Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ontario

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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:09 am

Hi David,

That is exciting news. In a month or more you should likely be contacted with the results.

See my earlier message from July of 2011 which I think helps to verify what the historian said in 1896 about your ancestor Archibald Livington serving with the Royal Corps.
I am sorry I forgot in the past we did find out quite a bit about the Royal Corps and it seem though they were formed during the Napoleonic War some of them evidently did come to Canada. I am not aware of the details of this but looking back at posting to you some years back there is info regarding the Royal Corps in Quebec apparently they I had forgotten about and perhaps needs some further research because as you can see there definitely seems to have been a historic connection between Grenville and some other neighbouring places in Quebec and this Royal Corps worth further research and exploration. Check this old post from me to you.

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:02 am

Hi David,

]If by some miracle I turn out to beright then your ancestor Archibald Livingston's grandfather Archibald Livingston of the Royal Staff Corps is likely connected to the Royal Staff Corps which were formed in the early 1800's during the Napoleonic Wars. The Royal Staff Corps were involved with the defence of South eastern England in the 1804 1805 period to prevent invasion by the French. They also I think were later involved in the Peninsula War. By the 1820's I think they were in British North America in Lower Canada. What is interesting is that the ROyal Staff corps built the Lachine Canal and Grenville Canal. They also had some involvement I think in the construction of St. Mathews Anglican Church in Grenville in 1832. Perhaps Archibald's grandfather was still in the Royal Staff Corps at this time in Grenville,Argenteiul Quebec. I would think by the 1830's Archibald would be getting old and would be long since retired from the Military but he definitely was likely serving with during the Napoleonic War and perhaps for a time in Quebec. I found out there were definitely Scots serving in the Royal Staff Corps. It not all clear to me yet but I think the Royal Staff Corps served as army engineers. Two companies of the Royal Staff Corps were sent under the command of a Henry Du Vernet in 1819 with the purpose of constructing canal along the Ottawa River one of which was the Grenville Canal. I suspect from what you found out that Archibald's grandfather was one of them that came out in 1819. There appears to be some detailed info out there on this Henry DuVernet. Makes sense that Archibald the eldest son was named after his grandfather.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:36 am

Hi David,

As an update to the 2011 post and to the 1896 history which suggests that your ancestor Archibald Livingston was apparently one of the 100 soldiers that came over from Britain with the Royal Staff Corps which apparently arrived in early 1800's and built the Carillon and Grenville Canals. Here is more detailed info regarding that British A Corps and their work on these canals in Quebec.

http://www.thefullwiki.org/Grenville,_Quebec

http://www.thefullwiki.org/Carillon_Canal


http://grenville.ca/la-ville/canal/

regards,

Donald
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby david.livingstone » Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:37 am

Interesting: In your post from Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:02am:
... They also had some involvement I think in the construction of St. Mathews Anglican Church in Grenville in 1832. Perhaps Archibald's grandfather was still in the Royal Staff Corps at this time in Grenville,Argenteiul Quebec ...


I stumbled on this tonight: https://www.ancestry.ie/boards/localiti ... .1/mb.ashx
There are a few RSC members mentioned in the St. Matthew's Anglican Church Cemetery transcription, published by the Ottawa Branch of the Ontario Genealogical Society.

The short section on the Royal Staff Corps says "Members of the Royal Staff Corps who remained in Grenville after the construction of the Grenville-Carillon Canal and were buried in this cemetery: Thos. Collins #52 (stone #), John Lockley #68, Thomas Taylor #28 Other members of the Royal Staff Corps who remained in Genville and who have descendants buried in this cemetery: Nathaniel Boyd, Thomas Foreman, Joseph Hambly, George Hopper, Andrew Kerr, Archibald Livingstone, David Reeves." The endnotes say that George Hopper, from Ireland, is buried beneath St. Matthew's Church. Actually, I think the church is gone, now.
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:46 pm

Hi David,

Apparently the Royal Staff Corps involved with the canal, wintered in the Montreal area because of the weather and then in the Spring to continue construction. Evidently it took them a long time to complete the Grenville Canal. Years if I understood correctly. The point is I looked for an Archibald Livingston between 1819 and 1830 in the early records and found one in the St. Laurent suburb of Montreal with what looks like a wife and 2 boys and 2 girls in the 1825 Lower Canada (Quebec) Census. This could also be a Archibald Livingston who later resided in Beauharnois County. So probably there were only two Archibald Livingtons in Quebec in the 1819 to 1830 period I just don't for sure which one is the one in the 1825 Census.

