New member questions family search

[ybl]

Good Morning, I am Yvonne Livingstone, new member with a request for assistance with thoughts/specific information on my 3rd great grandfather.

I have over the years acquired copies of most birth, death and marriage certificates along with census information when available, using this along with family members to build our Livingstone tree. My parents and I immigrated to the US in 1957. So most of my Livingstone relatives have either stayed in Scotland and one uncle went to Canada with my parents but he stayed and we returned to Scotland.

I have started with my dad, George Livingstone, B: 1930 Glasgow, D: 2002 USA; then my grandfather, William Livingstone, B: 1887 Glasgow, D: 1961 Glasgow; my great-grandfather, John Livingstone, B: about 1851 Inverkeillor, D: 1922 Glasgow and his parents, specifically his father, Duncan Livingstone are giving me the questions. According to John's death certificate, his father was Duncan Livingstone and mother Margaret Ross.

I have by collecting census records for 1851 1861 & 1871 be able to ascertain that Duncan was born about 1820 in Fort William, Kilmallie area. Duncan died on 22 april 1887 in the poor house in St Vigeans, Angus Co. A house laborer signed his death certificate and his parents are listed as William Livingstone and Mary Cameron. I have searched for years for a Wm Livingstone and Mary Cameron from the Kilmallie area to no avail. But I did find an Angus Livingstone and Mary Cameron and five of their children from that area.

There was Donald Livingstone born 1812 ( the only one in which I have not been able to find other than a birth certificate); Catherine Livingstone, B: about 1817 Kilmallie, Died: 27 mar 1884 Balfron (single); Duncan Livingstone, B: 17 march 1815 Kilmallie, D: 22 April 1887 St Vigeans; John Livingstone, B: 18 Dec 1819, D: 29 May 1883 Balfron (died single) and Angus B: 2 Sept 1821 Kilmallie, Died: 21 Sept 1897 Glasgow........I have been able to locate Mary Cameron as perhaps born 7 June 1785 in Blaich, Argyll. Her death certificate is signed by son Angus. She died 22 Jul 1872 Balfron. She was a widow as of the 1851 census, living with Catherine, John and Angus before he married. Her death certificate lists Angus Livingstone as husband but no parents named, so I couldn't verify absolutely that she was born on the date with the parents listed on the certificate, as John Cameron and Mary McDonald.

In trying to work out if Duncan's parent is Angus Livingstone I have used some practices from that time period that seem common. Duncan Livingstone and Margaret Ross named their first child, Angus Livingstone, B: 1849 Old Machar and D: 1857 in Arbroath. The next son named John after Margaret's father John Ross. And the third child named Mary Cameron Livingstone after Duncan's mother. They then had seven more children all born in Angus Co. They had a second son named Angus born 7 August 1858.

The 1851 census reflects Mary born in Kilmallie and an ag laborer's widow, living with Catherine, john and Angus until her death.

If you would have any further information it would be greatly appreciated.

thank you and happy holidays,
Yvonne Livingstone

[Greg Livingston]

Good morning, Yvonne. Welcome to our forum and good luck with your research. I'm sure that Donald (Canadian Livingstone) will be responding soon. He, as well as most of us, has been busy with family during this holiday season but is very good on researching these questions.

Might I suggest having a male Livingstone relative join our DNA project? Since this is a y DNA project it is tracing the male line and requires a male Livingston(e). This might assist by pointing you to a family that someone has already done most of the research on. I joined recently and have discovered that we are related in some way to Dr. David Livingstone. I will be going through the research on his family to find where my 4th great grandfather would belong on that tree.

Once again, welcome to the Livingstone forum.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Yvonne,

Welcome to the Clan Maclea Livingstone Society Forum. I am currently preparing for some late Christmas celebrations that were postponed till New Years Day and also working on an article so I will have to get back to you next week regarding your research questions.

I don't know a lot about the Kilmallie Parish Livingstons but I do come across occasionally information regarding Livingstons of Kilmallie Parish origin from time to time with Forum related Livingston queries. As Kilmallie Parish records include Livingstons with connections to Argyllshire and neighbouring Inverness-shire it is of some particular interest to me. I would agree with your conclusion and apparently others of your Livingston ancestral group that Duncan Livington's father was quite likely Angus Livingston and his mother Mary Cameron. The death record of Duncan Livingston I believe should have indicated Angus Livingston and Mary Cameron as his parents. His eldest son born in 1849 was named Angus and his a daughter born in 1851 I think it was named Mary Cameron Livingstone. So I think you are on the right track here.

