Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ontario

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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:29 pm

Hi David,

Wow lots to look over. You have been working hard on this I can see, since we last were in contact. What progress you have made. And yikes that was a tough one. One piece at a time until you got it. I can't get precise idea of Alexander's birthdate in Scotland from the census records. Somewhere between 1803 and 1810 looks like, possibly in Mull, Argyll looks like now. Perhaps he had a brother named Angus.
Sure sounds like the right family. Alexander and Catharine Livingston. All children mentioned in that list in the book except a daughter Flora and a son Donald that I noticed. But quite easy when it is second hand info published in that book for the author to have missed a few children of Alexander and Catharine's from a large family like they had. All the rest in the book list seem to match the names in the 1851 and 1861 Census records in Quebec. Great that found what looks like a connection between that Angus and your Alexander.
That Mull information I think is new to me and not surprising as the vast majority of highland Livingstons whom who have contacted the forum whose ancestors settled in Canada seem to be connected to Livingston families from Mull or neighbouring Morvern, where my Livingston ancestors came from. In terms of the DNA project, although I am the Clan Historian, I have encouraged quite a significant number of persons of Livingston ancestry to participate in the DNA project having established a good deal of familiarity with the history of Livingstons the Mull and surrounding Western Argyll area of Scotland and familiarity with the DNA results with particularly with Western Argyllshire LIvingstons.

If your original source is correct then it is quite possible that the elder Archibald and his son Alexander born in the early 1800's have family origins apparently in Mull. And with those Quebec neighbours being McLeans and McPhees they are quite common to 18th and 19th century Mull and rest Cameron and McGillverary common to neighbouring Morvern and probably Mull. McVicar throughout Argyll some in Southern Argyllshire. So Archibald's neighbours very likely from Western Argyllshire I would assume. Like I say it seems quite often the Canadian Livingstons I worked with on the forum over the years have had an Mull Argyll Livingston ancestry. The 37 marker test is a good starting point or I would suggest the 67 marker test just to get a good sense of your closest match results with other LIvingstons in the DNA project who have done the 67 marker test which most Livingston of Mull ancestry have. Most of Livingstons of Mull ancestral origin and other parts of Western Argyll have done the 67 marker test and you can always upgrade to the 111 marker test later on for more precise matching of your results with other Livingstons whom you are determined to be a match with at 67 markers tested. So yes if you have info that your family originated in Mull then I really think the Y Chromosome Test offered by familytreedna for 67 markers is the way to go. While some Livingstons of Mull ancestry are not certain where their ancestors lived at Mull, others do have some info and I have started to try an actually draw a rough map of where some of their ancestors and other Livingston families lived at Mull in the 1700's and early 1800's. We have made a lot of progress with our Mull Livingston family research and the DNA project via familytreedna has proven to be a major help in learning just how closely related these Mull and Morvern Livingstons and Livingstons from other parishes in Western Argyll are to one another. There is one other Livingston DNA match group who have a Mull, Argyll connection who have also done the familytreedna test, so it is possible you could be a match with them as well. With either group if you are of Mull ancestry or of some there Argyllshire ancestry which you seem to be from what you told me about the Mull info and the fact that your ancestors neighbours are almost certainly of Argyllshire origin one way or another there is very good chance of a match with others in one of these Livingston DNA groups.

Here is some information from familytreedna regarding their Y Chromosome test options and the cost:

https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna

Again nice work Dave finding that apparent lead on likely Mull ancestry of Archibald Sr. and his son Alexander and his son Archibald. Lucky break for you that your Livingstone family in Quebec was mentioned and that you happened to stumble across that old book. Your are the only Livingston who settled originally in Quebec that has contacted the forum. We've had lots from Nova Scotia origin, some of PEI origin, some of Ontario origin and some of Manitoba origin. Your the first with a Quebec connection, although your Livngstons later ended up in Ontario.