One other thing. There were two main groups involved with the Grenville canal that may have been Scottish. You have Royal Staff Corps and also the stone masons some them of Mull, Argyll origins and whatever other workers are employed to work with the Royal Staff corps on this project. All the info we have seen so far seems to indicate that your ancestor Archibald Livingston was in the Royal Staff Corps and not one of the stone workers working on the Grenville Canal. There was a gentleman named Patrick Mason who ancestor served with the Royal Staff Corps who did a lot research on his ancestor and the Grenville Canal project and located whatever information has survived.

I see the Robert Legget book on the Ottawa River Canals published in 1988 is still available in used copies. The 1979 Ontario Genealogical Society Publicaton that has St. Matthews Church, Grenville Quebec cemetery info you mentioned may be out of print but the O GS library probably has a copy. I have not found a used copy as yet.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:36 pm

Hi David,

Interestingly enough there was briefly a third Livingston residing in Grenville Township. Hugh Livingston b. abt. 1815 or 1816 in Scotland married Catharine McVicar b. abt. 1814 daughter of Grenville Township settler Hugh McVicar on Nov 11, 1845 and were married by William Maur minister of Grenville and Chatham. He and Catharine appear in the 1851/52 Census in Grenville Township. At that time Hugh Livingston and family was located at Con. 5 Lot 14 100 acre farm. Hugh Livingston died sometime between 1851 and 1861. Catharine McVicar Livingston died Feb. 21, 1883 age 68. Her Father Hugh McVicar was born 1778 died April 23, 1857 and mother was Agnes Ann Campbell b. 1787 d. Dec. 20, 1869 and they are all buried in the Scotch Road Cemetery in Grenville Township. No information on whether Hugh was a young son of Archibald so can't say who his father or mother was. He was born in Scotland.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby david.livingstone » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:49 am

Hi Donald, trust you are well. I was off on vacation and then back to work and very busy over the past weeks.

Still anxiously waiting on my DNA results from familytreedna.com - expected 10/17 - 10/31.

In the meantime, I came across something curious and wanted to share, as it is likely a piece in this overall puzzle:

On Thursday afternoon I came into possession of a box full of old paperwork, postcards, letters, newspaper clippings, and photographs that were removed from the farmhouse where my grandfather grew up in Komoka, Ont. It's my first time seeing any of it, and as there are a couple hundred letters and postcards it's going to take some time for me to go through everything. Fortunately for me, my great grandmother kept a lot of her mail, even placing the opened letters back in the envelopes, so I'm able to see the postmarks and know when the letters were sent/received.

In one of the envelopes, addressed to my great grandmother in 1936, there were 2 funeral announcement cards - one for Janet Agnes Livingston and the other for Andrew Alexander Livingston, both died in Listowel, Ontario and buried in the Fairview Cemetery. Unfortunately, there was no accompanying letter, just the 2 cards.

But in addition to this, so far, I've found 2 Christmas cards addressed to my great grandmother both from 1942 with Listowel postmarks - one from Mary Helmka and the other from Jeena Livingston. There are almost 100 postcards I've not yet gone through so hopefully something else pops up. It appears my great grandmother was attached to these letters, etc and they were never discarded, and I can't even begin to tell you how much it's meant to me that I can look through them - gleaning details from their everyday life.

It's becoming clear that, if not related, this Listowel Livingston family was at least very well known to mine.

My brief research on ancestry.com so far tells me that Janet and Andrew were siblings, children of Alexander Livingstone and Jannett Jane Davidson. In 1861 Alexander, wife and 3 children were living in Sunnidale, Simcoe County Ontario, and Alexander was born in Quebec in 1824. By 1871 the family was in Wallace, Perth County, Ontario (which is right outside Listowel). The Quebec and Simcoe County facts caught my eye, as my Archibald was born in Quebec and lived in Simcoe County.

I did a quick search on the forum and can see that you've researched some Livingston families in the Lisowel area. Not sure if this family has come up in your prior research, but it's a very unexpected development for me...

