Randomly Acquired Information

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

There is some debate whether or not people were cleared in the 1840's on Jura or just left of their own free will, but as far as Livingston's go the 1841 Census indicates that by the 1841 Census there were only roughly three Livingstonn families on Jura consisting of that of your ANgus a military pensioner and Margaret Livingston, John Livingston a slate quarrier and his wife Christian or Christina Flemming and a Neil and Effy Livingston and their children. Interestingly Angus we know is from Mull and John Livingston and his wife Christian or Christina we find out later in the 1851 Census was originally from Kilchattan so apparently very few or next to no original Livingstons who lived for any great length of time on Jura at this point in time. I believe some of the Livingstons from MOrvern and Islay connected to my ancestor Miles also briefly worked on the Isle of Jura around 1819 before heading to Canada. I am not sure why some of these Livingstons left Mull, Movern, Islay and other parts of Argyll for Jura a the time. Prior to 1840 I assume there was some employment there attracting them. I was wondering why some of my Livingstons were briefly at Jura in the early 1800's before departing for Canada.

We know that in Angus Livingstons case he was not on Jura for long it would seem. Not before 1830 did he leave Mull and obviously he has departed or died by 1851. Unless your researchers can find a tenant record from this period from the Isle of Jura I am not certain what else could be found related to Jura.

regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Donald,

As you will see below, 1851 census for Kilmeny, has John & part of his family at Colonsay, Neil was born there 1841-42, although I saw somewhere else that he was actually born on Jura, & Colonsay was where the registrar office was located.
It makes me wonder if possibly both Angus & John were enroute Islay at the time, we know John was definitely heading for Islay, seems a bit of a coincidence they were both within a few miles of each other, or both on Jura around 1841-42.
Even in the 1960's, Islay was not the easiest place to get to from the mainland, so there would have to be some good reason for them both being there around the same time.

The really annoying thing for me, in the 1950's, my fathers uncles & my aunt, used to visit from Islay, the uncles were both in their 70's, what a lot of info they could have supplied, unfortunately, in these days, talkabout older family members was just boring to me.

The death of John, see cert. below, is the only place I have seen Margarets maiden name as McPhail, this could easiy have been a mistake by the registrar, which was later corrected .
A good example of this, is where Angus was listed as McGilvray, this was the name of the next person on the OPR, the registar corrected his mistake, some sites still insist on listing Angus as Livingstone/McGilvray.


1851 Census – Parish of Kilmeny, County of Argyll

Esknish

Name relation age Marr/unm occupation born
John Livingstone Head 55 Marr Handloom Weaver Argyll, Mull
Agnes Livingstone Wife 54 Marr Blackburn, Linlithgowsh.
Gavine Livingstone Son 16 Unm Apprentice to father Blackburn, Linlithgowsh.
Neil Livingstone Son 9 Confined to bed for years Argyll, Collonsay



Death certificate 1858 Parish of Kilmeny County of Argyll
Livingstone, John, woolen and cotton weaver, married, died on 6th July 1858, at Tirvagan, at age 52 years. Father Angus Livingstone, Chelsea Pensioner (deceased), mother Margt. Livingstone, maiden name McPhail (deceased).
Cause of death: Disease of the Brain, as certified by Alex. Currier, MD who saw him on the 5th July.
Burial place: Burial ground of Kilmeny as certified by his son James Livingstone, the informant.
Informant: James Livingstone, son (present).

John

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

Well that death record certainly backs the notion that Margaret Hall was also known by the gaelic name McPhail by her family. One could play it safe by simply stating that Margaret was known as Margaret Hall also Mcphail and then all possibilities are covered. Interesting in the earlier records she is referred to as Hall and later McPhail. Interestingly I did notice that a few others beyond our forum seem to be linking Hall with McPhail though there was not alot of conclusive information on the connection. Still having this information in the death record of her son John is pretty compelling evidence that she probably went by name Hall and McPhail.

regards

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi JOhn,

The other detail that John's death record tells us about his parents is that they were both deceased prior to 1858 which may help to explain why we cant find a death record particularly if they died before 1855.

regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Donald,

Ref. Margaret being known as Hall or McPhail, I got the following from www.scotsfamily.com, ''A difference in female surnames (Hall-McPhail) is often found in Highland records, as a result of the mothers maiden surname bein used rather than the expected paternal surname''.

Even if I never find any more on Angus & Margaret, due to researching them, I have been in contact with folk in America, Canada & Australia, who are almost certainly descended from from Angus & Margaret,& others who probably are not related, but originated in the same area of Mull. Three or four years ago, I never new these folk existed, also through Livingstone research, I also was contacted by a relative on my mothers side of the family.

