Angus Livingstone& Margaret (Hall/McPhail), Shiaba, Mull

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Donald,

I missed half of my last posting regarding Andrew L & Patrick Lewis, it appears that whoever transcribed the census returns, somehow managed to combine two separate returns into one.
If you have another look at Ancestry, you will see that the address for Patrick is Calton Entry, & for Andrew, Moncur Street, I've requested Ancestry to rectify this error.

I checked the OPR for birth of Agnes, spelling is Edmiston, it only appears to change when she moves to the west coast, so I'm going to stick with the OPR spelling.
I suppose, like Livingstone, spelling of most names, has been written as per how the registrar or other official thinks is correct,

John.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,
If it is in birth record "Edmiston" it would certainly indicate that is likely the parent's preferred spelling. I noticed doing a search in familysearch.org that there apparently families in West Lothian going by the name Edmiston and Edmonston so it could be like Livingstone or Livingston with our clan. I wonder if any Edmistons or Edmonstons have done research on spelling variations.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

I copied it all down rather quickly before but this is basic summary of what I found pertaining to Andrew Livingston son of Gavin in the 1881 and 1891 Census. By the time of the 1881 and in the 1891 Census he is single and living on his own.

1881 Census

Alva, Stirlingshire
Hugh Livingston age 42 born Oban (Argyllshire)
Margaret Livingston age 54 born Stirlingshire
James Stewart Livingston age 16 son
ALexander Stewart Livingston age 10 son
Thomas Crawford age 17
Andrew Livingston age 14 born Stirling, Stirlingshire age 14 boarder
I am wondering if this Hugh Livingston was an Uncle of Andrew's? I dont know of an Oban connection to the family but we know that these descendants of old ANgus did move around all over the place i guess where ever they could find work. I tried to find this Hugh before the 1861 Census but had no luck tracing him or his family roots. I think as earlier mentioned I thought Hugh's wife Margaret was either a Stewart or Lochhart/Lockhart but I am not even a 100 per cent certain of that.

1891 Census Calton District Glasgow Barony
this residence appears to be a large boarder house as there are a large list of boarders include in this census record that I am not including. Andrew Livingstone appears to be the superintendent of this boarding house. It appears to be residence of Patrick Lewis an Irish shoemaker and his daughters.
Patrick Lewis age 52 born Ireland shoemaker
Margaret Lewis age 24 daughter
Mary Lewis age 19 daughter
Ellen Lewis age 17 daughter
Andrew Livingstone age 24 son? (likely not Patrick's son) occupation lodging house superintendent
large number of boarders follow these names
regards

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,
I think you may of posted this info when you located Chelsea Pensioners information from the Hospital of Chelsea pensioners pension records. I don't remember all of this to be honest.

Anyways I thought I saw a couple of things I perhaps had not noticed before.

Uk Royal Hospital of Chelsea Pensioners Registers Rifle Brigade of the Fencibles
Angus Livingston 4 3/4 pounds? date of admission January 4 1802 residence Argyll
Died 30/10 "Paisley" under 1847 column beside ANgus Livingston info


Most important I noticed there is cryptic note by a clerk which appears to refer to Angus and that has some of office code with illegible numbers a word I cant read that make no apparent sense to me. What I can read says "died" and then the number 30/10 under the 1847 printed column on the page and the word "Paisley" also appears. I showed it to my wife and she agreed that the legible part of the side note for Angus Livingston seems to clearly state "Died Paisley 30/10" under an 1847 printed column. There were several columns by year from the 1840's to 1856 on a ledger page. Some of the members of the regiment had a legible death date others just a coded scribble beside the word died. Perhaps some sort office record reference info numbers that only made sense to them. Anyways it could mean he died in 1847 and in Paisley, Scotland. I really don't know for sure, but for a moment I thought I was very close to finding when Angus died. If only they had more clear as they did with some of the other pensioners on the list. Just luck I guess. My guesstimate has alway been that he died sometime between the 1841 and before the 1851 Scottish Census so maybe what they mean by putting died in the 1847 column is that he died in 1847 and makes sense they would make a note of that in their office records as otherwise they would consider him still living and eligible to receive a pension however in those days the chelsea pensioners received their pension money. Anyways this bit of information written beside his entries could be a clue to what happened to your ancestor after the 1841 Census information.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

