William Livingstone

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RLivingstone
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:16 pm
Location: Montana, USA

Re: William Livingstone

Post by RLivingstone »

Appreciate your thoughts. 🙂
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2743
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: William Livingstone

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi R Livingstone,
Took a look at all our earlier discussions and realized the source of some confusion regarding Livingston results and the matches I am familiar with and as I was expressing it to you at that time. As you mentioned your DNA was tested and from that test there was some info linking you to a possible Livingston distant Livingston cousin connection with both Dr. Livingstone and other Livingstons with Mull ancestry or some other source. I was speaking of knowledge of Y DNA results of Livingston males tested descended from 18th and 19th Argyllshire Livingstons. There is a Paternal Y DNA test with Familytreedna which a number of Livingston males many of Highland Maclea LivingstoneArgyllshire ancestry and some who of lowland Livingston ancestry have been doing roughly since about 2005. Some of the Livingstons who were tested beginning back around 2005 and over the years since with Y DNA Test offered by FamilytreeDNA were connected to Livingstons who visited our forum over the years and others did the Y Familytreedna test who had no interaction with our Clan Forum or were members of our Clan Maclea Livingstone Society. Much to my regret Y DNA test which are quite helpful to determining who belongs to specific old Livingston paternal lines in highland and Lowland Scotland can only be done by Livingston males. So when I mentioned my knowledge of test matches of vast majority of Livingstons of documented 18th and 19th century Argyllshire Livingston origin I am only speaking of those Livingston males who did the Y DNA test with family tree DNA. This familytreedna Y DNA test is the test with results I am familiar with and am speaking of only. And my knowledge of the Livingstons descended from 18th and 19th Livingstons residing in Argyllshire including those connected in any way to Dr. Livingstone ancestors or other Livingstons with roots in Mull, Morvern, Lismore, Appin parishes comes from the Familytreedna Y DNA testing of Livingston males from the years about 2005 and the years since then. This is the test we have been using over the years because it is thought to be the most accurate and useful in easily identifying the Livingston family origins of Livingstons who know for certain they are of Argyllshire ancestry and can prove and also Livingstons who suspect or don't really have a clue where there ancestors came from in Scotland. And there are quite a few Livingstons out there who contacted us over the years with family info or old records confirming their Livingston ancestor's location in Scotland. A Y DNA test with familytreedna I can say helped a number of Livingstons in that situation with linking them to with other Livingston Y DNA matches with familytreedna who share their same paternal Livingston ancestry and may be help them with own family history to shed light on where their ancestors might have come from in Scotland.

I am not a Livington/Livingstone but I am descended from one of great-great grandfathers who was a Morvern, Argyll Livingstone who came to what is now Western Canada back in 1812. He and his wife who was a Morvern Parish Livingston by birth also were some of the first Livingstons to settle in what years later became Canada. I was able back around 2005 to locate a distant cousin a Livingston descendant of my Morvern Livingston ancestor who was familiar our family connection with the Livingstons and was at the time researching her Livingston family history. I mentioned the Y DNA test offered by Familytreedna and that it would possibly prove helpful she very kindly got her Father do the Y DNA test. The results confirmed that our shared Livingston ancestor with my Livingston cousin had definite Morvern, Argyll Livingston origins matching with old Savary and more closely apparently with Kilundine, Morvern Maclea Livingston Argyll family but almost a little more distantly but still closely according Y DNA test results with a large number of Livingstons of known or suspected neighbouring Mull ancestry. Mull and Morvern as you may know are right beside each other in Western Argyllshire. After this test I had a descendant of a John Livingston and Catharine Campbell of Mull River, Inverness County Cape Breton, NovaScotia, Canada who you mentioned and John Livington's descendant was as it turned from Y DNA test a match with the vast majority of Livingstons of Mull Argyll ancestry tested via familytree yDNA test and with a group we refer to as the Argyllshire Maclea Livingstone Parker Livingstone Y DNA match group which also includes both a number of Livingstons of Mull, Morvern and other Western Argyllire parish origins. The largest match group so far which at last count I did numbered over 25 matches which was quite a surprise to me but I think which validates being tested by Familytreedna with a Y DNA test. The advantage with the Y DNA test with Familytreedna is that since about 2005 the number of Livingstons worldwide who have done that tests seems be quite numerous and think that is the advantage to someone wanting to do the test and have the best chance of finding Y DNA Livingston matches out there with results similar to theirs.

My problem as mentioned was that I am a male of Livingston ancestry but my father was not a Livingston so I am not capable of doing a Y DNA test because I am not a Livingston male which is necessary to this Y DNA test for Argyllshire Livingstons so my solution was to find a distant Livingston cousin out there. I got lucky in that I knew were my Canadian Livingstone cousins had for many years moved actually back in the 1870's their ancestor had moved to the U.S. So it actually just required a lot of luck and use of a phone number search. Oddly enough I talked to the Aunt by phone of the lady researcher a distant cousin who got her Livingston father to do the YDNA test with familytreedna. That however is not always easy. In your case where you are indeed a Livingston of old Scottish ancestry possibly of Argyllshire ancestry but like me not able to do the Y DNA test with family tree I would suggest trying to find a distant cousin like I did a Livingston who might be willing to Y DNA test. I realize however that is not always easy and you may not be able to find any of William Livingston descendants. I tried to see if I could locate Livingston descendants of William but I was not able to find them. I guess you don't have any Livingston brothers who could be tested. Unfortunately if you are a Livingston female and your husband is not a Livingston then your son with a non Livingston would not be a "Livingston male" descendant of Argyllshire Scottish Livingston males and he would not have thenecessary Livingston Y DNA for that Y DNA test that a number of Livingston males of Scottish ancestry have been doing since about 2005 done by family treedna unfortunately. We have been working over the years with a Y DNA test.

