www.clanlivingstone.info

Dear Bachuil and clan members,

It was a pleasure to meet you at your clan tent last weekend in Edinburgh. The International Clan Gathering was a great success and well done to all involved.

I have just finished reading my copy of your excellent new booklet on Clan MacLea/Livingstone. I had previously studied Clan Livingstone history in the past, as I'm connected genetically to the “McWho” Highland Livingstones and have the L21 mutation.

I was particularly interested in your final paragraph where you comment about the personal name William being "... unusual in the Highlands." When I was researching material  for my own Wilson family booklet in the '80s, I assumed that William/Wilson was only in any great use in the Scottish Lowlands, now I see that this is apparently not the case. I have found William on record in a good few old Highland families. The late Livingstone chief and his father were both William. The current McPherson chief is also a William, the McPhersons of Corries were also known as McWilliam of Corries.

I have just been corresponding with a lady running a DNA project for a Scottish clan who informs me that its chiefly family are L21, like our McWho Livingstones. This clan is not too far from the Clan Livingstone lands. The L21 mutation appears as the 'genetic body' of a good few Highland clans and is very likely Scots or Pictish. L21 is the biggest DNA tested group in the McDonalds, it accounts for one third of Campbells and a group in Clan McKenzie – said to be the old chiefly line.

I always thought my particular Wilsons were Norman and Lowland Scottish but DNA research is changing my situation. I can only watch, and wait, to see if my own Wilson family is a sept of Clan Livingstone, McPherson or Ferguson as our McWho DNA Project has a genetic-branch consisting of surnames derived from the personal name Fergus. Our project site can be viewed at: http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/MacWho_results.htm

I hope this is of interest.

Yours sincerely,

John Wilson of Kilwinnet

Hi John;

While I have read all of your references. I am curious about markers CDY a and CDY b, mine are 38 - 38. Do these Alleles mean ``a lot`` because I only found two people with 38 - 38. Kit # 120317.

Regards;

Roberta Ann

Hi John,

No doubt some of the other highland clans and related septs could have an ancestral connect at some point with highlands Macleas later known as highland clan livingstone but we are likely talking about a connection among celtic peoples or tribes in a ancient timeframe. One of the important things to note I think when intrepreting results of even a relatively close match such as my highland livingston cousin has with several others almost entirely livingstons is carefully reaching some sort of conclusion about the possible time frame where a ancestral connection may have taken place. This I find very difficult although I can surmise that with the resulting genetic distance my cousin's connection while some sort of match it would seem likely the ancestral connection with several Livingstons is at least three or four hundred years ago with a some sort of highland Maclea/Dunslea branch that existed in Western Argyll and whose Livingston descendants could be found prior to emigration in Mull, Morvern, Colonsay, Jura and some other Islands in the area. There are alot of Livingstons out there who I suspect descend from this group living in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United States who may find themselves a close match with this group, but only time will tell.

regards,

Donald

Kilwinnet wrote:I have just been corresponding with a lady running a DNA project for a Scottish clan who informs me that its chiefly family are L21, like our McWho Livingstones. This clan is not too far from the Clan Livingstone lands. The L21 mutation appears as the 'genetic body' of a good few Highland clans and is very likely Scots or Pictish. L21 is the biggest DNA tested group in the McDonalds, it accounts for one third of Campbells and a group in Clan McKenzie – said to be the old chiefly line.

John--

I know my line is L21+, but I'm not sure the chiefly line has been deep clade tested? I'll have to get back to you.

Kyle=

Kyle MacLea wrote:I know my line is L21+, but I'm not sure the chiefly line has been deep clade tested? I'll have to get back to you.

Yes--we have 7 men who have tested L21+.

1 (group 22, McKinley)
2 (3 -- Scots R1b)
1 (4-- Boggs)
1 (me) (7--Cluster 26)
1 (8--Parker/Livi*)
1 (your chap from group 9-MacWho)

Kyle=

Roberta Ann wrote:Hi John;

While I have read all of your references. I am curious about markers CDY a and CDY b, mine are 38 - 38. Do these Alleles mean ``a lot`` because I only found two people with 38 - 38. Kit # 120317.

Regards;

Roberta Ann

Hi Roberta

This is a good question, and I can give the answer in a funny form: if there were two markers that meant the least on their own, this would be them.

But I have to also add that these are VERY useful markers for looking at differences between branches in a family of recently related people. In other words when ALL or most of your markers match with someone, then it this type of marker which comes into its own.