This message below a while back from James Russell mentions his ancestor a descendant of Jane/Jean Livingston born or baptised in 1829 apparently a daughter of Angus Livingston and Margaret McPhail or Hall. The interesting thing if I understand correctly was married in 1848 in Paisley Renfrewshire according this gentleman. If so then there is one relative of Angus Livingston who may have been in the Paisley area in 1847 when ANgus Livingston apparently died.

To the Ladies & Gentlemen of this forum I say "many thanks".
Let me explain.

I am James Russell b. Glasgow & now living in West Lothian, Scotland.
My family history has been on the back burner for 8 or more years.
On Sat 24Jun12 I received my Glasgow & West Of Scotland FHS quarterly magazine and saw an
entry that the LDS website had been updated.
I took a look.
I quickly found things that had not been available in previous years.
Suitably stimulated, I Googled a few names including Livingston & McPhail.
BINGO - I found your forum.

I am a direct descendant of Jane Livingston ch.28Jan1829.
You have almost no info on this lady so here goes.

My fathers father was
John Russell b.08Mar1893 Glasgow d.23Nov78 Lancaster
His parents were
John Russell b.18Sep1845 Carnwath d.08Oct1898 Glasgow.
Janet (Jessie) Logan b.13Mar1857 Glasgow d.14Feb1938 Glasgow.

Janet Logans parents were
Edward (Jacob) Logan b.1824-25 85 Trongate Glasgow d.15Mar1895 Poorhouse Glasgow
Jane (Jean) Livingston ch.18Jan1829 as above.

In 2001 I viewed their marraige OPR at Park Circus Glasgow viz
Married 26Dec1848 in Paisley by Rev. M Laxton
Jacob Logan (24) weaver of Castle St High Par. Paisley
Jane Livingston (20) of Croft St High Par. Paisley
No entries for Parents or witnesses.

In 2002 I visited the Mitchell Library in Glasgow.
I obtained copies of 4 x Poor Law records re the pair
viz
01May1861
by Edward Logan & Jean Livingstone
resident - 139 Great Eastern Road Glasgow
cause of application - Ill Health
his occupation - weaver
children
Margaret (8) born 'Gorbals or Govan'
Janet (6) born Camlachie
Andrew (2 & half) born Camlachie
James (12) b. Paisley (not living at home)
(Parents - no entries)
later entries are
03May1861 Refused - able bodied and working
29Aug1862 Roll @ 2/6 w each & app father
05Feb1863 Not Found
01Jun1863 Poho
1863 Children on Orphan Roll.

20Dec1861
by Edward Logan & Jean Livingston
resident - 139 Great Eastern Road Glasgow
cause of application - "Wife Ill Health and he cannot get leaving her to look for work, leaving no person -------"
his occupation - weaver
her occupation - domestic
children
James (11) born Quin St Paisley
Margaret (7) born Stirling St Laurieston Govan
Janet (6) born Present House
Andrew (2 & half) born Present House
Parents
"James Logan & Janet Wood Deceased" and "Angus Livingston & Margt McPhail Deceased"
later entry
23Dec1861 Roll 4/- w 4 w

07Feb1865
by Edward Logan
residence - "walking the streets" & "Idle & Destitute"
born - 85 Trongate Glasgow
Condition - Widower Age - 40 Occupation - Weaver
children
Margaret (10) born Stirling St Govan
Janet (6 & 10/12) born 163 Gt Eastern Road
"both children with friends in Islay"
Other info
"son of James Logan a wright who died about 20 yrs ago and Janet Wood who died about 4 yrs ago"
"Protestant"
On the reverse of the form is a list of 19 addresses where he had lived in the previous 12 years.
The times spent are listed against each address, mostly Govan, Gorbals, Glasgow & Barony.

