Campbells on the nearby Isle of Islay which not far from the northern coast of Ulster, Ireland. So a possible 17th century Scottish Livingston Islay Argyll link to Scottish Livingstone families that settled nearby in County Down, Ulster Ireland in the 17th century is not at all implausible and makes some sense.

These are the three primary Y Chromosome dna groups I have been focussing my research energy over the last 15 years because the answer of the origins of the Argyllshire Livingstons is in the DNA of all of the Livingstons who match these three Y chromosome DNA groups as hard as that is to believe.

More recent efforts regarding the LIvingstons is research of those Livingstons of Scotch Irish origin and trying to establish their possible earlier connection with lowland Livingston families that lived in Ayrshire or around there and who were part of a group of lowland families that settled in County Down and elsewhere in Ulster in the 1600's. So far however while a good and diverse number of Livingstons of known Scotch Irish ancestry have been tested, I am not aware of any Livingstons who recent ancestors resided in Ayrshire, Scotland have been tested. One of my future goals is encourage testing of Ayrshire Livingstons or those descended from Ayrshire Livingstons to see if any of them could be closely related to some of the Scotch Irish Livingstons that have over the last 15 years been tested by family tree. But this is a bit of side project as I continue to focus primarily on the Western Argyllshire Livingstons. My Mom's ancestry is Scotch Irish so I have done some extensive Scotch Irish family research over the years prior to my Clan Livingstone research, so I do have some knowledge of the lowland family migrations into Ulster in the 1600's and my Mom's people did come from Ayrshire apparently. I know that some Livingstons did come in the 17th century from Ayrshire to Ulster according to one old book I read, but I have no details of their settlement in Ulster. There does however seem to be much evidence from the DNA testing for sure that according to the families tested that their Scottish Livingston ancestors did indeed settle and reside in Ulster before they settled in America in the 1700's. So their LIvingston families must have almost certainly come from one of the lowland counties such as Ayrshire. And the fact that a number of these American Livignston families of known Scotch Irish origin are not matching with DNA test results suggests that a number of unrelated Livingston families arrived in Ulster in the 1600's which is interesting and somewhat surprising to me.

ANyways the study of the Livingstons of Argyllshire has been my primary focus for the last 15 years, but I have been taking a look at the origins of "other" old Livingston families of Scotland including in the lowlands the Stirlingshire Livingstons of early aristocratic origins. A documented descendant of one of them contacted me a few years ago and she had some very interesting old 19th century family info that clearly linked her family to the last branch of the original aristocratic Calendar Stirlingshire Livingston family. That was a very interesting little side project of mine and I was able to help put together for her some ancestral family info linking her generation by generation back in time back to her origina Callendar Livingston ancestors of the11th century which I have never attempted before. That was definitely outside my Western Argyllshire Livingston research comfort zone, but I did fortunately have a copy of an early twentieth century book written by a descendant of an American branch of the old Calendar Livingston family that proved to be a valuable resource tool in helping this descendant of another branch of the old Calendar Livingston family with her research. Glad I bought that book several years ago now though it was a bit a pricey at the time. I knew however it was out of print and that few copies were to had so I jumped on it when I saw it was available. Turns out it was of much help to me when the very unlikely occurrence of contact with a proven descendant of the last surviving branch of the Calendar family made contact with me.

