Randomly Acquired Information

[Jane M Livingstone]

Hi John

Yes, when they were recording ages on the census, they had to use multiples of five so that needs to be considered when looking at ages. Also, spellings and variations of names were at the discretion of the census taker. On Mull, in particular, there was another issue related to age - it was not the done thing to know someone's age, apparently, so there are always discrepancies in age. I don't know if this was a common issue across the Western Isles, the Highlands or just a Mull thing.

Jane

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Jane,

Apparently it was also quite common for the census taker to be a local, such as a church elder / teacher, who knew everyone in his district, the less conscientious ones, apparently would not always bother to actually go around their district to do the census, they would do it from memory.
Why go out on a wet cold night, when you can write the census info up in the relative warmth of your home, this probaly didn't do much for the accuracy of the info recorded.

The fact people were not as well educated as nowadays, probably ended up with many guesses at age etc., I've got certificates from the late 1800's, where folk are still signing with an X mark.
I feel the 1841 Jura census, could be a prime example of some, or all of the above getting ages etc. wrong,

John

[Canadian Livingstone]

HI John,

Yes that could very well be in the case of your Angus Livingston of Jura circa 1841. One cannot count on total accuracy on ages recorded in these old census records to be certain. I had one 19th century ancestor a great-great grandfather that consistently was recorded as several years younger than he actually was. Whether he was responsible for that or the census taker I was not sure.
regards,
Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

I agree one cant be 100 percent sure the 1802 Glasgow info that was found refers to your kin though it certainly seems to. THere is however another complicating factor in your search for Angus Livingston said to be born 1775 or 1781 presumingly of Kilfinichen Parish, Mull and his ancestors. A major problem for you is that no register for Kilfinichen Parish ever existed before the year 1780 and the earliest register from that time period is known to have been lost and all that we have today in terms of Baptismal and Marriage records begins in the year 1804. This being the case I am not certain how anyone can be certain that your ancestor Angus Livingston was born in 1775 at Shiaba in Kilfinichen Parish though that may very well be the case. Interestingly regarding the limitations of the Kilfinchen Parish information the records for Angus Livingston and Margaret Hall's children begin shortly after 1804 with the first one for his son John in 1805 in Kilfinchen Parish, Mull. Is it possible that Angus and Margaret had children baptised before 1804 in Kilfinchen Parish. I guess will never know that for sure. Some things in genealogy are ultimately unknowable given the limits of the surviving records. Based on these Kilfinchen Parish baptisms of Angus Livingston and Margaret Hall's children we can assume they lived at Kilpatrick and Shiaba in Kilfinchen at Mull in the early 1800's and sometime between 1830 and 1840 ended up on the Isle of Jura where Angus and Margaret are in the 1841 Census.

You have basically the same problem I have with researching my great-great-great grandfather Miles Livingstone. THe Morvern Parish records do not exist today before the early 1800's. I rely on other valuable sources for information on Miles that just happen to exist by chance and have pieced together alot of helpful info. But as I said that was just plain luck that alternative source material existed.
regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Donald,

I'm actually more intrigued in where Angus & Margaret disappeared to after Jura, something I'm not too sure that I'll ever get a result from, at the end of the day, I've almost achieved what I set out to do, to leave my family at least some idea of where they originated.
In the process of achieving this, I have been in contact with some folk who are definitely family members, & others who are almost certainly family, they are located in various areas of the world, I did not know any of these folk existed before I got involved in this research.
Had I not got involved in this research & DNA, I would never have heard from them, or come to that, yourself & others on this board.
So, much as I would love to be able to get more info on Angus & Margaret, I really won't be too disappointed if I do not find anything more, although I'll keep looking.

I noticed in postings on the old forum, it was thought Margarets family name was shown as Hale at times, I've spent a fair bit of time looking at OPR's, in my opinion, the name is always Hall, the reason it appears to be Hale, is purely the way the registrar writes the final L.
Somewhere else she was called McPhail, www.scotsfamily.com., reckon McPhail was probably Margarets mothers name, apparently, in the 1700's, females were frequently known by their mothers family name, not by their fathers family name.

There is also somewhere, I think IGI, that Angus is called Livingstone or McGilvray, on studying the OPR's concerned, it turns out the registrar mistakenly entered Angus McGilvray, then corrected his error to Livingstone, McGilvray was the next entry down in his list.

Wouldn't it be boring if all these old relations were easy to track down, Scotland, by the way, is relatively easy compared to Irish family members, it could easily drive you to drink trying to trace them down,

John

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

I have started looking to this Hall and McPhail connection and I can find no independent confirmation that Hall and McPhail are the same name as some have suggested at least in the case of your Mull family. In the none of the Kilfinchen Parish records did we find Angus LIvingston's wife refered to any other than Hall. I realize at one time here the case was made that Hall and McPhail were the synonmonous but we certainly dont see McPhail used in any of your original family records in Scotlland so I am somewhat sceptical that this usage is connected to your ancestor. It is one thing for someone in the past to try to make this connection without original family documentation and another to have the documentation which I dont think they had. You have made the effort to track down Angus Livingston and Margaret Hall's childrens baptismal records from Kilfinchen Parish, Mull and I think you definitely have some tangible proof as to Margaret's maiden name being Hall.