You probably already noticed this but the original baptism records for Angus Livingston and Mary Cameron's children Donald Livingston baptized 16/04/1812, your ancestor Duncan Livingston baptized 17/03/1815, John Livingston baptized 23/12/1819,
and Angus Livingston baptized 02/09/1821 indicated the settlement of Achintore in Kilmallie Parish, Inverness-shire near Fort William as the location where your ancestors Angus Livingston and Mary Cameron were residing at the time of the birth of all these children. I am including a link to a website with a detailed OS map showing Achintore's close proximity to Fort William. I noticed one of Duncan's later census records (1871) mentioned his birthplace as being in the Fort William, Inverness-shire area. So that further reinforces the notion I think that your ancestor is Duncan Livingston son of Angus Livingston and Mary Cameron who resided in the part of Kilmallie Parish near Fort William. As part of Kilmallie Parish was situated in Argyllshire and other in Inverness-shire in the 19th century, I do find it a bit confusing. Have you seen a photo of Duncan's tombstone? Does it include his age at the time of his death and his birthdate and is the age the same as the death record you have seen? I got the impression from a gravestone site that the stone included a birthdate but as no photo was included I could not be certain.

The other Kilmallie clue is as you mentioned Duncan's mother Mary is to found in Balfron in the 1851 Census as a widow with some of Duncan's siblings and most significantly her birthplace given as "Kilmallie" and her age at the time suggests she was born about 1786 or thereabouts. The Mary Cameron you mentioned that was born 07/06/1785 in Blaich according to the Kilmallie parish records could be your Mary Cameron as you say. Certainly the year of birth is about right with your Mary Livingston widow's age in the 1851 Census. There were some Livingston families that lived at Blaich in the early 1800's and likely before that I am aware of. Some ancestors of Livingstons who resided in Mull, Morvern and Ardnamurchan and Ballachulish seem to share some ancestral linkage according to familytreedna test results but no Livingstons whose ancestors resided in nearby Killmallie Parish in Argyll and Inverness-shire have done the familytreedna test to my knowledge, so it is still not known whether or not they were related to the Livingstons living in nearby parishes in Argyllshire. I am wondering if the Kilmallie Parish Livingstons are ancestrally connected to those of neighbouring Ardnamurchan and Balachulish and other nearby parishes in Argyll. As Greg Livingston mentioned our Clan Society is involved in genealogy based DNA project through familytreedna which has helped a significant number of Livingstons discover other Livingston families they are related to and get a better sense of their Livingston origins.

OS Map showing Duncan Livingston's birthplace of Achintore in Kilmallie Parish
https://www.ainmean-aite.scot/placename/achintore/ Achintore: (Achadh an Todhair in Scottish Gaelic)

All the best to you and your family during the Holiday season.

regards,

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Historian
Clan Maclea Livingstone Society

[ybl]

Thank you both for the reply. I think I will move forward comfortably with using Angus as my 3rd great grandfather until some fact indicates otherwise.

I will ask one of my brothers or a cousin if they would participate in the DNA testing using FamilytreeDNA.

Any suggestions for tracking information about Angus? Does it stand to reason that he would be from the same area,as Mary is from Blaich?

Again thank you for taking the time to answer and give me some idea of next steps.

Wishing you both a Good New Year.

Yvonne

[Greg Livingston]

I would suggest getting a brother and a cousin to do the DNA test. Each generation can/will have some type of mutation and the more tests for a particular know family line will give better results in finding more connections. Also, the higher level of test that is done the better the match will be. I have too many matches at the 12 marker level but it narrows down considerably with the higher levels.

You can also contact the correct people to get copies of birth certificates, death certificates, wedding licenses/records, and any other official documents you can find. Typically these will indicate parents, siblings, children, etc. which will prove/disprove any connections you might have as well as move you on to the next level.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Yvonne,

I could not find any further info regarding Angus Livingston and Mary Cameron except I found that that there was a daughter Kate born or baptized Nov. 1, 1807 also at Achintore, Kilmallie Parish, Argyll. The entry just very briefly states Kate Livingston dr. of Angus and ___ Cameron at Achintore Nov. 1 1807 so I think it is referring to a daughter of your ancestor Angus Livingston and Mary Cameron though the first name of the wife is missing. Could not locate a birth or baptism record for Angus Sr. I don't believe that Angus Livingston's father was Malcolm Livingston b. abt. 1750 and Catharine McPhee of Garvan, Inverness-shire near Argyllshire. Malcolm and his family ended up in Nova Scotia Canada in 1791, shortly after the birth of their last children in Garvan. One of the first highland Livingston colonists to settle in Nova Scotia.