I'm somewhat embarrassed in my earlier theory, based on some less-than-perfect ancestry.com DNA 'evidence', and after doing some further reading on how ancestry reports relationships in the DNA, it's been a sobering experience to say the least. Scrolling through what the '3rd cousin' relationship could possibly mean, I now realize just how vague it really is. There's certainly a relationship there, but how close is really up for interpretation. My excitement over a 'match' got the better of me! Here's to hoping the Y-DNA test from familytreedna.com can add value to all this!
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:24 am

Hi David,

Wow. Always exciting when one finds some old family documents photos and letters of some ancestral significance. Happened to me a few times. Nice when it does. Made contact with distant relative a few years ago regarding an civil war era photo of my elderly Great-great-great grandfather born in the 1780's and he surprisingly sent it to me in the mail. When I got it and put in an air tight small glass frame as it was the size of a playing card. They were called carte de visite introduced after earlier glass and tin type photographs. I was so afraid if I kept it out unprotected I would spill coffee on it or something stupid like that. I have had lot of luck in that a lot relatives of mine kept a lot of the old photographs, but I am sure many more of the really old photos were lost and discarded over the years sadly.

I think that these cards connecting your great grandfather to Alexander Livingston b. 1824 of Quebec and Sunidale, SIMcoe County and later Perth County is interesting. It is true I have had contact with two other Livingston families that are the earliest Livingstons of Perth County that I know of. Both families lived in LIstowel and both had a John Livingstone which often confused people. I have been in touch for more than a decade with a descendant of one John Livingstone a brother of Dr. David Livingstone and more recently with a descendant of the other LIstowel Livingston family connected to a Livingston family in Ontario who became quite successful in the Linseed oil business in the 1800's. There likely is however no family connection with the Alexander's family that I am aware of with these two old Listowel Livingston families of Perthshire. But Clearly Alexander and his family may quite possibly be related to you. Certainly it is unlikely that your great grandfather would not have been sent all these cards connected to Alexander and his family if there was no connection back long ago in Quebec between your and their Quebec Livingston familes.

Have you thought about contacting some their descendants via ancestry.com? They might know something about Alexander's origins in Quebec. One thought I have is that maybe Alexander of Quebec born in 1824 or 1823 there could be a nephew of your ancestor Alexander Livingston b. 1803 if he not an unknown older son. So my best guess would be that Alexander Livingston b. abt. 1824 or 1823 is at his closest possible family connection either a nephew of your ancestor Alexander Livingston of Grenville Quebec or perhaps less likely but possibly Alexander had an older son named Alexander born in 1824 or 1823. The cards suggest this other younger Alexander might have been a close relative of your oldest known ancestor Alexander Livingston born abt. 1803 of Grenville, Quebec.

Yes I would think that you will see your results by sometime in October.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:03 pm

HI David,

My best guess would be that Alexander Livingston b. in Quebec in 1824 is likely a nephew of Alexander Livingston and his wife Catharine McDonald your ancestors and therefore a first cousin of their son Archibald also your ancestor. So this Alexander b. in 1824 would be a son of one of Alexander's brothers. Perhaps a son of his brother Angus born in the 1790's or another brother who lived in Quebec in the early 1800's we dont know about. I this is a pretty good guess. Clearly your family was closely related to this Alexander born in 1824 and apparently are touch with some of his children when they lived in Perth County. Oddly I can too much census info and other for Andrew and his brother John Neil in Perth County.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby david.livingstone » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:51 am

Hi Donald -

I kept meaning to reply, but it's been an exciting time going through the contents of this box - there are 188 postcards and almost as many letters, and a couple dozen photographs, some from the mid 1800s. It's one thing to see historical records detailing where your ancestors lived, from census and land records, birth registrations, etc. but quite another thing altogether to read the correspondence between them, seeing how they interacted with each other, celebrated birthdays, Christmas, etc. One postcard is addressed to my great grandmother, and 'Annie' from Listowel is detailing how her and her sister in law are planning a big excursion to Detroit, staying in Port Huron, and that my great grandmother "better come!". Another details taking the "9-2" from Listowel to London and arriving at "the station" around noon, and where to meet... And several are from "Polly" with a postmark in Listowel but I can't find a "Polly" anywhere in the tree, which leads me to believe it was a nickname. There are even property tax receipts, newspaper clippings, bank books, and even receipts from the early 1900's for payment of burial plots. The oldest letter I've found is from 1885 and is a love letter to my great-great grandmother's brother from an unidentified woman. The oldest photograph is from the 1850s and depicts my great-great grandmother's brother - it's case and frame is almost identical to this: https://www.truevintageantiques.com/pro ... ancestors/ It appears my great-grandmother was somewhat of a pack-rat when it came to correspondence, and I'm so glad she was!

