Achabeg, Morvern, Argyl and Ohio Livingston Connection

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Re: Achabeg, Morvern, Argyl and Ohio Livingston Connection

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:19 am

Hi Kristen,

Yes your quite right there are two Duncan Livingston birth entries one for 1810 and 1811. I came to same conclusion as you that it seems quite certain to two Livingston boys to Duncan and Catharine Livingston of Morvern were born: but only one can be their son Duncan, so the could very well be Hugh. It can't be Angus because the his son's Ohio bio gives the full birth date of Angus Livingston as being in the year 1808. As Hugh is missing a birth record and there are two Duncan Livingston entries one of them could be for Hugh.
Duncan Livingston Sr. b. 1770's Morvern, Argyll d. bef. 1841 Morvern Parish m. Catharine Cameron b. bet. 1773-1775 Morvern, Argyll d. Sept. 30,1855 Wheelersburgh,Scioto County, Ohio. Catharine Livingston buried in Old Wheelersburg Cemetery
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.c ... i=70586749

Known Children of Duncan Livingston Sr. and Catharine (Katrine) Cameron
Morvern Parish
1.John Livingston (apparently the eldest) no birth record born between 1800 and 1804 Morvern, Scotland I suspect.

2. Anne Livingston born July 15, 1804 Achlinan,(Acheleanan) Morvern

3. Donald Livingston born Dec. 28, 1806 Portvada, (Portabhata) Morvern d. 1877 Lochaline, Morvern m. Betty McInnes of Savary, Morvern

4. Angus Livingston born Jan.16,1808 Barr, Morvern (Source for this entry: Bio of Duncan Livingston of Scioto County, Ohio 1903)

5. Duncan Livingston born Feb. 11, 1810 Barr, Morvern

6. Duncan Livingston born Nov 30, 1811 Barr, Morvern (Assumed one of these Duncan birth entries could be brother Hugh's. I don't think the age given for Hugh in the 1841 Morvern Census is necessarily correct.) The ages given for the Scioto County Livingstons in the subsequent U.S Censuses are for example all over the place in terms of the other Livingston brothers in America.

Note Achleanan where Ann was born and Portabhata where her brother Donald was born are beside each other and Barr where Angus, Duncan and possibly Hugh was born is beside Achleanan, so this proximity further reinforces the understanding that all these children were children of the the one and same Duncan and Catharine Livingston or as we know them Duncan Livingston Sr. and Catharine Cameron. Not sure when the widow Catharine and the rest of her Livingston kin ended up in those two crofts at Achabegg near Savary, Morvern. All I know is that there were some early clearances as far back the mid 1820's of some tenants in Barr, so it may have been at that time that widow Catharine and her children were compelled to Barr for some other settlement which may have been some other place before they arrived in Achabegg sometime before 1841. Regarding Achabegg what we do really know for certain from the 1841 Census is that the widow Catharine her younger son Duncan jr. and one of the Burke boys were living in one croft and in the next one was your Hugh Livingston, Euphemia and their children in 1841. And from Catharine's children's birth records from the first decade of the 1800's we know that Catharine with her husband Duncan Livingston Sr. and her children were residing elsewhere further north of Achabegg near the North west coast Morvern at three settlements Acheleanan, Portabhata and Barr.

You asked about Angus Livingston's "Uncle John" John Livingston of Oneida County, NY. More on Duncan's brother John Livingston b. 1773 who settled in New York State sometime between 1810 and 1815 in my next post.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Achabeg, Morvern, Argyl and Ohio Livingston Connection

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:13 pm

Hi Kristen,
Regarding "Uncle John" Livingston Uncle to Angus Livingston son of Duncan Livingston Sr. and Catharine Cameron of Morvern.
According to the 1903 brief biography of Duncan Livingston 1850-1910 of Scioto County, Ohio son of Angus Livingston, when the father Angus Livingston b. 1808 in Barr, Morvern, (son of the late Duncan Livingston Sr. and Catharine Cameron), first came to America from Scotland in the 1840's he visited his Uncle, John Livingston of "Westmoreland" Oneida County, New York State. John Livingston was born abt. 1774 or 1773 presumingly in Morvern, Argyll, Scotland and in Savary. By 1808 or perhaps a little earlier he was living and probably working in lowland Scotland as a number of Argyllshire Livingstons were by this time, and on June 17, 1808 in Eastwood, Renfrewshire, Scotland married Elizabeth Cameron. Elizabeth Cameron was born abt. 1773 in Scotland. The following year on April 17, 1809 their eldest child Hugh Livingston was born in 1809 in Glasgow, Lanarkshire Scotland.