Children of Angus Livingston and Mary Cameron of Achintore, Kilmallie Parish, Argyll
1. Kate (Catharine) Livingston b. Nov. 1, 1807 Achintore, Kilmallie parish, Argyll
2. Donald Livingston b. April 16, 1812 Achintore, Kilmallie Parish Argyll
3 Duncan Livingston b. March 17, 1815 Achintore, Kilmallie parish, Argyll
4. John Livingston b. Dec. 23, 1819 Achintore, Kilmallie Parish, Argyll
5. Angus Livingston b. Sept. 2, 1821 Achintore, Kilmallie Parish, Argyll

[ybl]

Hi Donald

thank you for confirming what I have. I agree with you that my Angus Livingstone ancestor isn't part of the group that went to Canada. I have what I believe are the death certificates and census records that reflect this part of my family stayed in Scotland. I have the census records for 1851, 1861, 1871, 1881 and for one of them 1891 for all of these folks and I am sure that this is my family.

Mary Cameron Livingstone I believe died in Balfron on 22 Jul 1872. A census of 1851 states that Mary Cameron Livingstone is an ag widow, so husband Angus Livingstone appears to have passed away prior to 1851. Her son Angus signed the death certificate.
Her son Duncan (my 2nd gr grandfather) died 22 April 1887 St Vigeans Poor House.
Catherine died 27 March 1884 Balfron, single and blind. Although I am not sure that this Kate is the same Kate you have found to be born in 1807. But if she is the death age listed is only off by ten years, so I might assume there are the same person.
John died 29 May 1883 Balfron, single.
Angus died 21 Sept 1897 in in Lanark but had lived his life it appears in Balfron with his wife Margaret McFarlane until she passed away in in 1894 in Balfron & his 7 children.
The only person I can't find any information on other than birth is the son Donald born in 1812. He and his father Angus, remain a mystery.

As you say, I also cannot find any information on Angus Livingstone, born 1780's, so maybe I won't be able to go any further with this branch of my family.

One of my brothers, George Hamilton Livingstone, Jr is taking the Y DNA test for you all, so maybe I can gather additional information when the results come back.

thank you for your time and effort.
Sincerely,
Yvonne

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Yvonne,

It is always a bit of hit and miss with the Argyll and neighbouring Inverness-shire Church of Scotland parish records. Some of birth/baptism and marriage entries go back to the late 1750's in some parishes while others like my Livingston ancestor's parish of Morvern in Argyllshire the entries do not survive before the year 1803 or 1804. The Kilmallie Parish parish records are said to go back to the 1770's and 1780's, but I could not find a birth or baptism record for Angus or a marriage record for Angus and Mary. I presume they married in the first decade of 1800 or thereabouts so there was a chance that their marriage entry existed in the Inverness or neighbouring Argyllshire Church of Scotland record but I could not find it. AND Without a birth or baptism record for Angus Livingston I have no way of knowing who his parents were. If he had died in scotland in 1855 or thereafter there would probably have been a registered death record which would list the name of the deceased parents, but it is clear he probably died years before that.

I am glad to hear that your brother is going to do the Y chromosome test. Clan Maclea Livingstone has been encouraging Livingston to do the Y Chromosome test with familytreedna for more than 10 years and it has been helpful in identifying in particular those Livingstons who share common ancestry with Livingstons connected ancestrally to Maclea Livingstons who originated in Western Argyllshire. Over the years some Western Argyllshire Livingstons migrated to neighbouring Inverness-shire and Perthshire. All the Perthshire Livingston tested so far matched with Livingston group with Western Argyllshire Livingston descendants and I think there is certain logic to the notion that most of the Livingstons whose ancestry is with Livingstons who lived in Inverness-shire near the Argyllshire border would be like a close match with those Livingstons whose ancestors lived in parishes in neighbouring Western Argyllshire in 18th and 19th centuries and well before that.

I would recommend the 37 or the 67 marker test with familytreedna for your brother which will help to identify which Livingston Dna group he is match with. Here is the familytreedna website with info at the bottom of the page regarding the 37, 67 or 111 marker test.