I know this regrettably does not help with your research efforts but I just felt I should clarify where I am getting my info on Argyllshire Livingstone Y DNA results from and that is based solely on Y DNA testing with a large group of Livingston males with Familytreedna. Interestingly enough I had both a proven great-grandson of Dr. Livingstone older brother John Livingstone 1811-1899 tested some years ago now and a Nova Scotia Livingston who was a direct descendant of the John Livingston and Catharine Campbell of Mull River, Mabou, Inverness County, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia both of these Livingston families you mentioned. Familytree YDNA testing as I may have mentioned was able to prove despite what some other Livingstons in the past have stated in their family trees in Nova Scotia this Nova Scotia John Livingston of Mull River and his ancestors in Mull, Argyll Scotland were not related to Dr. David Livingstone or grandfather Neil Livingston Sr. who was married to Mary Morrison in Lettemore Mull KIlninian Parish in the year 1774. Y DNA are pretty much conclusive. So far in fact none of the other Mull Livingston families who also settled in the early 1800's in Cape Breton Nova Scotia are a match the Livingston known descendant of Neil Livingston and Mary Morrison I had tested. I have seen a number of family trees of descendants of Cape Breton Nova Scotia Livingston on ancestry.com and a number of them are believing from earlier Nova Scotia information that some of the old families of Livingstons that settled in Cape Breton in the early 1800's were descended from Dr. Livingstone. There was great interest back in the early 2000's in our clan group to determine what Livingston families Dr. Livingstone and his Livingston family group were related to so with that in the mind at the time I made the effort to find a Livingston descendant of Dr. Livingstone's brother who I knew had settled in Ontario, Canada in the early 1840's. From a local librarian who knew had met the great grandson of Dr. LIvingstone's older brother in her library one day, she was able to help locate the present whereabouts of Dr. Livingstone's brother's great grandson. I called him introduced myself and he was kindly interested in doing in the Y DNA once he considered the value of the test to our Livingston Clan research group linked to this forum and of course to many other Livingstons who had been making inquires about a Dr. Livingstone family connection to our Clan maclea Livingstone Forum. From these Y DNA results no Y DNAmatch with any of the Nova Scotia Mull Livingston families that settled in Cape Breton Nova Scotia in the early 1800's that were tested and all have to been tested from that early settlement period. I know that would be disappointing to all those Livingstons of Cape Breton Nova Scotia Livingston ancestry that have been stating they are for certain related to Dr. Livingstone's grandparents Neil Livingston and Mary Morrison. None of these Livingstons as far I know as done or is able to do a Y DNA test with Family tree DNA so it may be in reality difficult to convince them of their error.

I was not able find any living Livingston male out there connected to your Livingston ancestors so I was not any help with that either I must admit I pride myself in the fact that over the years as the Maclea Livingstone Clan Society historian when folks who visit the forum are inquiring about their Livingston ancestors I quite frequently able to be of some benefit in helping them discover some new information they were not aware of. That was not the case in your situation. I am sorry for that. Nothing definite in Canada for William and not a lot more in the U.S records and nothing that could shed any light on his earlier Canadian origins or his Livingston families origins.

regards,

Donald
RLivingstone
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:16 pm
Location: Montana, USA

Re: William Livingstone

Post by RLivingstone »

Greg Livingston wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:19 pm You are correct about the DNA project, it is for the male line. If you have a male Livingston relative that you could convince to join the project that would help you.

There were a lot of Livingstons that came through Canada, New York, Pennsylvania, and the Carolinas. I have traced mine back to my 4th Great Grandfather born in SW Pennsylvania in the 1780's.

What part of the midwest was your ancestor from? That might help in digging deeper into information we already have and/or point us in the correct direction for further research.
Here we are, 3 years after my original post, and I've learned so much more about my Livingstone's. Mine are from Nova Scotia and immigrated through Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine and Michigan mostly. My connection to Nova Scotia is confirmed from DNA matches, along with the usual records from Ancestry dot com. No, I don't use other people's trees. I have oral history from some distant cousins who are still living, mostly in the Cape Breton area and a couple in Ontario. There is also the written personal histories from Electric Scotland and Mabou Pioneers, Vol 1 and 2 as well.

I am currently working on a line that originated in Nova Scotia and immigrated to Montana where I am, but these folks are MacDonalds. I have mostly Livingstone's, Cameron's and MacDonalds on my paternal Livingstone side. No one famous, mostly miners and railroad workers, which thrills me to know who they were just the same.