The jargon people use is that these are "fast changing" markers. They have a high probability of changing every time a boy is born. I like to call them "jumpy".

Best Regards
Andrew

Kyle MacLea wrote:

Kilwinnet wrote:I have just been corresponding with a lady running a DNA project for a Scottish clan who informs me that its chiefly family are L21, like our McWho Livingstones. This clan is not too far from the Clan Livingstone lands. The L21 mutation appears as the 'genetic body' of a good few Highland clans and is very likely Scots or Pictish. L21 is the biggest DNA tested group in the McDonalds, it accounts for one third of Campbells and a group in Clan McKenzie – said to be the old chiefly line.

John--

I know my line is L21+, but I'm not sure the chiefly line has been deep clade tested? I'll have to get back to you.

Kyle=

We have circumstantial evidence that our chiefly line is L21+. They are in a very well known cluster of L21 families, nearly all Scottish, and many of which are chiefly lines in Highland clans. Many of their close matches have been tested and confirmed.

Whenever we find an SNP mutation more specific than L21 (which is the most common one amongst all British men) then testing for L21 will become a higher priority.

For R1b project members with an unusual haplotype (DNA signature), testing for L21 is MOST interesting, because NOT being L21 is interesting for any Scottish male line. Make sense?

Best Regards
Andrew

Kilwinnet wrote:Dear Bachuil and clan members,

It was a pleasure to meet you at your clan tent last weekend in Edinburgh. The International Clan Gathering was a great success and well done to all involved.

I have just finished reading my copy of your excellent new booklet on Clan MacLea/Livingstone. I had previously studied Clan Livingstone history in the past, as I'm connected genetically to the “McWho” Highland Livingstones and have the L21 mutation.

I was particularly interested in your final paragraph where you comment about the personal name William being "... unusual in the Highlands." When I was researching material  for my own Wilson family booklet in the '80s, I assumed that William/Wilson was only in any great use in the Scottish Lowlands, now I see that this is apparently not the case. I have found William on record in a good few old Highland families. The late Livingstone chief and his father were both William. The current McPherson chief is also a William, the McPhersons of Corries were also known as McWilliam of Corries.

I have just been corresponding with a lady running a DNA project for a Scottish clan who informs me that its chiefly family are L21, like our McWho Livingstones. This clan is not too far from the Clan Livingstone lands. The L21 mutation appears as the 'genetic body' of a good few Highland clans and is very likely Scots or Pictish. L21 is the biggest DNA tested group in the McDonalds, it accounts for one third of Campbells and a group in Clan McKenzie – said to be the old chiefly line.

I always thought my particular Wilsons were Norman and Lowland Scottish but DNA research is changing my situation. I can only watch, and wait, to see if my own Wilson family is a sept of Clan Livingstone, McPherson or Ferguson as our McWho DNA Project has a genetic-branch consisting of surnames derived from the personal name Fergus. Our project site can be viewed at: http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/MacWho_results.htm

I hope this is of interest.

Yours sincerely,

John Wilson of Kilwinnet

John!

It is very nice to see you on this forum. I am sure it is one you can contribute to very positively, and one which shares many interests with you. As a rare case of a person who has close DNA matches with nearly every form of surname known to this clan (I think the current count is Livingston, Livingstone, McClay, Maclay, McLay), you must surely feel a strong kinship!!

Best Regards
Andrew

Yes Andrew I do! Kinship in Scotland is complex and is sort of measured in "portions" As a Wilson, genetically, I see all my McWho cousins as kin including the Livingstones. Fully understanding the clan system helps a little - it is not clear cut. You need to regard you personal pedigree as being just as important as your male line of descent. Every person on your pedigree is like a ticket to kinship and a deep understanding of who you really are. Any form of kinship leads to friendship with many others and hopefully DNA will make us all understand that we are indead one family on Earth.

While the DNA project is very interesting to me, I feel perhaps a bit thick when reading forum posts on the subject. I tried looking up “L21 mutation” using Google – but only found descriptions of when and where it developed – not what it is or how it is discernible. I purchased a layman’s book on DNA (“Genetics for Dummies”), and at least I now understand what an STR stutter is – but I was very disappointed that the book completely skips the subject of gene mapping, and only briefly touches on mutations. Does anyone have a recommendation of a book with a more thorough overview of the subject? (I don’t mind if it is technical in nature – but please bear in mind my background is in the physical, rather than biological sciences).