Sometime between 1810 and 1812 I presume "Uncle" John Livingston Sr, his wife Elizabeth Cameron and his young son Hugh arrived in America and eventually settled in Kirkland, Oneida County, New York State sometime before 1820. A daughter Janet (Mrs. Resolve Healy) is born in New York State in 1812 1813 or 1814 depending on which source you look at. 2 other daughters born in New York State presumingly after Janet but before the 1820 U.S Census are not apparently known to family researchers. Heres the thing about the Janette or Janet Healy info: In the 1850 Census at Kirkland Oneida County Janette residing with her husband Resolve Healy is recorded as being age 36 suggesting she was born in New York State around the year 1814. The 1860 Census Kirkland, Oneida County post office Clinton, Jannette Healy age given is 47 making her birth date possible around 1813. In the 1865 Census her given age is 53 giving and approximate birth date of about 1812. In 1870 she is recorded as being 59 which would make her birth date possibly 1811 which is unlikely. In the 1880 Census Janette's age given is 66 which would make her born abt. 1814. Janette Healy died in 1898 and buried at Clark Mills in Kirkland Cemetery it states she was 85 when she died 1898 suggestion she born abt. 1813 or possibly 1812. So which is it?

In 1820 Census John Livingston is recorded in his first U.S Census residing with his family in Whitestown, Kirkland, Oneida County, New York State. 3 Family members "not naturalized" presumingly refers to John Livingston Sr. born in Scotland, his wife Elizabeth Cameron and their eldest child Hugh Livingston born in 1809 in Scotland not having taking up their American citizenship and pledged no further connection to Great Britain as was required in those days in the years following the American Revolution in order to become an American.This confirms that Hugh a son was the only child born in Scotland. This 1820 Census records that there are a total of 6 Children in the household. 3 boys at the time the census was recorded and one them who would be Hugh is between the age of 10 and 15 and the other 2 boys under the age of 10. The Census also indicates that there are a total of 3 girls all under the age of 10. One of those daughters was Janet Livingston (Mrs. Resolve Healy) born either in 1812 or 1814 in New York State. Janet married Resolve Healy in 1831 and they were neighbours of her father John Livingston at Waterville, Oneida County in the 1840's and 1850s, before John' death in 1855. His wife Elizabeth predeceased him and died a few years earlier in 1849. I don't know the names as yet of the other two daughters born between 1810 and 1820 according to the 1820 Census.

The two sons born in America between 1810 and 1820 were according to one knowledgeable family researcher were apparently twins born abt. 1819 at the family home in Kirkland, Oneida County, John A Livingston b. abt. 1819 d. 1884 and his brother Allen C. (Cameron?) Livingston. b. abt. 1819 d. 1877. John A Livingston m. Jane Gridley and Allen A. Livingston m. Ordelia French on January 14, 1856.

The 1830 U.S Census indicates that John Livingston, his Elizabeth and the children continue to reside in Kirkland, Oneida County, NY. There remains only 6 children as recorded in the previous 1820 census. From this census it is known in terms of the children that there is one male over 20 by 1830 who was the eldest son Hugh born in Scotland, and then two males age 10-14 who would the twins John A Livington and Allen C. Livingston born abt. 1819. With the girls there they are recorded as being females 2 between the ages of 15-19 one of which would be Janette the other daughter in this age range unknown but from this we know she would have born sometime between 1811 and 1815, apparently being close in age with the only know daughter Jannette. The Third and apparently youngest daughter also unknown is recorded in this 1830 census as being a female age between 10 and 14 which would suggest she was born 1816 and 1820 at Kirkland, Oneida County, NY.

The 1840 U.S Census indicates that John Livingston and his wife Elizabeth continue to reside in Kirkland,Oneida County with most of the children having married and departed. On Nov. 23, 1849 John's wife Elizabeth died and she was buried at Clark Mills at the Kirkland Cemetery there. By the time of the 1850 Census John Livingston, now a widower has his daughter Janette or Janet and his son in law Resolve Healy and their children living beside him. Also of interest is the fact that by 1850 his sister Mary Livingston Boyd who I assume is also a widowed person has moved in with her brother John.