Over the years having done my own Livingstone family research and that of other familes I am related to I am sometimes amazed at what rare documents. old family photos are sometimes discovered. I am just sorry to say that less than two years after Father passed away a distant cousin put an old civil war era documented photo of my Great-great-great grandfather that had been in this old distant cousin's familes possessions for about 150 years. I knew of this cousin from another cousin I was working with on family history about 20 years ago, but had no idea that this other family knew about this picture and had it for years but kept in an unopened shoebox for years. Anyways I was so scared I would spill coffee on it after it arrived in the mail I placed the old 1860's carte de visite photo of my elderly ancestor who was born in the 1780's and died in 1871 safely in an airtight glass frame. I don't have a photo of my Livingstone great-great-great grandfather unfortunately but I do have a photo that was given me of his youngest son and his eldest daughter who was my ancestor. Many other rare old photographs, books maps, documents have come my way or I have found them over the years doing family research. Genealogy is not as interesting as archaeology to be sure, but occasionally you do find some lost family treasure.

regards,

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Clan Historian
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2528
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:45 pm

Hi David,
Yes contacting the folks with the Scotch Road Cemetery Association was a good idea. Alexander Livingstons neighbours were natives of Scotland like him, farmers and land owners in the area since the 1830's.

According to the Canada East (Quebec) 1851 Census Alexander Livington b. abt. 1803 in Scotland possibly in Mull, Argyll and his wife Catharine and family resided on a 100 acre lot at Concession 7 Lot 7 in the Scotch Road area in Grenville Township, Argentieul County, Quebec. His closest neighbour also on Con. 7-7 100 acres was Donald McArthur age 50 widower born in Scotland. Another neighbour was Alexander McPhee age 45 born Scotland and his wife Ann situated at concession. 8 lot 7. Samuel Campbell age 35 also born in Scotland and his wife Margaret were located at Concession 8 Lot 8. There is also information in the Agricultural info of the 1851 Census of Grenville Township that a Malcolm McPhee is located on 100 acres at Con. 7 Lot 7. Angus Livingston born abt. 1797 in Scotland widower is located at Concession 5 Lot 8 on 100 acres near Neil McGillverary who is located on Con. 6 Lot 7 on 200 aces.


I don't think we discussed Archibald's baptism record information in the past. I just noticed it today. By now you probably have as well. You have found I know just about every bit of info regarding Archibald that survives no doubt the genealogy sleuth that you are.
Interestingly the 1851 Quebec Census and the 1871 Ontario Census indicate that Archibald Livingston son of Alexander Livingston and Catharine McDonald of Grenville Township, Argenteuil County, Quebec was born abt. 1836. This conflicts of course with his other census info and his death info. But is it interesting to note that his 1836 Church of Scotland baptismal record from Grenville, Quebec states that he was born in 1836:

Church of Scotland St. Phillippe d'Argenteuil

Archibald lawful son of Alexander Livingstone and Catharine McDonald born on the first day of April in the year of our lord one thousand eight hundred and thirty six was baptized by me at Grenville on this the third day of August in the same year.

William Maur Minister of Grenville and Chatham

Witness: Christian McGregor


regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2528
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby david.livingstone » Fri May 04, 2018 3:43 am

Hi Donald, I received an email notification regarding a post back on Apr 30. I read it briefly but didn't have an opportunity to respond, and now that I look at the thread it's gone! From what i recall you indicated there were Livingstones in Wyoming, Ontario? I'd like to dig into that a bit deeper and see if I can perhaps find a connection to the Livingstone family in Quebec.
david.livingstone
 