I'd assumed that my great grandfather, John Henderson Livingstone, had lost contact with his older sister and younger brother, because they ended up living so far apart (his sister in Uxbridge Ontario and brother in Saskatchewan). I naively assumed that the distance meant there would be no further contact, but the letters and photographs proved otherwise, and showed that, despite the distance, they kept in regular contact throughout the years, sending letters about events in their lives, and photographs of their children to each other! I recall your story about the photograph from a relative and remember hoping that one day I'd find something similar in my journey, so I can now fully appreciate what that must have meant to you. Despite my great grandfather's untimely death in 1918 due to Spanish Influenza, the Livingstone relatives kept in constant contact with my great grandmother, even after she eventually remarried.

One of the postcards is from an 'Alex Livingston', addressed to my great grandmother, and he starts the letter with "Dear Cousin". Others also refer to her as cousin, so the connection between them is certain. Unfortunately there are no clues as to the possible Quebec connection, but I've only seen a fraction of it and can't wait to see what else is there.

I'm still trying to make sense of this Listowel family connection, their obvious ties through correspondence and regular in-person visits, and my DNA match on ancestry.ca to a Sarah Livingstone from Quebec, with the Banks family (from Terrbonne) living literally next-door to my great-great grandfather Archibald Livingstone and his wife Susannah Doig. It can't all be coincidence, although I've come to appreciate how inaccurate ancestry.ca DNA hits can be and am now very cautious. As you mentioned an Archibald Livingstone from Terrbonne Quebec ended up in Kingston - I'm going to further research that so I can more clearly understand where that Archibald ended up. When I saw 'Neil' as a middle name for John Neil Livingstone (born 1857) it caught my attention because of Neil Livingstone, father of Sarah Livingstone (my DNA hit) and an Archibald Livingstone in Terrbonne county, Quebec, with the Banks family also, and then the Banks family in Innisfil next-door to Archibald. There are just so many connections here that I can't ignore them.

After spending a couple of days building up the Listowel Livingstone family tree on ancestry.ca, I reached out to someone who attached a photograph of one of the individuals. Her daughter-in-law has information about the family, and I've been in contact but a response will be delayed for a couple of weeks due to visiting relatives on her part. They seem eager to exchange information, and the postcards and letters I provided them certainly proved the connection - they were intrigued, so hopefully something will come of that connection. One of the photographs in the box has an imprint showing Listowel, Ontario and depicts 3 small children, obviously siblings, so hopefully the recognize them. I continue to refine that tree in an attempt to find someone to reach out to for possible information.

If you recall the Scotch Road Cemetery Association - they are holding their 46th annual meeting Sunday October 14 at 1:30pm in Calumet, QC. As of now I'm planning on being there, as I have to take my daughter to Peterborough, Ontario on the 13th and that puts me roughly half way there from Windsor, Ontario where I live, so I'm thinking it makes sense. I'm hoping to connect with those folks as their knowledge of the area will be invaluable in future Quebec investigations and understanding of the area. In the past I've corresponded with Cecil McPhee, who has been very knowledgeable of the history of Grenville, etc. I believe it was his ancestors that donated the land for the Scotch Road Cemetery and who is currently president of the Scotch Road Cemetery Association (SRCA). In the same thread I corresponded with Gordon Rainey (treasurer SRCA) and David Cameron (secretary SRCA). If you are interested in attending let me know and I'll send you the particulars. Not sure where you are located, but if you want to car-pool let me know - I'll meet you in Peterborough ;-)

I obtained a copy of "Ottawa River Canals" by Robert Legget - he clearly put a lot of time and effort into the book. A lot of what I've been reading I recall from reading the digitized microfilm of communications from DuVernet, but unfortunately I found no mention of an Archibald Livingstone. I have a few unspoken-for vacation days and would absolutely use them travelling to gather additional records/information/etc. I'd just need direction on where/how to get it.

As I was drafting this response, I checked FamilyTreeDNA.com and my Y-DNA results are now in! I'm exhausted and will have to look into this further in the morning, but here's hoping that assists in this investigation.
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:27 am

Hi David,

Angus b. 1797 presuming brother of Alexander had 5 members of his family in the 1842 Quebec Census and in 1851 in Middlesex County Ontario his wife is deceased and there is just himself and three children. So It looks like we can rule out the brother Angus b. 1797 in Quebec, as being the father of his mysterious Alexander born in 1824 in Quebec. So my hunch is there was likely a third brother and third son of old Archibald Livingston the former soldier of early pioneer of Grenville Quebec. I could be wrong of course.
Great that the results are in.
regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
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