15Feb1893
by Edward Logan
residence - 18 Bluevale St back rt
"Earns from 10/- to 12/- wk in Laird & Thomsons" but complains of being "idle for 2 weeks" re no work during the winter.
"He complains of Bronchitis"
"Wife complains of palpitations of the heart. She informs me that she is debt to everyone through idleness of husband"
"They appear decent".
Parents
"James Logan joiner & Mary Woods both dead"
Wife
Agnes O'Neil born Gt Eastern Rd 60yrs domestic "daughter of Hugh O'Neil weaver and Janet Little both dead".
"No family by present marraige"
"1st wife Jane Livingstone died 30yrs ago".
Family
Margaret (40) 16yrs in Australia
Janet (34) 20 yrs in Australia
Andrew (32) 20 yrs in Australia
"No word from the above - cant say whether dead or alive"
The reverse is full of notes re this and later applications.
Of interest are
08Mar1895 Edward admitted to Poho & died on 15Mar1895
On 03Nov1896 & again on 24Dec1896 "Widow" admitted to Poorhouse.
18Jan1897 "she died suddenly at 18 Bluevale and burial granted"


Sadly I have no original documents for Jane Livingston.
I have 2 letters addressed to Margaret Monaghan (Logan) dated 1925 when she was trying to trace
her dob with the Parish of Glasgow. She was then living in Fife but who knows if the others were in Australia.

I have no record of Jane Livingstons death but I'm now sure I will find it.
It appears she died Feb/March/April/May 1863.
The entry "01Jun1863 Poho" is significant - Edward is admitted to the Poorhouse.
The entries with the addresses show he moved house about March 1863 having lived 9 months in Society St Barony.
Thereafter he moves from address to address, some of which are Model Lodging Houses.

My father used to say that the Livingstons were from Islay and also that they were related to Dr David Livingston.
About 25 yrs ago I viewed his family tree at the Blantyre Visitor Centre and was told that many Livingston's claim descent.
I was not surprised when I read your forum entries re Dr Livingston.

So its thanks again to this forum.
My LDS printout dated 29Aug01 with Angus & Mrs Kall/Hall/Hale noted as "probable" has proved to be correct.
You have filled in many holes in the Livingston tree and have also rekindled my interest in genealogy.

Jim Russell

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

Just to refresh my memory a bit here is Edward and Jean Logan in Paisley circa 1851 in the 1851 Scottish Census

Paisley High Church, Renfrewshire 25 Castle Street
Edward Logan b. Glasgow lanarkshire 1821 age 30 Hand Loom weaver
Jean Logan b. Islay, Argyllshire 1829 age 22 Weaver winder
James Logan b. Paisley Renfrewshire abt. 1850 age 1

Marriage record 1848
Jacob Logan age 24 weaver Castle St. Paisley (Jacob is bit confusing but I agree with James that it is obviously the same person as Edward Logan even residing at the same address in Paisley.)
Jane livingston age 20 Croft St. Paisley
married December 26,1848

The 1851 Census info indicates that Jean Logan (Jane Livingston) was born in Islay, Argyllshire. The baptismal record for Angus Livingston and Margaret Halls daughter Jane Livingston was baptised January 18, 1829 in Kilfinchen and Kilvickeon Parish Parents Angus Livingston pensioner and Margaret Hall residing at the time of the baptism in what looks like "Siaba" which is obviously Shiaba. I think that the Islay info is likely an error by her husband or the census taker given perhaps to the fact that by 1851 or before that ANgus or some of the family may have ended on the Isle of Islay. I remember you told me that some of Angus Livingston's family ended up in Islay. I think that information that James found in his research indicates that Edward Logan's wife was the daughter of Angus Livingston an Margaret McPhail or Hall one way or the other. So I guess what I am suggesting is that the little side note " Paisley died 30/10 under 1847 is likely referring to the information the office of the Chelsea Pensioners Hosptial received that Angus Livingston died OCtober 30, 1847 in Paisley, Renfrewshire. I think the above info supports the possibility of this being correct. If so then the mystery of what happened to old Angus Livingston born apparently in Shiaba, Kilfinchen and Kilvickeon Parish, Ross of Mull, Argyllshire, Napoleonic War veteran and Chelsea hospital Pensioner may be finally solved. Or at least when and where he died.