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri May 04, 2018 1:26 pm

Hi David,

Yes I am afraid I started to edit my post and then deleted it because I was concerned it would create a certain amount of confusion regarding the three Lambton County Livingston family groups from Morvern, Appin and Lismore who by some interesting coincidence all settled in Lambton County in Bosanquet, Plympton and Sarnia Township in Lambton County. I am going to post my earlier research on these families and possibly do an article on them in the future. My own Livingstons of Morvern, Argyll ancestry and related Clink family settled in Bosanquet Township, some Appin, Argyll Livingston familes settled in Plympton County and the youngest son of Baron Coll Livingstone of Bachuil Lismore, Argyll settled in Sarnia Township. All of these families did not know each other apparently in Argyllshire but by some interesting coincidence settled in Lambton County in the 1850's or 1860's. I had done extensive Lambton County research on all of these different families and went through it the other day and could no evidence of an obvious connection with your family and so far no evidence of Archibald briefly living in Wyoming Ontario which is around the Plympton Township area in Lambton County in the 1880's or 1890's. That book that you quoted with mention of Archibald residing in Wyoming was published I think in the 1890's if I am correct, but I have checked the 1861, 1871, 1881 and 1891 Ontario Census info and there is not information suggesting he ever lived in Wyoming Ontario, or anywhere near Lambton County in those years. I am not ruling out the possibility that Archie could be a distant relative of one of these Livingston families and as I mentioned the familytreedna Y Chromosome would likely indicate which Argyll Livingstone family group your Grenville, Quebec/Lobo Township, Ontario Livingston family group is most closely related to. That being said it was a good guess on my part that the author might have been referring to Archibald perhaps briefly residing in Wyoming, Ontario rather than Wyoming, U.S.A. and I suspect most people in Ontario are not aware of a village in Ontario named Wyoming. I must admit I was not.

But Wyoming in the Plympton Township, Lambton County area is a considerable distance in Ontario from where we know from the Ontario Census Archibald and his family were residing in the second half of the 1800's, so there is I assume something not quite right regarding this author's statement that your ancestor Archibald lived in Wyoming either in the village of the Wyoming, Ontario or Wyoming in the USA. Here in summary is what the Ontario Census is telling us about the whereabouts of Archie in second half of the 1800's:
Archibald Livingston's whereabouts in Ontario based on Ontario Census records from 1861 to 1901
1861 Innisfil Township, Simcoe County, Ontario

1871 Innisfil Township, Simcoe County, Ontario

1881 Innisfil Township, Simcoe County, Ontario

1891 Lobo Township, Simcoe County, Ontario

1901 ? Archie seems to be missing in 1901 Census and not listed at his residence in Lobo Township, Middlesex County. Wonder what happened to him? Found wife Susana residing in 1901 according to census at residence of son Thomas A. Livingston b. May 8, 1856, His mother Susana according to same census was born Feb. 14, 1838 in Canada of Scotch ancestry. Where is Archibald? This could be why some people thought Archie died about 1901. The death record stated 1907 didn't it?


Died April 1st 1907 Lobo Township, Simcoe County, Ontario Can we confirm and verify that this death record is accurate and that he died in Lobo Township, Simcoe County? I forget now did you locate a tombstone in Lobo Township? Odd that he is absent from his residence in Lobo Township when the 1901 Census was taken.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby david.livingstone » Fri May 04, 2018 3:03 pm

Ok, thought I was going crazy as it was late at night when I quickly read the post!

In 1901 Archibald was living with his son Archibald N.

Archibald Sr. month and day of birth are listed as 'unknown' but year is 1835. They are family 11:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/19 ... id=2656289

I've always wondered why he and his wife Susannah were not listed in the same house.
david.livingstone
 
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:19 pm

Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri May 04, 2018 3:30 pm

Hi David,

Well I thought for a moment that I could connect your Archibald with Wyoming, Ontario but I had not looked at our old discussions on Archibald in the past and once refreshing my memory regarding Archibald's census locations I realized that I would lead you or should I say mislead you probably on a wild goose chase searching for a connection to Wyoming Ontario that which does not seem to exist at least for Archibald.

Interestingly one Livingston family who lived in Plympton Township has a Livingston descendant who who did the familytree DNA test several years ago. He was descended from Angus Livingston of Port Appin, Argyll so an Appin, Argyll Livingston family. So if you do eventually decide to go with the familytreedna test I mentioned then it may help to indicate if your Livingstons might have been related to Angus and other LIvingstons of his family that lived in Plympton Township, Lambton County, Ontario or to my Livingstons who are a known be connected to Livingston family that lived in Morvern and neighbouring Mull. The information you found suggests the possibility of a Mull Livingston connection in your family in which case there is very good chance you share a common Livingston ancestor with my Livingston family but I learned with working with descendants of Argyllshire LIvingstons that if there means of proof then there is only speculation to rely on.