Duncan Livingston 1850-1810 son of Angus Livingston of Scioto County, Ohio in a Scottish history article about the Appin Regiment at the Battle of Culloden in 1746, which Duncan wrote in the 1890's and was published in the Celtic Monthly mentioning his Morvern relatives in America, he notes that Mary Livingston Boyd and her sister Sarah Livingston Burke (Mrs. William Burke) were sisters and they were infact daughters of (Hugh) Livingston of Savary the brother of Donald Livingston 1728-1816 of Savary, Morvern. Duncan in his youth in Ohio had met a number of Morvern Livingston relatives who had settled in America and it from these two elderly Nieces of famous Donald Livingston of Savary, Morvern that he learned much about his Morvern Livingston family and their families connection to famous Morvern Jacobite Donald Livingstone of Savary, MOrvern As a young man of 18, Donald Livingstone joined the Jacobite cause during the 1745 Rebellion and was at the famous Battle of Culloden serving in the Appin Regiment, when in April of 1746, Bonnie Prince Charlie and all the regiments supporting him were defeated by the Duke of Cumberland and his Army. Young Donald Livingstone heroically wrapped the fallen Appin regiment standard around himself as the last standard bearer fell and he torn the banner from the staff. Against all odds fled the the battlefield and that survived that scene of terrible carnage and managed to avoid capture that day. For some time after Culloden he was in hiding back in Argyllshire where he was able to return the Appin Banner to the Appin Stewarts. Capt. Charles Stewart of the Appin Stewarts the commander of the Regiment was himself in hiding in Appin but presumingly before he fled to France in exile, Donald was able pass the Banner on to him or to others of his family. Subsequently it ended with neighbouring Ballachulish Stewarts where it remained until the early twentieth century.

Back to Uncle John Livingston back in Kirkland, Oneida County, New York State. On July 16, 1854 John Livingston died age 81 years 11 months according to his tombstone at Clark Mills in the Kirkland Cemetery there which would suggest he was born closer to 1773 than 1774 in Morvern, Scotland if that info is correct. John is buried with his wife Elizabeth who died a few years earlier as mentioned in 1849. By the time of the 1860 census then both old John Livingston and his wife Elizabeth are deceased but his daughter Janette Healy is still residing at Kirkland, Oneida County with husband Resolve and children and John's elderly sister Mary Livingston Boyd now 85 is living with her niece Janette and the Healy family according to the 1860 Census. I assume that Mary dies not too long after that, but I don't have any info her death date. I think that Duncan Livingston's article in the 1890's indicates she died in the 1860's and her sister Sarah Livingston Burke (Mrs. WIlliam Burke) later in Ohio where she lived. They were both born in their 1770's and according to Duncan Livingston of Scioto County, Ohio as a boy gave him accounts about Donald Livingston and his adventures during the 1745 Rebellion that they had likely received first hand from old Donald in their younger days in Morvern. As old Donald Livingstone of Savary Morvern lived till the year 1816 it is almost certain these two elderly relatives born in the 1770's in Morvern would have have been in contact with Donald LIvingtone their Uncle on a number of occasions before his death in 1816 in their younger years before they ended up years later in America. Duncan also mentions he heard these stories from other Morvern Livingston relatives who had settled in America whom his father Angus and the family had contact with years later in America either in Ohio or in neighbouring New York State.

A family researcher I noticed has done extensive research on most of the known children of John Livingston and Elizabeth Cameron and what became of them after they married and left the farm in Oneida County. More on them in the future perhaps.

Hope this helps to give a good sense of "Uncle" John Livingston of Kirkland, Oneida County, New York State and his likely connection to your own Morvern Livingston family.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Achabeg, Morvern, Argyl and Ohio Livingston Connection

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:47 am

Hi Kristen,
Heres a better idea.
Perhaps the story of Mary Boyd Livingston and Sarah Livingston Burke can be better explained by Angus Livingston's son Duncan Livingston 1850-1910 of Scioto County, Ohio, Lawyer and family historian and his Editor I assume. Here is a quote from his article, "The Stewarts of Appin at Culloden" Part 2 pgs. 119-120 published in the March 1896 issue of the Celtic Monthly:

"The story of the preservation of the Appin banner at Culloden the writer has often heard as a child from two nieces of Donald Livingstone, Mrs. Mary Livingstone Boyd and Mrs. Sarah Livingston Burke who got the same from the lips of Donald himself. The former Mrs Boyd died in the early part of the sixties and the latter Mrs. Burke in the early part of the seventies, both at a ripe old age. They were daughters of Eoghan or Ewen (Hugh). He also heard it when a child and after arriving at manhood from eight other descendants of Ewen among whom the story is well known, as well as from several persons familiar with the traditions of Morvern."


This would article of Duncan's was written about three years before the 1899 letter which same Duncan Livingston wrote to your and Stephen's Livingston relative and in which he refers to her as "cousin".