Many Livingstones/Livingstons and Mcleas, Macleays and other possibly related families over the years. In terms of the familytree testing over the last 15 year with familytreedna the truth is there were a number of Livingstons who did not match the three primarily Argyllshire Livingston DNA match groups I have been mentioning and here on this chart you can that this is essentially the case and that what we seem to have is a quite a "diverse' group of livingston's. This does not list all the Livingstones/Livingstons who have been tested over the last 15 or so years but it gives you a pretty good idea of the groupings that Andrew Lancaster spent much time and effort over the years carefully grouping them by their distinct marker results. Included is the "Bachuil" Livingstone group I mentioned as well as the "Livi Parker", primarily a Mull and MOrvern Argyllshire Maclea LIvignstone group, some but not all of who are listed that my own Livingston cousin is a match. This Parker Livi or Parker Livingston group is the largest match group of documented Maclea Livingstones with currently more than 25 Livingstons primarily of Mull and Movern and neighbouring parish Livingston ancestry I have found. The third in part Argyllshire Livingston DNA group which I mentioned I have been studying which includes Livingstons and other related families of interestingly of Ulster Scotch Irish origins, is referred to on this familytreedna list as the "Dr. Livingstone" group because a descendant of Dr. Livingstone's brother matched with this third group I have been looking at in some detail over the years. This list does not include all those more recent Livingstons that have are matching with this group to date, but it will give you a good sense of how their marker results differ those of the "Bachuil" group or the "Livi-Parker" Parker Livingston primarily Mull and Morvern Maclea Livingstone group of which my own Livingston cousin is a part of. As mentioned the "Livi Parker" group now has 25 or more Livingston matches and is the most common Western Argyllshire match group when Livingstons of known or documented 18th or 19th century Western argyllshire Livingston ancestry have been tested in the last 15 years which I thought is probably of some probable significance and at least worth noting. Note that the "Parker-Livi Parker Livingstone list here does not list some of the more recent Livingstons of Western Argyllshire Maclea Livingstone ancestry that are matching with this group. There are now 27 plus one Parker whose Paternal ancestor was suspected by the family and proven to be a Livingstone with Y DNA testing.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/li ... e=yresults



Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2656
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: New addition to the Bachuil group

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:19 pm

Hi George,
There as you have heard an understanding that the Mcleays of Strathconnon were ancestrally connected with the Mclea's (Livingstones) of Western Argyllshire of the 18th century. One of the objectives of our Clan's ongoing DNA research efforts in the beginning was to utilize DNA testing to help determine if other known Scottish Mcleas family groups were in fact related to the Mclea-Livingstones of Western Argyllshire origin. It has been assumed that the Macleays of Strathconnon are likely a branch of Mcleas somehow related to our the Western Argyllshire Mcleas (Clan Maclea Livingstone.) I have not seen any proof of this, so obviously DNA testing gives us the best chance of proving or disproving this notion. That however requires finding a proven and well documented Mcleay whose ancestors were most definitely Strathconnon McLeays. I for one do not believe that the Strathconnon Mcleays and others Mcleays (Mcleas) of that general area of Scotland were related to the Mcleas (Livingstones) ie. Lismore Mcleas or Achnacrea Mcleas etc. of Western Argyllshire. Of the Western Argyllshire Maclea Livingstone documented descendants tested with Familytreedna in the last 15 years that I am aware of none have been a Y Chromosome close match with a Mclea of some other origin or a Ross and Cromarty Mcleay.

The original source of this notion that the Mclea or Macleays of Strathconnon connected to Clan McKenzie are somehow ancestrally connected with the Mcleas of Lismore,Argyll or the nearby Mcleas of Achnacree, Argyll seems to have been some time ago been derived perhaps from a misunderstanding of the early rare account of various Mcleas throughout Scotland written in 1743 by Rev. Duncan Mclea. Regarding the Strathconnon Mcleas (Mcleays) howver Rev. Mclea never actually states or for that matter offers any proof, that the Strathconnon Mcleas (Mcleays) are related to the Mcleays of Achnacree or the Mcleays of Lismore. Regarding the Mcleas (Mcleays) of Strathconnon he only briefly comments,"I heard that the Mclea's possest Stratchonnen in the North and that they are always as yet in possession of it, and that the whole of the Strath are for the most part McLea's, both man and wife, or either the man or the wife, or that the Mclea to whom Strathchonnen belonged, died without heirs male and had one only daughter, and who being the heiress of Strathchonnen and that one of the Earls of Scaforth married this heiress, and the Strathchonnen now belongs to the Earl of Scaforth who, since that time, keeps the Mclea's in their former possession of Strathchonnen, who generally at time call themselves McKenzies, tho' they own and acknowledge themselves to be originally Mcleas."

The Y DNA results in the years following the first test results I think it became clear that were Livingstons with a family history connecting them to Livingston families that resided in 18th and 19th Century Argyllshire matching with certain DNA match group more often than not and other Livingstons and some with the name Mclea or Mcleay possibly of other old Scottish Maclea families of Bute or in North Western Scotland who while assumed to closely related to the Argyllshire Maclea Livingstones their Y DNA results told a different story. Andrew Lancaster, to his credit spent long hours sorting
grouping and listing the original Livingstons, Mcleas, Mcleays that were tested with the Y Chromosome DNA test according to their marker results.