I understand the this village of Wyoming is in the Plympton Township area. I think in more recent years the community of Wyoming and Plympton Township amalgamated or something like that. Coincidentally, I had done some research on the three groups of Livingstons originating from MOrvern, Appin an Lismore who settled in Plympton, Sarnia and Bosanquet Townships Lambton County, Ontario in the 1850's including my own Livingston relatives. So oddly enough this Wyoming thing had got back into doing the finishing touches of a rough draft on them and perhaps a future article on this interesting group of Appin, Lismore and MOrvern Western Argyllshire who by odd coincidence ended up in Lambton County, Ontario. I assume the likely did not know each other. The Appin and Lismore ones, DNA testing has proven were distant cousins and not related by blood to the my Livingston relatives of Morvern Argyll ancestry who settled nearby to them in Bosanquet Township, Lambton County, Ontario.

It has now been more than 10 years that I have been studying highland Argyllshire Livingston settlement in Canada and the United States in the 1700's and 1800's and there have been a great many Livingstons who have contacted the forum or me personally and I have learned a great deal from them and each has I found an interesting story to tell as is the story of your Livingston family in Quebec and Ontario. Some have found more information than others on their family history. Some have information about their ancestors back in Scotland and others have no information regarding their family prior to their arrival in the United States or Canada.

What is a great about this forum is that once a Livingston posts his or her information on their family then it is quite possible that we can help them find more info and once all this information appears in the posts it is quite conceivable that some distant Livingston relative with information or looking for information on their Livingston ancestors will see a Livingston post pertaining to their Livingston family and try to make contact. This has happened from time to time here at the forum. This forum is all about sharing genealogy information and for me everyone's contribution has given me in the end I think an pretty good understanding of the various origins and places of settlement of the Livingston ancestors of many people of Livingston descent who have visited this Forum since 2004.

I did not know much about Argyllshire Livingstons who settled in Quebec except my Livingston ancestor's son from his first marriage who became a surveyor in the early 1800's in Beauharnois, Quebec and died in Quebec in 1862. He did not marry and had no family so there was no Quebec descendants regrettably to search for. My Livingston ancestor tried to get him to farm with him in Ontario in the early 1800's but the son from the first marriage apparently was not happy with his father for remarrying and while I found a legal document exists in the Quebec records between my ancestor his father from Ontario and him that I have not had to chance to look at, from the 1830's, the son from the first marriage seemed quite happy to remain in Quebec where he did quite well as a land surveyor.

I noticed a number of LIvingstons lived in Quebec in the early 1800's some of them likely of the Argyllshire variety including your family. Probably not a big number but there were some for sure. You are as I was mentioning the only Livingston so far of Quebec origins that has contacted this forum.

I know you mentioned recently you were considering the DNA test as a viable option. A number of our own Maclea- Livingtons in our Clan Society have done this test including our own Clan Chief and our North American Clan Commissioner and Chieftain and my Livingston cousin and many other LIvingstones/Livingston from around the world. If you like I can get you any information you need about our Clan DNA project and familytreedna who are a reliable company responsible for the testing and we could discuss any questions you have about the test and see if there is test option that could possibly work for you as there a number of different Y Chromosome Test options with familytreedna with 12, 25 37 or 67 or 111 markers tested. The 12 marker test is the lowest cost option and is good starting point and one can always upgrade later to the other comprehensive tests. Familytreedna sends you kit with instructions, you or one of your Livington relatives does the test, mails the sample back to familytreedna and bingo in several weeks you can see the closest Livingston matches on the familytreedna matches page. I have worked over the last 10 years with a number of Livingstons of Mull Argyll ancestry and neighbouring Morvern Parish where my Great-great-great Grandfather Livingston originally from. We also have a Mull Livingston expert who still resides in Scotland who has contributed much information regarding Mull Livingstons to this forum over the years. The ancient ways of the highland Clans may be gone in most respects and perhaps to some all we have left is a romantic's nostalgia for a past that is no more, but I like to think that here at Forum that Livingstones/Livingstones whatever their origins are one big family like in the Argyllshire days of old.


regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2528
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

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