Would be nice if there were more documents like that 1899 letter still in the possession of your Livingston relatives, but I suspect that letter surviving all these years was just an amazing piece of luck. Not only that it is amazing mentioned a family connection "cousin" apparently linking the Scotio County Livingstons with your Lawrence County Livingston apparent and also referring to the elderly Betty Mcinnes (Mrs Donald Livingston) of Lochaline, Morvern in that 1899 letter as "Aunt Betty". Duncan also makes it a priority to search for your ancestor Hugh Livingston's grave which he located in Keil Cemetery in Morvern and inform his cousin that found the grave. Thank goodness Stephen kept this letter safe and sound after his father died and that his father also made and effort all those years ago to take possession of this very valuable source of family information.

Duncan Livingston only child of Angus Livingston and his wife Margaret Livingston died in 1910. I would wager than Duncan left behind family research notes, but I think it sadly unlikely that those notes would have been saved by the executor of his estate and donated to a historical society or a library in Ohio. Fortunately Duncan did leave behind an article mainly about the Western Argyllshire, Appin Stewart regiment at the Battle of Culloden in April of 1746 during the final battle of the Jacobite Rebellion of 1745/46 which mentions his relative Donald Livingstone 1728-1816 of Savary, Morvern who served as a private in this Appin Regiment and his rescuing of the fallen Appin Regiment's banner on the Culloden battlefield. Most importantly to you and Stephen in his 1896 article as noted above, he mentions two of Donald's elderly nieces Mary Livingston Boyd and Sarah Livingston Burke and acknowledges them as his principal sources of first hand information on the Battle of Culloden and Donald Livingstone's experiences on that day in 1746. Also the brief bio on Duncan himself published in 1903 and written by a lawyer acquaintance from Ohio, which mentions in some detail Duncan's family background, his father Angus Livingston detailed birth info not found anywhere else and when father Angus Livingston came to Ohio. And invaluable source. Finally the 1899 letter of Duncan's remarkably surviving over the years, retrieved by Stephen's father and passed on to Stephen who then shared it with us. If you had not found out about Stephen and contacted him we would not be this far ahead in your family research and Stephen would not fully realize the full significance of that letter. So while there could have been much more to learn if only we had access to the late Ohio Livingston family historian, Duncan Lvingston's notes, we have found some significant family details from what information trail he have found connected to him. I would like to think Duncan would be pleased to know that his own research is of interest and benefiting other Livingston researchers more than a 100 years later.


regards,

Donald







regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Re: Achabeg, Morvern, Argyl and Ohio Livingston Connection

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:12 am

Hi Kristen,

Couple of things came to my mind. You were asking about the possibility that one of those two birth dates for Duncan Sr. and Catharine's son Duncan Jr could actually have another son perhaps Hugh. That has been my suspicion also. I think the minister just accidentally wrote down the father's name twice in the 1811 entry. If one of the Duncan Livingston entries is incorrect which is obviously there must have been another son born in the year of the second entry. The question is of course which one applies the Duncan Livingston Jr. who settled in Scioto County, Ohio with widowed Mother Catharine on brother Angus Levingston's farm and who lived at Achabegg with his mother as recorded in the 1841 Census. My best hunch is that the Feb. 11, 1810 birth entry at Barr, Morvern refers to Duncan Livingston Jr. and the 1811 entry which also says Duncan Livingston should be Hugh. What proof do we have that Duncan Jr. was born on Feb. 11, 1810. and not 1811 given that his census info is not entirely consistent over the years. Unlike some of the other brothers census info there is some strong evidence in at least some of the census records that he was born in 1810

In the 1880 U.S Census enumerate on June 19, 1880 the last one Duncan Livingston Jr. farmer appears he is recorded as age 70 which he would be if he was born prior to June 19th and born in February of 1810. In this census Margaret Livington now a widow and wife of late Angus Livingston is recorded as Duncan;s "in-law" confirming that Angus was brother. Also the oldest brother John Livingston age given 84 would be born as early as 1796 which would differ from other census records but most of them give him a birth date as the oldest of the sons of Duncan and Catharine born somewhere in the 1800-1804 range. 1796 is considerably earlier but it least it confirms him as the apparent eldest known son of Duncan Sr. and Catharine.

The other Census the 1841 Scottish census at Achabegg, Morvern records Duncan Livingston Jr. as age 30 also suggesting a birth date of 1810. All the other census records are all over the place apparently giving inaccurate ages at time of census taking, so they are not helpful but none give him an approximate birth date of 1811 and two give him a possible 1810 birthdate and infact as mentioned the first one 1841 and his last one 1881 Ohio clearly agree with a birth date of 1810. So my hunch is that Duncan jr. then was one born in 1810 and then the other mystery brother born in 1811 should likely have been your ancestor Hugh.