Rene'
RLivingstone
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:16 pm
Location: Montana, USA

Re: William Livingstone

Post by RLivingstone »

Canadian Livingstone wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 2:31 pm Hi R. Livingston,

I have updated this post because looking back at your earlier messages regarding your grandfather Guy Livingston and the earlier U.S info on Guy and his family very likely he and his Father had no close family connection to the Mabou Mull River Livingstons and there is no information out there to support the notion that Guy would have a Nova Scotia famiy connection. You may find via Ancestry.com for example some Livingston families of Scottish origin of different origins that perhaps shares some aspects of their DNA with your Livingtons but this is likely not as reliable an indicator of a close paternal Livingston family link with your Livingstons than if for example your father or brother had done the Y chromosome test that was mentioned.

Sorry but I needed to refresh my memory. The crux of the problem remains that Canadian records for Guy's father William born in Canada indicating who his parents were can't be found. If you have a Livingstone cousin who would be interested in doing a familytreedna Y DNA test we would be able to quite likely determine which Livingston family group your famiy is a match with but there is not guarantee that you could locate close Livingston relatives through Y DNA testing as in cousins unless some Livingston cousins had done this test. Still it your best course of action to give you some chance of getting a sense of your of more distant paternal Livingston ancestral origins if not locating a descendant of your ancestor William Livingston's kin that lived in Canada.

Your ancestor William Livingston according to the 1900 U.S Census came to the U.S. in the year 1884 with or without parents I assume. As previously mentioned William and his wife Ann married in 1891 according to the 1900 Census. I checked the marriage records around the 1891 period give or take five years after five years before just to be sure for the States of Iowa, South Dakota and Missouri with no luck finding their marriage record. This is unfortunate has it been there it would quite likely have listed the name of the parents of your ancestor William Livingston. That for me has impeded my making any progress on this one. I have researched a large number of Livingstone/Livingston families over the years with much success but on occasion one run into a dead end where the pertinent family records can't for one reason or another be located. I am very sorry about that.

One has to take the submitted family tree information with some of those on ancestry. com very cautiously. There are a lot of errors and a good number of families link themselves to Livingston families they are not related to for some reason particularly Dr. David Livingstone.

In terms of the ancestry.com test you might see a variety of unrelated Livingstone included as possible matches, but if you start seeing some Livingston ancestry.com participants linked to you as second cousins, third cousins, 4th cousins, 5th cousins you should let us know about any particularly close potential Livingston relatives and the ancestral info. The difficulty to bear in mind is that the odds are significant a Livingston cousin connected to the father of William Livingston may not have done the ancestry.com. What you may find however now or in the future that a Livingston whose family was more distantly related back in Scotland to the Father of your ancestor William Livingston make do the ancestry.com test which you did and because you share a distant Livingston ancestor and they are 5th or 6th cousins etc. they might alert to that fact. That is the kind of thing I would be watching having I think done the same ancestry.com test a few years ago myself and they frequently contact me about suspected distant cousins from both my father and mother's family groups. But again I said this is not as reliable and helpful as if you had a Livingston relative descended from William Livingston do the family tree Y DNA test where already a large number of Livingstones/ Livingstons from the United States, Canada, Scotland etc. have been over the years been tested.

regards.

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Clan Maclea Livingstone Society
Historian
Para 1: Since I first wrote this, I have taken a dna test and discovered "confirmed" 4th-6th dna matched cousins from Livingstone lines, as well as Cameron and McDonald, in the Cape Breton area. I do not have any connections to any Livingstone's outside of Nova Scotia except for 2 in Ontario.

Para 3: I have a copy of the issue of the marriage license between William Livingstone and Anna Treaster from the newspaper, as well as, a copy of their marriage certificate from the county Issuing office in Missouri. Parents were not listed for either of my great grandparents on that certificate.

Para 4: I'm well aware of how often people make mistakes in their trees. I only add actual records, never hints from others trees. I've been doing this for 35 years. As badly as I want to know for absolute sure what happened to my great grandfather, I would never just add information willy nilly because I would know it wasn't a sure thing and thats not ok with me.

Para 5: I have a 5th cousin in Nova Scotia, he and his son, are dna matches and his mother was a Livingstone who married a MacKenzie. I have a McLean, a couple of Cameron's and a few MacDonalds who also match me around the 5-7th cousin with the same Livinsgstone's in their trees as myself. These people are mostly in Nova Scotia with a couple of them in Ontario.

Sorry took so long to answer back definitively but as you know, these things take time. Rene'
Greg Livingston
Posts: 303
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:42 pm
Location: Northglenn, CO, USA

Re: William Livingstone

Post by Greg Livingston »

Glad to hear that your research is making progress, Rene'. Wish I could get past my road block.
Greg Livingston
Clan Commissioner
Northglenn, Colorado, USA
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2743
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: William Livingstone

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

HI Rene,

No doubt encouraging to you that the test you have taken is proving to be of some help to your research. Livingstone research can prove to be a challenge as I know to well from experience, but one must be persistent in their efforts I think and maybe there may be eventually a breakthrough.



regards,

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Historian Clan Maclea Livingstone Society
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