While there turned out to be this diverse collection of Livingston and Mclea results from all of the Livingstons and Mcleas tested in the family treedna, when I worked with genealogy research with those who had done or who I had encouraged to do DNA testing, primarily focusing Livingstons who we're descendants of Livingstons known for certain to have resided in 18th and 19th century Argyllshire through Census and parish records and other reliable indicators I found to my surprise that while they did not match with one DNA match group as some would have thought of Argyllshire Livingstones, they almost always matched with no more than 3 groups. Most of the Livinstons with documented Argyllshire Livingston ancestry I found matched with the Parker Livingston familytreedna Match group made up of Livingstons mostly of Maclea Livingstones who resided in the 18th and 19th century and long before that in the parishes of Western Argyllshire of Mull and neighbouring Morvern, Ardnamurchan but who later could be found in other parishes in Western Argyllshire. At my last count my Livingston cousin in the Parker Livingston group had something like 25 or more Livingston matches representing most of those in that group. So it seems for some reason in the history of Clan Mclea Livingstone a large group and there has been some 15 years of testing so it seems to be probably a fairly representative sample of that group. The rest of the Argyllshire Livingstons I was researching matched with the "Bachuil-Lismore" Familytreedna Y Chromosome Match group and a third familytreedna match group with interesting mix of Livingstons of Islay, Southern Argyllshire Argyll ancestry and Livingstons of nearby County Down Ulster Scotch-Irish ancestry and other families of Scotch-Irish ancestry. Most interesting of all this third diverse Livingston Y DNA match group includes a descendant of Dr. LIvingstone's brother whose Livingstons resided in Mull, Argyll as far back as 1770's, but likely resided elsewhere in Argyllshire before that time.

I am primarily interested in seeing how this trends in the future and if it continues to follow the same pattern with these three DNA match groups. Seeing which Livingston families of 18th and 19th century Argyllshire Livingston families match with each DNA group is my prime interest. Only a few people in each of these Argyllshire Livingston groups have done the SNP test, but it is a good start and I the DNA and SNP results are already beginning to become clear with each of the three Argyllshire Livingston groups I have been studying from a genealogical perspective for some time now. Very early into the SNP testing of the three Argyllshire Livingston Y DNA familytree match groups already it is clear from what I have seen that each has it's own distinct SNP results reflecting its particular ancient Celtic origins whatever they may be.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2656
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: New addition to the Bachuil group

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:28 am

Hi George,
Regarding Mr. MIkinnie's ancestry.
Mr. Mikinnie's SNP results linking him to SNP L1335 and L1065 are interesting and clearly he is of an old Scottish family not unlike our Clan's Bachuil Maclea-Livingstone ancient family group and matching with SNP L1335 and L1065 as likely are the Bachuil Lismore Maclea Livingstones based on one them being of the SNP L1335 and the subclade L1065 who listed with a Buchanan in the L1335 list below. However the L1335 group which Mr. Mikkennie is matching matches with for the most part different subclasses of L1335 and L1065 is not really a significantly close L1335 match with the one Bachuil Maclea Livingstone tested for SNP's of the Bachuil Livingstone DNA group and is in fact Mr. Mikennie is actually grouped as you known with "other" Scots matching with L1335-L1065-Z16325-S744-S764-S756 and so on of which the Bachuil Maclea-Livingstone does not match most of the subclades which Mr. Mikkenie does.

Having gone through the 3 pages of the below L1335 list tonight it immediately became apparent that Mr. Mikinnie's descendant is much likely to have been of a Scottish McKennie or Mckinnie family some of which apparently if tested would be L1335-L1065-Z16325-S744-S764 and quite possibly L1335-L1065-Z16325-S744-S764-S756. Not sure why he concluded his ancestor was a Mclea-Livingstone and not more likely a McKennie or McKinnie except that there no L1335 Mckennie which is really close with him. There is however two McKennie's on page 1 of the L1335 with one on the bottom of page 1 on the L1335 list that shares SNP L1335-L1065-Z16325-S744-S764 with Mr. Mikkinnie though he is not a really close match compared to others on the L1335 list. But with at least one McKennie tested matching subclade S764 there could be other MCkennie's more closely related to Mr. Mikkinnie who have simply not done the SNP test of the familytreedna project who match the next subclade S765 and other connecting subclades of S765. That possibility I think does exist that a Scottish McKennie or McKinnie is out there who matches some subclades of S765 as Mr. Mikkinnie did they just have not done the familytreedna testing.