More later.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2429
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Re: Achabeg, Morvern, Argyl and Ohio Livingston Connection

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:29 pm

Hi Kristen,

Who were the parents of Duncan Livingston Sr. and Catharine Cameron? I don't have idea as yet who the parents of Catharine Cameron were. Had she stayed in Morvern and died in the year 1855 as she did that was the first detailed death information registered by the Government came into affect in Scotland and most likely it she living in Scotland in 1855, her death information would have included the names of her parents as that question is included in the original document however given she died at Wheelersburg, Scioto County, Ohio in the year 1855 there there apparently no detailed death with info on her parents available to us. Clan Cameron was located throughout Morvern as were Livingstons. Livingston often married into neighbouring families like Camerons and those of Clan McInnes who could found at Savary and elsewhere in Morvern.

It was not entirely clear to me whether Duncan Sr. likely born in the 1770's in Morvern died sometime before 1841 Morvern Census date unknown, who was married to Catharine Cameron was either the son of the old Hugh Livingston of Savary brother of Donald Livingston 1728-1816 or the grandson of that Ewen (Hugh)Livingston. Bit of a mystery for me, however an obituary from Morvern published in the Oban Times in 1912 for Old Aunt Betty " Betty Mcinnes (Mrs Donald Livingston of Lochaline, Angus Livingston's brother interestingly mentions this interesting clue to sorting this all out I think. In this portion of the Aunt Betty's obituary as you read on it refers to the famous Donald Livingston 1728-1816 of Savary Morvern as being Aunt Betty's husband Donald livings ton's "Great-Grand Uncle.". A Great-grand Uncle is by definition a brother of one's grandfather so what the author of this obituary if has the family info correct he is a saying that Betty's husband Donald Livingston 1805-1877 who predeceased her had a grandfather (Ewen (Hugh) Livingston of Savary, Morvern) who was the brother of the famous MOrvern Jacobite hero Donald Livingstone 1828-1816 of Savary. This information if correct would essentially mean that this I would think in terms of family lineage and connection to famous Donald Livingstone for Aunt Betty's husband. ( I have however some doubts that there was this extra generation that the 1912 obituary information suggests. All the other information I have found suggests that Ewen was likely the father of Duncan Livingston Sr. and for that matter his brother John Livingson 1773-1854 of NY State, sisters Sarah Livingston Burke and Mary Livingston Boyd. and this generational charts adds an additional generation that does not exist if you follow
Generation
1.Ewen (Hugh) Livingston of Savary, Morvern brother of Old Donald Livingstone 1728-1816 of Savary, Morvern

2.Unknown son of Ewen Livingstone Old Donald would have been his Uncle (Don't think this extra generation existed)

3. Duncan Livingston Sr. b. 1770's married to Catharine Cameron Old Donald would have been his Father's Uncle and therefore Duncan's Great-Uncle

4. Donald Livingston 1805-1877 married to Aunt Betty Mcinnes Old Donald was said to be Great-Grand Uncle which means Uncle of his Grandfather.

Here is an excerpt of Aunt Betty's obituary of 1912 which mentions old Donald of Savary, Morvern as being the Great grand Uncle of her late husband Donald Livingston 1805-1877 my source for this info:

Oban Times 1912 Death of Mrs Donald Livingstone of Lochaline, Morvern

"On Wednesday of last week Mrs. Donald Livingstone the oldest --------- of Morvern and most venerable person of the Parish passed quickly and peacefully away. She was born at Savary, Morvern on the 10th of January 1818 her father was..... She had attained the patriarchal age of 94. In many respects she was a most remarkable woman. For one thing her Father was Myles Mcinnes. Mr Donald Livingstone the husband of Mrs. Livingstone, predeceased her by many years. His Great-Grand Uncle was the famous Donald Livingstone who played such a heroic part on the day of Culloden (Battle of Culloden April 1746). "