https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna#/compare

I live in Canada. The earliest Argyllshire Livingstons mostly from Mull some from neighbouring Morvern where my Livingstons came from, settled firstly in Canada in Nova Scotia or PEI. Cape Breton in Nova Scotia had a lot of Mull LIvingstons settle there. A significant number of Livingston descendants of Nova Scotia and PEI LIvingstons have been tested with the Y Chromosome test with familytreedna. There is has been no test so far of a descendant of Malcolm Livingston of Garvan Ardgour in the Argyll/Inverness border area whose family lived in the early 1800's in ANtigonish County area of Nova Scotia and was one of t he first Livingston families to settle in Nova Scotia in the year 1791. Given that your Livingston family will be shortly a part of the Clan Maclea Livingston DNA project I am hoping that in the near future that we can find a Livingston descendant of old Malcolm Livingston in Nova Scotia today whom can help continue to determine whether or not their branch of the Livingstons share a ancestral connection with other Livingstons that settled in Atlantic Canada and elsewhere in world. Geographically speaking this Livingston family of Malcolm Livingston and Christy McPhee would have been a Livingston family residing in Scotland the closest to your own Livingston family who also lived close to the INvernesshire and Argyllshire border. In the mean time, we have a good number of Livingstons whose ancestors settled in Canada, the United States, Australia or who remained in Scotland who have already done the familytreedna Y chromosome test in the last 10 year or more who may be a relatively close match with your brother. You have the advantage in the fact that those who did the test 10 years ago were a lot fewer in number than the group we have today so there are lots of Livingstons to possibly be a some sort of genetic match with. One of the first things I expect the test to answer is whether your Livingston family was related closely or more distantly with their Livingston neighbours in Western Argyllshire of which my Livingston ancestor was one.

regards,
Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Historian
Clan Maclea Livingstone Society

[ybl]

Hi Donald,

Thank you for the information you shared. The DNA y test should be at my brother's by Sat Jan 12. Do they forward the results directly to your project? Or
do we have to forward the test to you ourselves?

What are the next steps once the results are back?

Thank you
Yvonne

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Yvonne,

My own experience with familytreedna and their Y chromosome test was when I sponsored a third cousin a Livingston back in 2006 who lives in the States and I had familytreedna company sent the test kit to him a few weeks later with instructions including where to send the sample. After completing the test, the familytreedna information included will indicate where to send it either to familytreedna or to a lab they use. They probably include a pre addressed special protective envelope or small box to ship the sample. As a Livingston male shares with his father, grandfather etc. their Y Chromosomes then cousins, third cousins, 5th cousins etc should in theory in a Y chromosome test show up as having results which either show some evidence they are related either closely or more distantly but still related.

Last Christmas my wife and I decided to do a different type of DNA test offered by ancestry.com which focuses on giving you a percentage breakdown of your ethnic origins. We were wondering if there was any truth to family rumours of both our famiies that we might have some native American ancestry with Iroquois in my case and Hurons in my wife's family. The test surprisingly proved that was not the case for either of us. My wife is half scottish and half french-Canadian and her test results basically agreed with that. I am mostly Scottish a mixture of highland and lowland Scottish families connected to my father who is part Scottish and mother whose is of scottish ancestry, with some Yorkshire English and about 25 percent Western European primarily 17th and 18th century colonial American German with some Dutch and Swedish. I turned out to be almost 40 per cent Irish due to my Western Scottish roots where Irish settled in ancient times, about 35 per cent general British whatever that is and am about 25 per cent Western European. Both kinds of tests Ive mentioned are useful but for identifying and matching up other Livingstons out there as whether they are related in some way with your Livingston family and share some ancestral connection in Scotland with them there is no better test to start with than the Y chromosome test either the 37 marker test or even better the 67 marker test Y Chromosome test offered by familytreedna.

My Father's family with roots in early colonial roots Rhode Island, Connecticut and New York State, left the United states a few decades after the end of the American Revolution , settling in the early 1800's in Upper Canada where we had relatives and where the British were granting generous free land grants of 100 or 200 acres to former American colonists. Some of my ancestors had lived in the America prior to that since the 1630's so I have an ancestral connection and with Roger Williams the founder of the Rhode Island colony in the 1600's who is, according to a family tree I was sent, my eighth great-grandfather or something like that. (Only famous person I have found from my genealogy I am related to.) I once worked with a lady who claimed to be related to a wife of Henry the 8th but I am not sure how she was able to prove that.

The eldest son of my ancestor from New York State who first settled in Canada in 1811 married the eldest daughter of a highland Argyllshire Livingston in the 1830's and that is how our family first became connected with this Scottish family. I have a number of other Scottish ancestors through other family connections and mother is of an old lowland Scottish family. My great-great great grandfather Miles Livingston was a boatbuilder born in Morvern Parish, Argyll who was working on Isle of Argyll in Southern Argyllshire when he was recruited by a highland agent Lord Selkirk in 1812 for one of Selkirk's colonies in British North America with another Morvern native, a cousin whose family had been also living and working on the Isle of Islay.

regards,

Donald