The L1335 information to me suggests there could be a person somewhere out there of Scottish ancestry like him with McKennie or McKinney ancestry. I really have been so busy in the past and did not earlier have time to delve more deeply into this Mikinnie ancestral mystery but looking carefully through this lengthy list of those SNP matches with L1335 and these detailed subclades as one progresses through to page 2 it becomes clear to me that there must of been more likely a McKennie/McKinnie in his Scottish ancestry. Could this McKennie been from North Western Scotland and been connected to the Mcleays and McKenzies I really don't know as I don't as yet know anything about the McKennies but clearly there were McKennies living in Scotland and looks like a couple of them did the familytreedna SNP test and are interestingly closer matching Mr. McKinnie than only one Bachuil-Lismore Maclea-Livingstone on the below SNP L1335 Chart. My best bet then is that Mr. Mikinnie's Scottish ancestor was a McKennie or Mckinnie and definitely not a Bachuil Maclea (Mconlea) Livingstone though it does look like on the basis of one Bachuil LIvingston SNP tested that the Bachuil Maclea Livingstone's should all likely be matching with one of the many SNP groups matching with the SNP L1335-L1065. It is only when looking through the SNP results below that I realized that Mr. Mikinnie's ancestor was quite like a Scot named McKenny not Mconlea or Mclea of Clan Mclea Livingstone of Western Argyllshire. While I realize there may only have been about two McKenny's tested for SNP's with familytreedna I am really leaning towards the notion from what I saw on that list that there must be some McKenny's out there of Scottish ancestry who if tested would be near perfect match DNA and SNP wise with Mr. Mikkennie.

I am just suggesting that Mr. Mikkennie's paternal scottish ancestor might have been of a Scottish McKennie, Mckinnie, McKenney family that have a long history in Scotland. Looks like there probably a number of families from Scotland with this name or names some related and some not to each other. Not saying I am certain of this just that I am just considering it as maybe a possibility just to be clear. The one thing that I think surprised me and certainly some of my colleagues with Clan Maclea Livingstone was the diversity of Livingston DNA marker results. From what I could tell no anticipated so many variations and apparently unrelated Livingston families. I imagine with many of the other old Scottish families when they do the Y Chromosome test similar diverse results occur and I have seen this for myself with Campbells, Fergusons and other old Scottish families. So I am thinking this could be the case with persons tested descended from old Scottish group of families connected with a Mckennie, McKinnie or McKinney. We know from the familytreedna L1335 SNP list that at least two McKennies or McKenny's that were tested proved to be positive for L1335 with one of them as I mentioned sharing some of the L1335 subclasses with Mr. Mikkennie at least up to the L1335 S764. So not a perfect SNP match I was hoping to see but sharing a number of the similar subclades of L1335 and I think leaving open the possibility to consider that there might be other Mckennie's out there who are also of this SNP L1335 general group if tested and some might turn out to a much closer L1335 subclade match with Mr. Mikkennie. But again until one it tested with familytreedna and proves to be a close match with all or most of the subclades of L1335 which Mr. Mikkennie has been matching with it all just speculation on my part I fully realize.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1 ... e=yresults

The 1841 Scottish Census records a significant number of McKennie families throughout Scotland and interestingly in Ross and Cromarty where they resided at Lochbroom, Kintail, Urray and Stornoway for example. Also there are some who go by the name McKenny or McKenney residing at Fodderty and Stornoway in Ross and Cromarty who may be the same family group with slightly different spellings. There are McKennie's and McKinnie's in the early 1800's residing at Lochbroom, Kintail, Urray, Stornoway, Dingwall, Lochcarron, Ullapool, Applecross, Killearnan and Mckenney and McKenny at Lochalsh and Foderty in Ross and Cromarty.