The dictionary definition of Great-Grand Uncle is an Uncle of one's Grandfather or Grandmother.
If this above info on Aunt Betty's late husband is correct then Old Hugh (Ewen )Livingston of Savary the brother of Famous Donald Livingstone would have been Aunt Betty's husband's Great-grandfather not Grandfather and old Ewen would be Duncan Livingston's Sr. Grandfather not father as some might think. If this all correct and the author of the 1912 has his Morvern Livingston info correct then Sarah Livingston Burk and Mary Livingston Boyd both born in the 1770's like old Duncan Sr. could still be Nieces of old Donald Livingston just one generation more removed from him being his Great Nieces I would presume. Another wards Old Donald 1728-1816 was John Livingston's Mary Boyds Sarah Burke's and Duncan Livingston senior's Great Uncle and not their Uncle as some might think. The article from 1896 referred to Old Sarah and Mary as Donald lIvingston's nieces which they no doubt were but I think historian Duncan Livingston may have meant Great Nieces and just did not say that. In any event the 1912 Obituary of Aunt Bettys husband I think suggests John, Duncan Sr. Sarah Livingston Burke, Mary Livingston Boyd all born in the 1770's apparently were grandchildren not children of Hugh. Curiously though the 1896 article by historian Duncan Livingston of Ohio does say that Sarah and Mary were daughters of Ewen (Hugh livingstone Donald LIvingstone's brother so we seem to have two contradicting bits of information. There may be a generation error here in one of those two articles Not sure which one though. All this being said I am not sure the 1912 info is correct. It is possible that the author of the obituary and the family source was correct about the famous Donald Livingston being related to Betty's husband Donald it is possible the information is in error by one extra generation and Donald's father Duncan Sr. was actually a nephew of Donald Livingston 1728-1816 and not a great nephew.

I think a number of family connections have been successfully pieced together firstly the scioto county Livingstons and most recently your Ohio Livingstons. As far as Duncan Livingston Sr. and Catharine Cameron goes I think there is enough information to suggest they were the parents of John, Ann, Donald, Angus, Donald and Hugh who I believe was the last documented son born in 1811 in Barr, Morvern but recorded as being a second Duncan Livingston by mistake.

Regarding Duncan Livingston Sr. however I am not sure whether he is the son of Ewen Livingston or grandson and the 19th century info that we have unfortunately I think points us both ways.

One other document however which I forgot to mention which might possibly resolve this issue I am having is the 1779 Census of Argyll Inhabitants records your ancestor old Ewen Hugh Livingston at Savary Morvern living next door apparently his brother old Donald Livingstone of Savary. In Hugh's household are 6 male inhabitants including himself and 2 females. This does not sound an aged family man a grandfather whose children have all left the house and are married but rather like a family man that still has a young family my hunch is. 6 male inhabitant would include Hugh the head of the household, son John born abt. 1773 or 1774, son Duncan Sr. born sometimes in the 1770'' and apparently if this theoretical model is correct 3 other unknown sons we don't know the names of. 2 females could be Mary (Mary Livingston Boyd) and Sarah (Sarah Livingston Burke.( both born in the 1770's). Perhaps his Hugh's wife died in the 1770's and was included in a total count of female residents. There is no info on a wife in any records I have seen for Hugh so perhaps she did die before the 1779 as I am theorizing. Anyways 2 female resident of the Hugh Livingston household in the year 1779 could be Sarah and Mary said to daughters of Ewen Livingston in that 1896 article of ohio lawyer and family historian Duncan Livingstone 1850-1910 who as we know wrote the 1899 letter Stephen is lucky enough to have saved and shared with us.

So not trying to confuse regarding Duncan Livingston Sr. but rather showing you what info we have to try and figure out if Ewen Hugh Livingston of Savary brother of Old Donald was Duncan Senior's father or grandfather. 100 per cent certain it is one or the other and based on the 1896 article where Duncan and his editor clearly stated that Sarah Livingston Burke and Mary Livingston Boyd were daughters of Hugh I am pretty much decided that the slight error occurred in the 1912 Aunt Betty obituary info regarding her husband Donald's by one generation and my feeling is then that the 1912 info adds and extra generation in ancestral line between Betty's Donald and old Donald Livingston said to be his great-grand Uncle. I think he was actually his great-Uncle. His father Duncan Sr.s Uncle. So I that 1912 though of value for Showing us that Betty;s husband Donald was descended from a brother of the famous Donald Livingson for certain added an extra generation just to help confuse things for me. That must be the error given that all the other info the 1779 census suggests that Hugh had a full family of young children in 1779 at Savary which the other info suggests he did have. 2 daughters that we can confirm and 2 sons John who settled in NY states in the early 1800's with wife Elizabeth Cameron and your ancestor Duncan Livingston Sr. also apparently born in the 1770's The 1779 census suggest 3 other sons were in that Hugh Livingston household in the year 1779 at Savary but I can't really speculate as to who their names were unfortunately. But I am reasonably certain that Angus Livingston's Uncle John born abt. 1773 or 1774 was a son of Hugh as was Angus Livingston's father Duncan Livingston Sr. and the two females in the 1779 census were Hughs two daughters Mary and Sarah. Ohio Historian Duncan Livingston you will remember states in his 1896 that Hugh daughters were Mary and Sarah, so my best hunch is that with the exception of 3 unknown sons in the 1779 census this is the known family of your ancestor Ewen (Hugh) Livingston brother of the famous Morvern Jacobite Donald Livingstone 1728-1816 of Savary, Morvern. One of the frequent challenges I have faced over the years in doing genealogy is that you never find all the pieces to make perfect sense of everything and just have to work as best you can with those pieces in the puzzle you are lucky enough to locate and try to make sense of things as best you can.