To recap 10 yrs earlier the 1841 Scottish Census info for Angus Livingston we see that he is living at a croft at Urigaig in the Isle of Colonsay though at that time Colonsay records were stored at Jura Parish and that may be why it states Jura Parish rather than Colonsay in Angus Livingston's census record. Anyways Urigaig or however it is correctly spelled is definitely in Colonsay and Island very close to south Western Ross of Mull where Angus and family had lived prior to the 1840's. Most importantly for the family researcher the 1841 census info shows that the youngest child of Angus and his wife Margaret was indeed a Jean or Jane Livingston born abt. 1830 or 1829 which is apparently the case. It seem a logical scenario the old ANgus and his wife Margaret probably left Colonsay with one of these children listed in the 1841 Census as in the 1840's there were apparently clearances taking place in Ross of Mull. And it was reasonable to assume that either son James, Hugh or daughters Ann or Jean would of been living with one or both of the elderly parents before their death prior to 1851 but sometime after 1841. The question has always been which one they were living with and where they died. I think we now have a significant lead that old ANgus livingston probably died in 1847 in Paisley, Renfrewshire which significantly was where his youngest child Jean or Jane Livingston married Edward or Jacob Logan a year later. Also of possible significance is that according to Jim ( I not checked the marriage record myself yet) the marriage record states that Jean or Jane Livingston was a resident at the time of her marriage in Paisley. I had a hunch that the "Paisley" info I found on Angus Livingston's pension record document might indicate that he was living with one of his children or nearby at the time of his death and checking all of our earlier postings on the forum I noticed sure enough that a daughter of old ANgus was at Paisley and most importantly around the apparent year ANgus died. Anyways I know you have spent a lot of time in the last ten years on your ancestor and his family line so hopefully this will prove to be of some help to your family research project. Have you thought about writing a family history booklet on your Livingston line?
Also
1862 Death of Jean Logan
High Church District Burgh of Glasgow
Jean Logan married to Edward Logan Handloom Weaver died January 2, 1862 age 34 years of Consumption at residence of Edward Logan Parents recorded: Angus Livingston farmer deceased and Agnes Livingston maiden name "McPhail". Obviously Agnes is an error on husband Edward's part. He should have stated Margaret Livingston maiden name McPhail. This record of course helps to verify that Jean or Jane Logan wife Edward Logan was in fact a daughter of your ancestor ANgus Livingston. THe death record tells us that Jean Logan had been suffering from Consumption for at least one year before she died which ties in with info that James found from the Poor Law records which state that in 1861 Edward Logan's wife was ill.

Those Poor Law records James found as other records I have seen over the years show the state of poverty that many of our highland Livingstons induced in the 1800's both in Argyllshire and in Lowland Scotland. Many of our clan that were able to remain in Western Argyllshire were actually worse of for remaining and in some cases reduced to being paupers in the 1800's as the situation for tenant farmers deteriorated. The family of the famous Donald Livingston 1728-1816 of Savary, Morvern are an unfortunate example of that.


regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,
I am including this earlier informative postings and family chronology of yours as a tie in to my latest find on ANgus Livingston possibly circa 1847 in Paisley, Refrewshire where he apparently died according to a brief entry note included with a Chelsea Hospital Pensioners document which includes written entries with death info for many of the veterans list in a list of those of the RIfle brigrade of the Fencibles which would be the Argyll Fencibles.

Posts on Angus & Margaret appear to be getting a bit messy, with bits of information spread in various areas of other topics, hopefully it can all be brought together at this location, & will make life easier for everyone to check out the contents.

Below is a brief timeline on Angus, parts of this are known to be correct, some are speculation at present,

1.1775 - Angus b. abt. 1775 @ Shiaba, Mull.

2.1779- Census 1779 has Neil, occ. keeper, sons Donald & Angus, plus wife & 4 daughters, Neil is possibly father of Angus b. abt. 1775.