In addition to Ross and Cromarty McKennie's also show up throughout Scotland by the 1840's in Aberdeenshire, Fifeshire, Renfrewshire, Inverness-shire. One of the earliest records of them I saw was of a McKennie of Aberdeenshire in the middle ages. I was not actually looking for a McKennie on the L1335 list and as I had not prior to yesterday gone through the L1335 matches but did not notice them when I first studied that list yesterday. The Livingston of Port Appin and Bachuil, Lismore Maclea-Livingstone ancestry was on page 1 with a close Buchanan match and that was the only one that I had some knowledge of the genealogy of this Appin Livingston family group of the person tested years ago. So the discovery of two Scottish McKennies had done the SNP test and were L1335 and of some of the similar subclades though not a close match of Mr. Mikennie but much more similar than the one Bachuil Livingston tested and listed on the L1335 list page 1 I think is suggests that there are likely other Scottish McKennie descendants with more subclades of L1335 matching with Mr. McKennie. A really close SNP McKennie match I suspect is not on the L1335 list simply because no really closely related Scottish McKennie descendants have been tested, but I think very compelling and interesting that are two McKennies that seem to share a good number of the subclades of L1335 peculiar to Mr. McKennie at least more so than the one Bachuil Maclea Livingstone that has is matching with the L1335 SNP and also included on the L1335 List. So lets not rule out that Mr. Mikkinnie might be a descendant of a L1335-L1065-Z16325-s744-s764 etc scottish McKennie or McKinnie family and that there are McKennies or McKinnie's out there who are a more closer L1335 subclade match to Mr. Mikkinnie than the two McKinney men who were tested by familytreedna, did the SNP test and were listed on page l on that L1335 list. Not having a close McKinnie or McKennie match does on that L1335 list does not mean that there that Mr. Mikkinnie was not descended from one of the old Scottish McKennie or Mckinnie families.

Numerous McKinnie's in the records as well. Lots of them in the late 1600's and into the 1700's in Lanarkshire in places such as Glasgow. A McKennie, McKinnie or McKinney that is was a close DNA match and connected to Mr. Mckinnie's ancestral group may simply have not done the familytreedna Y chromosome test as yet and the other two that I did notice on the L1335 list could have been simply too distant a marker match to show up as close match with Mr. McKinnie. That does not rule out the possibility that other more closely matched Scottish McKennie or McKinnie related kin have simply not done the familytreedna test and as a result a really close Scottish McKennie or McKinney match from his Scottish family group has not appeared in the familytreedna record as yet. This is a common problem with some of the Livingstons who had done the familytreedna that they don't have close Livingston matches and that closely related Livingstons have not as yet done the familytreednda. Those one McKinney is a quite similar subclades match though not a perfectly close match with Mr. McKennie however I think point to the possibility that there are other MCkennies or McKinnies out there of Scottish origins who are an even closer subclades of L1335 match with Mr. Mikkenie. I think should be a possibility that should be considered in the search or Mr. McKinnie's Scottish ancestor via familytreedna testing.

It is important to be aware that "Bachuil" Mclea Livingstones based on the SNP test of one Bachuil Livingston of that DNA match group are definitely L1335>L1065 but not anywhere close with similar subclade results of L1335 to Mr. Mikkinnie's L1335>l1065>Z16325>S744>S764-etc. SNP match group so I think a close match with the Bachuil Mclea Livingstone or any other McLea Livingstones of Western Argyllshire based on SNP test results so far can probably be ruled out. I think you will find it take a look at the L1335 Chart page 1 which includes one Livingstone from Bachuil Livingstone Y chromosome DNA match group next to a Buchanan grouped with many other Scots matching with L1335 and a similar group of L1335 subclades that our Bachuil Maclea Livingstone and other scots matching with his particular L1335 match groups are not positive for the L1335 subclades of S764 and S765.

That Livingston I mention was definitely earlier a close DNA marker match with several other Livingstons ancestrally connected to Bachuil Mclea Livingstones of Lismore, Argyllshire including the Clan Chief. I am sorry you were not aware that he had done the SNP test and was a match with a certain group of Scots matching with specific subclades of L1335 not matching closely with those of Mr. Mikkinnie. Sorry to say for that reason I see a close SNP match is evident with Mr. Mikkinnie and the Bachuil Mclea Livingstones and don't that suspect that subsequent SNP testing of other Livingstons of the Bachuil Maclea Livingstone Y DNA familytreedna match group will result in any significant different subclade of L1335 results than those indicated on the L1335 chart I mentioned.