Hope this presentation of the conflicting possibilities was some help.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Achabeg, Morvern, Argyl and Ohio Livingston Connection

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:57 pm

Hi Kristen,

Great that you found information circa 1849 that indicates that your ancestor Euphemia Livingston nee Campbell was at this point in time in Morvern a widow and in dire financial situation following the death of her husband Hugh Livingston of Achabegg, Morvern. That 1849 does indeed help to give us a a better sense as you indicate of when her husband Hugh died. Their last child was born in 1846, so I guess Hugh must of died sometime between 1845 and 1849 most likely. The mid 1840's were also a difficult time when Movern tenants were affected by the potato crop failure of 1846 and 1847 in Western Argyllshire which brought with it hunger, disease and ultimately clearances, migration and emigration for a significant number of the already impoverished tenants. It may be that Euphemia's husband Hugh was one of those Livingstons who died in Argyllshire of an epidemic during this period of famine.

A number of impoverished tenants ended up in Lochaline, Morvern during this period and it appears that Euphemia and her family ended up sometime following the death of her husband, perhaps by 1849 or 1848 leaving the Achabegg croft and farm unable to pay any rent I assume and from there the 1851 Census info suggests that Euphemia and her children were relocated to housing for the homeless in Lochaline, Morvern. Contemporary accounts state that Lochaline was a slum for the poorest of the poor in Morvern at this time. It is not clear precisely how long Euphemia and the children were residing at Lochaline, but I am thinking sometime between 1848 and into 1851 before later in 1851 she and her children left for America to join other relatives of her late husband who had settled in the State of Ohio. Not all of Euphemia are living at Lochaline according to the 1851 census, with some of the older ones finding work to support themselves prior to all leaving with Euphemia for America later in 1851

What I find especially interesting is that Donald Livingston (1806-1877) and wife Betty Mcinnes daughter of Miles Mcinnes and Catharine Livingston of Savary ended up locating in a croft in Achabegg, Morvern apparently not long after the birth of a daughter Caroline on Dec. 19, 1848 in Kyle, Morvern. Sometime then probably between 1849 and when the 1851 Census was taken in Morvern, Donald Livingston, his wife Betty McInnes moved in with their father Mile McInnes and his wife Catharine former residents of Savary, MOrvern who had relocated to one of the crofts at Achabegg. I suspect that Miles McInnes, his wife Catharine, their daughter Betty her husband Donald Livingston and their children were residing in a croft that had formerly been the residence of the late Hugh Livingston and his wife Euphemia and his family. I don't know precisely when Euphemia and the family left their croft at Achabegg but we do know that it must be around 1848 or 1849 probably and that their croft then would have been probably vacant around 1849 for farmer Miles Mcinnes, his wife Catharine, daughter Betty her husband Donald Livingston and their children to move into it. We also know that an earlier croft in the mid 1840's beside that one had been vacated by Hugh and Euphemia's neighbours, the widow Catharine Cameron Livingston wife the late Duncan Livingston Sr. and her son agricultural labourer Duncan Livingston Jr. born in 1810 in Barr, Morvern who all in the mid 1840's left for America to join family also in America and also eventually settling in Ohio. The timeline however for Euphemia and families likely departure from their croft at Achabegg and Miles McInnes and wife, and Donald Livingston and his Betty Mcinnes and family locating at an available croft at Achabegg probably in 1849 or 1850 suggests to me that they ended up residing in the croft formerly occupied by your ancestor the late Hugh Livingston his wife Euphemia and her family.

And as you know my best guess is also that the Donald that accompanied the widow Euphemia and family on their voyage to America is this Donald Livingston husband of Betty Mcinnes and Euphemia's brother in law and that he just briefly visited with his brothers and widowed mother in Ohio and then returned to Scotland. He is also in my view the only Donald in Morven circa 1851 that could have gone with them after checking out any other Donald Livingston's residing in Morvern circa 1851. As his farmer father in law Miles McInnes was apparently, better off than some tenant farmers in Morvern, he could look after his wife and the children while Donald was away in America for how ever long that was in 1851. There obviously was some concern about Euphemia and her children travelling on their own with Hugh having died a few years earlier and I believe that Donald felt compelled to see that she and the children arrived safely in their new home.