What puzzles me is the lack of Hall's in Argylshire for the most part and in Mull in particular. It is not a common family that lived in Mull so it could very well be that your ancestor Angus married her while in the lowlands and it would make sense then that one of the older children was infact born in the lowlands. In the 1841 and 1851 Census records you find a few Halls in Argyllshire in Campbeltown for example but very few in your ancestor Angus Livingston's stomping ground of Mull in Western Argyll. So there certainly is a high probability they met and married outside of Mull, outside of Western Argyll and outside of Argyllshire. So in light of this that 1802 record from Glasgow could very well be correct as your researcher indicated. In the year 1891 for example only 2% of Halls could be found in Argyll. It is interesting to note that the largest concentration of Halls in the year 1891 was in Lanarkshire where Glasgow is infact located. So one scenario might be that Margaret Hall is not from the highland Argyllshire at all but from Lanarkshire perhaps not born there as the 1841 Census states born in Foreign parts whatever that means.

From time to time in Scottish family census information from Scotland and Canadian census records I find that a Scottish widow is referred to by her maiden name rather than her husband's name. I did not know if that was common practice or not I just noticed it from time to time and found it interesting.

regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Donald,

I've often wondered if possibly Angus & Margaret met during his military service, possibly Margaret was born overseas while her father was also in the military, this could account for her being ''born in foreign parts'', presumably, the British military had their camp followers.

Hall is quite a common name in the lowland west of Scotland.

The only places I have seen McPhail mentioned concerning Margaret, was, I think, in some of Keiths research, & possibly, in an OPR, which at the moment I cannot find, & the theory, that it could have been Margarets mothers family name.

Will we ever know the truth, I doubt it.

John

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

I remember the earlier references to Hall and McPhail connection but interestingly in info on either ANgus Livingston of Jura or Angus Livingston of Cape Breton who infact are two different Livingstons is there a McPhail family connection. Donald Livingston of Morvern settled in Prince Edward Island in 1806 and one of his sons married a McPhail I believe and this McPhail family settled in PEI near to Donald. That was only McPhail family that came up in course of my own research of Donald Livingston Prince Edward Island but they had no known connection that I was aware to either Angus Livingston of Cape Breton or Angus Livingston of Jura. I have been trying to determine who contacted Keith with the info that the Angus Livingston of Cape Breton and Jura were one and the same and that Margaret Hall was a McPhail. The first bit of information is definite incorrect as we have family trees and census data from both ANgus Livingstons and they can clearly be seen as two distinct Angus Livingstons with different families, different origins and histories. And it also seems like the Hall and McPhail connection may be an error though it may be that some Halls somewhere may have gone by the name McPhail at one time.

I dont know for certain but would expect that your Angus Livingston left the military service sometime following the Napoleonic War but it is possible it stayed on sometime longer than that. Sure would be helpful if we find information on him in the CHelsea Pensioner Records for former Soldiers. As his first child was born in 1802 however I assume that he only served prior to 1800 married around 1800 or 1801 possibly in Glasgow upon finishing his military service. I assume that he did not go back to the military after 1800 and after marrying and living with his wife Margaret Hall in lowland Glasgow, Lanarkshire decided not to return to the military and to return with his wife and eldest child to Kilfinchen Parish where more children were subsequently born reinforcing the notion that he did return to the military after 1800 and that his military career was probably in the 1790`s.

The information on Margaret Hall coming from `foreign parts`is interesting and I assume it means her family travelled to some foreign part or perhaps she was born in the colonies though it is funny that a colony is not mentioned. Since we know that they had a child in 1802 at Glasgow it probable but not absolutely certain that he met Margaret Hall in Lanarkshire though I suppose he could have met her in Europe. It seems unlikely that he met his lowland Scottish wife in Spain or some other country where he had been serving however. I think it more likely that he met and married Margaret Hall in Glasgow, Lanarkshire in lowland Scotland where this family name is not uncommon according to my research and where her family may have lived. This of course is speculation on my part based upon what few clues we have to work with on this early period of your ANgus Livingston;s life.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

There were something in the nature of about 116 Halls living in Glasgow according to the 1841 Census and more living elsewhere in Lanarkshire so it is conceivable that he met and married Margaret Hall and lived briefly in Glasgow, Lanarkshire in the lowlands upon completing several years in the British Army. Once again speculaton on my part. If we can find a Chelsea Pension record for him then we may be able to confirm precisely what years he served. So far looking an the index to WO97 I only see one Angus Livingston that might be him but it gives no year of birth or location. I am not just not certain the record survived. I hope it did. An 1807 baptismal record of one of his children in Mull Kilfinichen Parish confirms that prior to 1807 ANgus was a British Military ``pensioner`` so that pretty much validates my theory that his miltary career was completed well before the end of the Napoleonic War.

regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Donald,

I've contacted www.scotsfamily.com to see if they can unearth any new info on Angus or Margaret, I've requested info on Margarets birth place etc, & also where they disappeared to after 1841,

John