Regarding Y DNA testing and comparing a Macleay with a Mr. Mikkenie, he has one Macleay match 258139 listed beside his result on a Y DNA match list that only apparently did a 37 marker test and with that there was six marker difference with the Macleay which would be a genetic match at 37 markers tested a genetic distance of 6. I would get a better sense of their genetic distance if the Mcleay had 67 markers tested but with a genetic distance of 6 with 37 markers tested I think that is strong indicator this particular Mcleay is not closely related to Mcleays. 37-0 or 37-1 are close matches indicating a likely shared ancestry in relatively recent times. A genetic distance of 6 with 37 markers test on the hand does not give us an encouraging sign that Mr. Mikkenie was closely related to this Mcleay or to Mcleays. It would be interesting to see the genetic distance results fo this Mcleay and Mr Mikkenie if the McLeay had done the 67 marker test I suspect it be even more a genetic distance. I am not getting the sense that Macleay 258139 is a particularly close match with Mr. Mikkenie. With the DNA results the Genetic distance is I think here is something to take into account if one is trying to make the case that Mr. McKKenie's ancestors were Mcleays.

I am finding SNP testing helpful with my own Mclea Livingstone research in defining and grouping Livingstons with each of their Y DNA match groups, but am still finding the Y DNA testing has been the most beneficial in sorting out descendants of the Argyllshire LIvingstones tested and also helping to match them with distant Livingston relatives as has happened from time to time. I make a note if known what parish in Argyllshire they came from and in the case of the Mull and neighbouring Movern Livingston descendants the Mull Livingstons seem be closer matched with other Livingstons of Mull origin and the Livingston of stated or documented Morvern Livingston ancestry seem to be closer matched with others of Morvern Livingston ancestry. So the good old Y DNA testing has been very helpful in the case of those Livingstons tested of known Argyllshire ancestry in the 18th and 19th century.
regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2656
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: New addition to the Bachuil group

Postby George Macdonald » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:22 pm

Dear Donald,

Thank you again for your last three posts.

If I understand you correctly you suspect that the Highland McLea/McLay/McLeay/Livingstones tend to fall into three distinct groups. I am going to list them below for you to see if I understand you correctly, the only change I have made is that I have treated the Bachuill group and its Scots ‘cadet’ group as two separate groups as I suspect the Scots ‘cadet’ group will in time contain several distinct groups:

1. Bachuill group (Lismore) – haplogroup L1335>L1065
2. Scots ‘cadet’ group (Strathconon & others) – haplogroup L1335>L1065
3. Parker/Livingstone group (West Argyll/Mull/Morven) – haplogroup not known
4. David Livingstone group (South Argyll) – haplogroup L1445

1. The Bachuill group (Lismore)

The Bachuill group are known to include the line of the Deoradh of St Moluag, the current Chief’s line, and the families that connect to this line.

The limited number of people who have undergone DNA testing makes it very difficult to comment on the ancestral connections of each group but I hope that, in time, DNA will clarify whether the Bachuill group represent the MacDhunsleibhe family who were settled on mainland Appin and Muckairn during the 16th century (Achnacree & Achnacloich), or whether they were a distinct line whose ancestry may predate their 16th century associations. I am not very well versed on the history of this family so forgive me if my understanding of their relatedness to the other genetic lines within clan Livingstone is wide of the mark but in the past I have formed the impression that, in addition to relatedness, and similar sounding names adopting the name Livingstone, what most likely linked them to some of the other lines within the Highland clan McLea was a shared association with the medieval church and historic ties of mutual dependence.

It is impossible to predict the line of snps that the Bachuill group will follow. After L1065 there are several branches of descent that they could potentially follow. The two main contenders are the line that leads to S691, which the majority of clan MacGregor, clan Buchanan and clan Logan follow, or the line that leads to S764, which a large section of clan MacPherson, most of clan Macrae and a number of Argyllshire families follow. I think the strongest contender must be S764 as some observers have linked S764 to the population group known to history as the Cenel Loairn, with whom the Mconleas/Mcleas have traditionally been associated.

I think it would be helpful for me to point out that I have been found to test positive for S764 yet most of my close STR matches are with Buchanans, MacGregors and Logans, this is simply due to what they call convergence for I am not at all closely related to these families. This causes a lot of confusion for many people who test positive for S764 and wish to determine how closely related they are to other surnames by comparing their STR results. This highlights why snp testing is so important as it eliminates convergence and identifies your “true” close matches and places them in a historic time frame. It may also be helpful to mention that some of my more distant “true” snp matches [12th century] do not even show up as STR matches on my FTDNA list of matches.