No doubt years later the Ohio family historian Duncan Livingston wa aware of his Uncle Duncan Livingston and the details of this story not precisely known to us when he visited Donald's widow in the year 1899 the elderly Betty McInnes Livingston in LOchaline, Morvern where she was residing at this time. Betty and her husband Donald had moved to Lochaline Morvern by the 1860's and had established merchant business there which Betty continued following her husband's death in 1877. When she died in 1912 she was well into her nineties, well respected and loved and the oldest resident of Morvern born in 1818 in Savary, Morvern. Her Grandfather Angus McInnes and her father Miles McInnes were neighbours of the famous Donald Livingston of Savary 1728-1816 and no doubt knew all the old stories about him and his adventures during the Jacobite Rebellion of 1745-1746.

That letter of 1899 that Ohio historian Duncan Livingston wrote to your relative and Stephen's reminds us Duncan's connection to his "Aunt Betty" Mrs Donald Livingston and one of the goals of his trip was obviously to have a visit with his old Aunt whom he had never met in the village of Lochaline in Morvern. Things made a lot more sense to me regarding the complexities of your Livingston family group once I read that letter. To me it helped to get us beyond speculation about the possible family connection between the Scioto and neighbouring Lawrence County, LIvingstons. Also when you found the marriage records of one of Euphemia's older daughters in Scioto County as early as 1854 there was no doubt the two Morvern Livingston families were closely related. I had always hoped I could offer you and Stephen more than just a lot of speculation about a possible family connection. While we don't have all the details I think we have pieced this together rather nicely from what we have been able to find regarding these two Livingston families from Morvern who both settled in relative close proximity to one other in Ohio.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Achabeg, Morvern, Argyl and Ohio Livingston Connection

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:08 am

Hi Kristen,
In one of earlier posts, you were considering the possibility of your ancestor Hugh Livingston being possibly the Hugh Livington son of John Livingston and Cirsty McNevin who was born in 1810 at Fernish, Morvern. That Hugh as of now can be ruled out as I am now in touch with two of his ancestors. This Hugh Livingston remained in Scotland and married a Mary McKinnon in the 1830's and one of the descendants in the latest member of our Parker Livingston DNA group and apparently there are indications that they were actually a Mull Livingston family that only briefly lived at Fernish Morvern in the early 1800's and later returned to Mull. The DNA results I think are suggesting also a Mull Livington connection rather than a Morvern connection for these Livingstons and not a close match with the Morvern Livingstons though they are connected ancestrally in the more distant Argyllshire past. So we can eliminate that Hugh Livingston as being your ancestor. This Hugh also died in Scotland in 1867 and he has a death record confirming his parents as John Livington and Catharine McNiven and wife Mary McKinnon. I only found out the details of this Hugh Livingston by coincidence one of the ones you had mentioned in the past, last week, when I contacted this Hugh Livingstons descendants inquiring about details of his ancestral origins.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Achabeg, Morvern, Argyl and Ohio Livingston Connection

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:35 pm

Hi Kristen,

I noticed that you in an earlier message noted the one piece of evidence that exists of a member of Hugh and Euphemia's family a year after they left Morvern apparently located in Scioto County, Ohio. I had not seen that marriage record of their daughter Margaret and a cousin Hugh Burke on Aug. 31, 1852 until you pointed that out, so it was one more piece in this puzzle we have working on regarding your Livingston family that settled in Ohio in 1851 and the connection with the other Livingstons that preceded them in the late 1840's settling in Scioto County, Ohio with Angus Livingston, widow Catharine Livingston's son who preceded them all settling in America.

Regarding the Cameron connection to this Livingston family, as mentioned earlier the Morvern parish records suggest that the widow Catharine Livingston who died in 1855 and is buried at Wheelersburg Cemetery, Scioto County, Ohio according to her gravestone wife of Duncan Livingston, it is interesting that in that 1899 letter from Lochaline, Morvern that Stephen Livingston has, it should also be noted that the author of the letter talks about a Mrs McLean a resident of Lochaline, Morvern whom he mentions had a maiden name of Cameron. I believe the fact that he focused on Cameron because of his grandmother Catharine Livingston was a Cameron and thus he himself and his late father Angus Livingston had a Cameron family connection.

regards,

Donald
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