3.1787/8 - Angus joins army, probably before 1787-8, he would probably have to be around 12 years old to enlist, he was out of the army with a pension by 1804-5, this would just cover the minimum 12 year service requirement to be classed as a Chelsea Pensioner at that time.

4. 1802 - Angus found as a patient in Kilmainham Military Hospital, Dublin.

5.1804/5- Angus marries Margaret Hall (McPhail ?? ) probably 1804-5 possibly earlier, Margarets birthplace unknown, listed in some records as “foreign places”, possibly her father was also in the military. Most records seem to think her family were also from Mull originally.

6.1805– First daughter b. Glasgow, Angus working in textile industry.

7.1806/7– Family return to Mull, rest of family born on Mull.

8.1824/29– No further family born from 1824-29, where was Angus in this period, possibly back in the army ??

9.1840- Somewhere around this time, Angus, Margaret & some family members move from Mull to Uragaig, Colonsay.

10.1841- Scottish census of 1841 has Angus, Margaret & some family members, plus the illusive James, all resident at Uragaig, Colonsay. Their son John & wife Agnes had a son Neil, b. abt. 10.06.1842 on Colonsay, so far not found out if they were also resident at Uragaig, Colonsay.

11.1841- Neither Angus or Margaret have been found in any records since 1841.


John

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

To further support the information side note included in the CHelsea Hosptital pension info of your ancestor ANgus Livingston that he died 30/10 1847 in Paisley is the fact that I overlooked that his son Hugh Livingston, his wife Jean Shannon and their family were also living in Paisley in the year that it is stated in the record that ANgus Livingston died. The 1851 Census info for his son Hugh "Levingston" shows that in 1851 he and his family had been living in Paisley HIgh CHurch, Renfrewshire for at least 5 years given that it states that a son Hugh Levingston jr. age 5 was born in Paisley where as an older daughter Margaret age 7 was born in Glasgow. So from that I assume that the son Hugh was in Paisley from at least about 1846 probably close to a year perhaps a little more before the Chelsea Hosptial Pension record states that old Angus Livingston died in Paisley. So significantly we have not one but two children of ANgus Livingston living in Paisley at the time of his apparent death in 1847 in Paisley. Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I noticed that Hugh like Edward Logan his brother in law is also involved in weaving in Paisley acccording to the 1851 Census. Again just to recap:

1851 Census Paisley High Park, Renfrewshire 5 Cross St.
Hugh Levingston age 30 b. Lochabban, Argyllshire Hand loom weaver
Jean Levingston age31 born Lochabban, Argyllshire
Margaret Levingston age 7 born Glasgow
Hugh Levingston age 5 born Paisley
Robert Levingston age 2 born Paisley

When I first saw Paisley I was not entirely certain that I could find any means to verify that this could be where your ancestor died but this additional info clearly supports the Chelsea Hospital pension record side note under the 1847 column with Angus Livingston's other info I mentioned earlier and of course the significant of "Paisley" being mentioned as the location of his death. Once again I have to say "Bingo" !!!!!!

regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Donald,

I've not had time as yet to study most the above posts, will do asap, I did have a look at Angus' discharge papers, what I have is the original paperwork issued on 21 Dec. 1801, at Kells, I'm assuming this is the town of Kells in County Meath, about 40 miles from Dublin, as he had just been discharged from Kilmainham Royal Military Hospital, Dublin.

What you have found appears to be an updated version, with the registration date for his pension at Chelsea/Kilmainham on 04 Jan. 1802, and also his death on 30 Oct. 1847 at Paisley, so congratulations on digging out a bit more info. on Angus.

If you got a copy of the above, could you email it to me please, the copy I have, does not have the additional info. on date of death etc.

I'm not 100% certain if the Hugh you found is the son of Angus, I have a feeling I have a census for the same year, which has him living in Glasgow, I'll check & get back to you.

Jean/Jane Logan, I have some BDM certificates, which I will email to you in the next couple of days.

I'm busier now, than when I was working full time, again, thanks for spotting the info on Angus,

John

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Donald,

Just checked on Hugh, you had it right about him staying in Paisley, I've got his son Robert being christened while resident at 4, Moncrieff St., Paisley,

John