A growing number of people who analyse DNA results have come to the conclusion that individuals that test positive for L1335>L1065 onwards descend from the iron age population of present day Scotland rather than from native Irish stock. In their opinion the Dalriadans of Antrim, Northern Ireland, were most likely the descendants of a portion of the iron-age population of Argyllshire that had migrated to County Antrim in the earlier centuries and who simply returned to Scotland in the 6th century and perhaps earlier. They point to the fact that the early branching of L1335 has revealed Welsh and Continental connections which are more indicative of a population that originated on the Continent in the dim and distant past and which moved up through Britain before settling in Scotland. This west coast iron-age population appear to have been Gaelic speakers from an early date most likely due to their interactions with Northern Ireland who were their closest neighbours.

2. The Scots ‘cadet’ group (Strathconon and others)

As will be seen from my previous post of 15th July 2020 above there are already five individuals within this group that have undergone a BigY test.

MacLean/McLay (28652), Livingstone/McLeay (164403) and Macdonald (145402) all follow the same line. The shorthand method of illustrating their line of snps before they branch apart is as follows:
L1335>L1065>Z16325>S744>S764>S699>S756>A6099>A6100
So far their matches appear to show an early association with Argyllshire, and later associations with Mid Ross and the district of the Aird in North East Scotland.

Makinnie/Makelij (181810) whose line of snps is as follows:
L1335>L1065>Z16325>S744>S764>S699>S756>Z16328>BY23073
This man’s matches appears to have a very strong connection with Argyllshire.

Livingston (510569)
L1335>L1065>Z16325>S744>BY3337
This man does not appear to have any close matches so far so his line of extended snps is unclear.

Some of our clan historians have suggested that Clan McLea were closely related to the MacSweens/Sweenys, MacEwens and possibly the MacQueens. I have not looked into this in any great detail but it is perhaps worth mentioning that one of Mr Makinnie/Makelij’s close matches is with a MacEwen [A clan that is very thin on the ground from a DNA point of view] who so far [Mr MacEwen that is] has the following progression of snps:
L1335>L1065>Z16325>S744>S764>S699>S756>Z16328.
Also several Sweenys distantly match him under the line:
L1335>L1065>Z16325>S744>S764>BY3148>FGC18441>FGC18447>FGC18453

Mr Fraser, who has been grouped under the Bachuill group, has embarked on a BigY test so very shortly we will know what line he follows. Once his results are known I will return to this post to report accordingly.

In addition to these Argyllshire families there were a number of other widely dispersed Highland families that possessed a Gaelic surname that sounded very similar to the name McLea/McLay/McLey/McLeay and later, when surnames were required, they took one or other of the variant spellings of the name, or alternatively took the name of the landholding clan on whose land they resided or with whom they had a long standing association in the past. At a later date a large percentage of the families that carried the name McLea/MacLay/McLey/McLeay took the surname Livingstone which by the 19th century had generally become synonymous with McLay.

3. Parker/Livingstone group (West Argyll/Mull/Morven)

As far as I am aware none of the Livingstones within this group have embarked on snp testing therefore I am unable to say which haplogroup they belong to. I suspect it will be one of the haplogroups that have Irish and Scottish branches.

From your earlier post of 17th July 2020 it would appear that many of the Livingstones within this group resided in Mull, Morven and Ardnamurchan, which is further to the west than the Appin & Muckairn districts. I’m afraid I have no suggestions to make at this time and would need to study this group.

4. David Livingstone Group (South Argyll)

This group appears to fall under the haplogroup L1445 which is unfamiliar to me, and, unless I am mistaken, may have links to lowland Scotland. I need to read up on this haplogroup before making any observations but would be interested to hear the views of any in this group who have looked at their connections and have formed an opinion of their possible roots.

Well Donald that’s all I have time for tonight, thank you again for responding and hopefully this thread will stimulate some of the others to see the benefit of a snp test such as the BgY – the more that do this the more we will all learn about our remote ancestry.

