McLay family

[Kyle MacLea]

The surname books definitely point you in the direction of Stewarts and in particular the Stewarts of Appin.

In my family, that was a popular tartan for the same reasons you list, Janet.

Then, we were in a Scottish shop here in New Hampshire, and they pointed out the Maclay tartan to us, and so then my family bought some items in that tartan.

When I was looking to get married, I looked at all of those... Stewart of Appin, Maclay, and Livingston Modern and Ancient.

And because I'm so considerate ( ), I asked my future wife for her preference. She thought the Livingston Modern would look nicest with her bridesmaids. And so that was the one I picked.

Given my new role as Commissioner for the Clan, this has turned out to be quite appropriate. But I think given our historical alliance with the Stewarts (esp. of Appin) and our ties with the older Mclay name--the other choices are also quite appropriate (including the hunting Stewart).

And as Donald has pointed out, the historic nature of any of these is up for question, regardless.

I think that tartan in its modern incarnation should be used as it has been used the past 100-200 years: as a (perhaps artificial, but real in some sense) marker of identity. And since we all have different aspects to our identity, our choice of tartan on a given day may reflect different aspects of that identity. One day, we want to show our historical relationship to the Stewarts, another assert our individuality as McLeas. It's quite a color pallet out there!

Kyle=

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Kyle,

I must confess I am wearing a Stewart of Appin tartan scarve only because it is heavy and warm for the winter weather and my light weight Livingstone 1003 has been missing for about year or more and presumed lost. If I could find a heavy weight Livingstone 1003 tartan wool scarf now that would be a great thing.I agree we have a historical association with Stewart of Appin particularly in the context of the 1745 Rebellion where a number of Western Argyllshire Maclea-Livingstones served in the Appin Regiment led by the Stewarts of Appin and think that makes the wearing of the Appin Stewart tartan quite appropriate I would think. But it is also important to note we had a close association in earlier rebellions and battles with another neighbouring clan the McDougalls of Dunollie in Western Argyll who were once a very powerful clan in their own right in the highlands. To some our often stated historic relationship with the Stewarts of Appin is somewhat of a touchy subject with some justification. Tartan books in the past have been unfortunately quick to catergorise highland Livingstones as a small minor clan and sept of the Stewarts of Appin if we are mentioned at all and in doing so unfairly overlooks the interesting history of one of the oldest clans in Argyll. We are fortunate that Baron Niall Livingstone our Clan Chief and the late Rob Livingstone took on the task of trying to the get the message out regarding the history of our ancient clan, something which with few exceptions had for the most part been ignored in the past.

regards,

Donald

[janetparkes]

Hi Donald,

No I am not the Jean, but you are right that historically those names were often used interchangeably. As to your other question, I will have another look at the original records to refresh my memory.

All the best,
Janet

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Janet,

Did you notice if Doug has any Mclay relatives he is contact with that would be interested in our genealogical research and the Mclay part of the DNA project?

regards,

Donald

[janetparkes]

Hi Donald,

I checked Helen Dalrymple nee Mclea's DC (1793 - 1857) and find that not only was she illegitimate but her father John Mclay (as spelled on the birth register) was a soldier, and therefore neither married to Helen Muir nor the same as John Mclay the drover married to Mary Baird. Many thanks for getting me to look more carefully at that; goodness knows where I got the original info. Irritatingly, I cannot yet identify which family her soldier father belongs to. Findmypast military records may eventually come good there.

Meanwhile, looking at other DCs where John Mclay's children have died after 1855, I see John Mclay was also described as a farmer and a builder as well as a drover! I still think there's a good possibility that Isabella Buchan was his second, younger wife, though there remains the possibility that she was the first wife of John's son John. The dates work as well there, though it would be odd that the second daughter was called Margaret and not Mary. On the DCs of the two daughters of Isabella Buchan, one gives her father as a coal miner and the other as a general labourer. Given that at least two of John the drover's sons were coal miners and one an iron miner, it is possible that the father as well as being a drover and a farmer and a builder was a labourer and a miner. Meanwhile, the younger John was a builder. In short, I am now confused, but this brings everybody up to date! The message is that a man had to make his living in any way he could, and this particular John turned his hand to many occupations! Thank goodness for the reliable help that the lore of Scottish naming patterns more often than not supplies!

Best wishes,
Janet

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Janet,

It is also unfortunate that the Muiravonside Parish records to no go farther back. In any event if Doug ever decides to take a trip to Scotland he will know to visit Muiravonside Parish, Stirlingshire to connect with his Scottish roots.

regards,

Donald

[Kyle MacLea]

Good work as always, Janet and Donald!

Kyle=

[Kyle MacLea]

I got this information from Jill Larsen, head of the MCLAY One Name Project, who concurs with the major interpretations of Janet and Donald. Thank you to Jill for this detailed response and some great information. Doug--if you'd like more information from Jill, I can pass your email to Jill. Just let me know!

I don't think I can add much more to Janet Parkes reply, although I do have another child - Janet -for John MCLAY & Janet MCNIE baptised in Larbert 18 May 1754. Judging by later occupations I would guess that the families were all involved in mining in the Polmont, Muiravonside & Larbert areas and moved around as work dictated.

With the insistance of two children of John MCLAY & Mary BAIRD that they were born in England, I think Janet's suggestion of droving cattle is the likely solution. Alexander was baptised in Polmont 6 May 1798 & William was baptised 01 Mar 1801 in Muiravonside so there is a gap of almost 3 years into which Robert's birth fits neatly. Plenty of time for the family to cross the border several times - or just settle for some time in England. The fact that in 1841 Alexander also says that he was born in England confuses the issue a little. As he seems to have died before 1851 nothing further can be proved.

Regarding Dugald RANKINE & his wife Isabella, Doug mentions that she died in 1915. However she actually died 27 Sep 1880 in Airdrie.
In the 1881 Census Dugald's family is listed as follows:-

Belmont Dugald RANKINE Head wid 34 ironmonger & plumber emp 4 men 4 boys LKS Airdrie
David (Daniel)" son 9 scholar LKS Airdrie
John M Lay " son 7 " LKS Airdrie
David " son 5 " LKS Airdrie
Maggie T " dau 1 LKS Airdrie
Janet L. MCLAY sis-l -- 24 LKS Airdrie
Helen BRODIE serv 19 gen dom serv LKS Old Monkland
651-1 17 19 0203696 New Monkland

Janet Love MCLAY had obviously come to help with the children when her sister Isabella was ill and stayed after her death. She appears to have stayed on as Dugald's wife. I do not have a marriage cert.

In 1891 & 1901 she is still there as Dugald's wife & with their children Robert McLay RANKINE & Eleanor B RANKINE.

John MCLAY & Mary LOVE do not appear to have moved to Bute until sometime between 1871 & 1881. Until 1871 they lived in Airdrie, but in 1881 they are in Wellpark House, Bute with their chn Maggie & Robert and also Mary Love RANKINE aged 3, their granddaughter who was still with them in 1891. I assume it was the retirement home for a well-to-do ex-coalmaster.

Hope this is of some use. Like Janet I have a lot of info about the other children in this large family and am happy to share any Doug would like.

Kyle=

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Kyle,

Thanks for that. I would say that we are all in agreement regarding the Muiravonside and Polmont Parish Stirlingshire information and the subsequent family info that was located for Airdrie, Monkland Lanarkshire and later on in Bute. Before the 1790's I am not as certain.

regards,

Donald