George
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Re: New addition to the Bachuil group

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:35 am

Hi George,
For sure it would be a good thing if more Livingstones/Livingstons, Mclea's and Mcleays did an SNP test in the future.
No as I said "at least" one Livingston has done a SNP test from each of the three Argyllshire Livingston DNA groups I mentioned including most definitely that of the "Bachuil Livingstone" Y DNA Group, the Parker Livingstone Group and the Dr. Livingstone Group. I myself had a Livingston in the Parker Livingston group SNP Tested a few years ago so I know that to be case and a Livingstone of the Bachuil Livingstone DNA group is listed on that L1335 List as L1065 so I am assuming he did the L1335 test a while back to be included on this L1335 list as how else would they know he is L1335>L1065. I know nothing of that particular SNP test, but the 67 Y DNA marker results clearly are consistent with others he is listed with in that particular L1335>1065. I am assuming the Bachuil Livingston listed with and an Alexander and Buchanan on that list did the L1335 test and that is why he was included on the L1335 List. While I have not been able to get confirmation that this Livingston from the Bachuil Livingston did the SNP all I can say is that he is only one in that Bachuil Livingstone Y DNA group with familytreedna that has been identified on that L1335 SNP List from that Y DNA list which includes Bachuil LIvingstones. I looked at the marker by marker information and is also relatively close with an Alexander whom he listed beside in terms of DNA on that L1335 list so it makes sense one way or another that this Livingston from the Bachuil Livingstone Group would be almost certainly matching with the SNP L1335. I would really like to see an additional Bachuil Livingstone on that L1335 list in the near future, but I can't guarantee with any certainty that will happen.

SNP testing can be useful as I have said if one feels the need to go into the intensive research route and I would encourage it is but ultimately it is rather expensive. People I have spoken with have some concerns about the expense. For seniors and people of limited financial means embarking on their family research it is also almost impossible for many to afford. Times these days are especially tough. I would have to say that Y DNA testing is far more affordable and for Livingstones, Macleas, Macleays and other Scottish families trying to get some sense of which family group they belong to and to get a sense of their genetic distance with other Livingston or Mcleay families the Y DNA 67 marker test is a pretty helpful and useful test I would personally suggest. As I was researching Livingstons who lived in Argyllshire in the 18th and 19th centuries, the preliminary SNP testing already proved what I was hoping it would prove and really what I essentially knew or suspected from the DNA results which I have always found to be very beneficial and informative. I would think it of much greater advantage to continue focusing on encouraging more Argyllshire Livingstones/Livingstons, Bute Mcleas, Ross and Cromarty Macleays in the future to continue doing the less costly 67 marker Y DNA test and collect genealogy info from these families and continue to compare those results marker by marker.

My sense is that you are involved in an intensive research effort linked to some serious SNP research to validate your theories you have constructed and mentioned in some detail, but with my limited capacity as a volunteer Clan Maclea Livingstone Society Historian and Genealogist, I regrettably am not able to provide you with information or the time, effort or commitment that ultimately would be of help to your own very extensive research project. I appreciated you sharing your research info so that others that visit the Forum in the future may be aware of your research efforts and your latest theories regarding Macleas, Macleays and Livingstons.

regards,

Donald
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Re: New addition to the Bachuil group

Postby George Macdonald » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:58 pm

Donald,

Thank you very much for all the information you have supplied on the Highland Livingstones/McLeas and for taking the time to explain your current thinking on the three main groups that have come to light through Y-DNA testing. I am much better informed as a result and I'm sure that other readers of the forum will have gleaned some valuable information from your posts.

I appreciate your comments on cost and lack of interest and only hope that one or two will be motivated to go down the road of a full snp test as this is the most useful tool available to us and, when combined with the information gleaned from STR tests, can add greatly to our understanding of the past and reveal how closely related we are to each other. My own interest is more of a general nature as I am keen to understand how the various McLea branches evolved and how closely related they are to other families/clans.

I have a few questions arising from the little I have read about MacLea history but this will have to wait for another day and I will post them on the ancestral section of the forum.

Kind regards
George H Macdonald
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Re: New addition to the Bachuil group

Postby George Macdonald » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:57 am

I understand from the L1335 project information that Fraser (523693) has now received his BigY results and that his terminal snp is currently S764* The asterix after the snp indicates that he has not tested positive for any the 10 sons (branch lines) of S764 and that he is one of five men that will have to wait until someone tests positive for some of their private snps (so far exclusive to them alone) in order for their branch lines to be determined and their matching snps added to the tree. This means that Mr Fraser does not follow the same line as the Frasers/Fraziers above who follow the S756 branch line and it remains to be seen whether he will in fact be a true match with the participants within the Bachuill group as he possesses a very distinctive STR marker reading at DYS413 that he does not share with the rest of the Bachuill group.

George H Macdonald
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