Some one somewere reckoned Angus fathers name may have been Neil, & he may have had a brother called Donald, apparently this is in a Mull census at some point, I've not had time to look for it as yet, unfortunately, I have to do some work now & again in between working on this research,

John

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

No doubt descendants of Angus and Margaret are spread far and wide. As I mentioned earlier there was another Angus Livingston born in 1773 likely of Kilninian Parish, Mull orign, a Napoleonic War vet and sailor who served aboard the Royal George a Channel Flag ship during the Napoleonic War period. One of a number of highland Livingstons who served in the British military during this period I have found as did your ancestor Angus Livingston. Dr. Livingstone's Uncles John, Charles, Duncan and Donald are said to also have served in the Navy or Army and while the family was centred around Blantyre, Lanarkshire in the lowlands by the time of the Napoleonic War their family origins like our Livingston families is in Western Argyllshire.

Following the War this other Angus Livingston settled in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia in 1816 and received a land grant at Boularderie, Bras d'or in Victoria COunty by about 1819. His sons were Laughlin, Alexander, Archibald and Roderick and a number of Alexanders decendants have been in contact with the forum sharing with us their family history information. ONe of them Ann Capstick has done some extensive research on old Angus and his Cape Breton family. I found out from one family researcher that there was one grandson of this ANgus a Charles ANgus Livingston born abt. 1840 whom left Cape Breton for Australia. So there is apparently an Australian connection to Cape Breton ANgus Livingston family but this ANgus has no known connection to your Angus. We have this Angus and his sons Alexander and Archibald in an 1841 Census for Cape Breton as your Angus and his wife are at Jura in the 1841 Scottish census. If you come across any confusion regarding to these two Angus Livingstons and their families please alert me. As the Maclea Livingstone Society Historian I do my best to try and sort these things out. I know it was suggested at one point that Angus Livingston sailor and shipbuilder of Cape Breton went back to Scotland but the Cape Breton records clearly indicate that was not the case and by all accounts he remained in the Boularderie community on Cape Breton until his death. His eldest son Laughlin is the only one his family to return as far as we know apparently in the early 1800's. Roderick a sailor died in 1870 and the other two brother Alexander and Archibald died later and are buried with their wives in a local church cemetery in the Boularderie vicninty.

regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Donald,

Looking for help on this one, I've been contacted by another Livingstone, her family may be descended from Angus's son Hugh, dates etc appear to tie in, what I've got, is as follows;

Hugh & son Duncan (& possibly rest of family ) emigrate to Canada, I don't have date of emigration, Duncan was 13 years at this time, shortly later he lied about his age to join the Black Watch Regiment of Canada.

At some point Duncan, wife & daughter Catherine moved to Michigan, his wife died & he married her friend Ida, who was around 15 years old, Duncan was 42 years old.

At this time they lived in Hale, Michigan, after marrying Ida, they moved to Boyne City, Michigan, his daughter Catherine, & his brother-in-law also moved to this location.

General info., Duncan played the fiddle, the families first language was gaelic, Duncan worked at some point as a security guard in a lumber yard, he died in a house fire at 72 years old.

Does anyone have access to records of the Black Watch of Canada, probably around 1900, not sure on dates, but Duncan would have been born in Glasgow probably in the late 1800's.

Unfortunately, I accidently deleted the original e-mail, so I do not have dates available at present any info will be gratefully received, any info received, I will pass on, thanks,

John

[Jewel]

Hello,

I found Duncan Livingtone living alone as a widow, age 39, born Scotland, October 1860 , 1900 census South Arm TWP. County Charlevoix, Michigan.

Marriage: June 5, 1901, Charlevoix, Michigan. Age 36 , born Scotland 1865. parents: Hugh Livingstone & Jane Cameron. Bride Ida May Cook. her parents not given.

1920 census. for Duncan & Ida. Florence C., Sarah A.,Donald H.,Elmer D.,William. Charlevoix,Michigan.

Jewel

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

What info do we have on Hugh b. abt. 1821 after his appearance with his father Angus and Margaret at Jura in the 1841 Census? Cant find Hugh in the subsequent 1851 and 1861 Census records in Scotland. The early marriage records do not name the parents so it is a bit of a challenge locating Hugh's marriage record. I could not find a marriage record for Hugh Livingston and Jane Cameron in the Scottish records unfortunately or baptism records as yet for their children in the Scottish records as yet.

regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Jewel/Donald,

Thanks for the rapid reply on Hugh & Duncan, although I'm far from convinced the particular Hugh she is looking for is actually the grandson of Angus & Margaret, there are enough discrepancies in ages etc. to make it very doubtful.

What I have on Hugh, the son of Angus & Margaret, is as follows;

1. Born or baptised. 06.06.1819 at Kilfinichen & Kilvickeon, last known address 23,. James St., Calton, Glasgow, disappears after 1861 census. Hugh was employed as a weaving utensil maker.

2. Possibly married to Jane or Jean Shannon, who was born abt. 1820, possibly she came from Fortuilham, Invernesshire. Not too sure of Jane Shannon being correct, I came across this some where, at the moment I cannot track it down again at present.

3. In 1861 census they had three children living at home, Margaret 17 yrs.old, who worked as a dressmaker, Robert 12 yrs.old, & Duncan 3yrs. old. They also had a son Hugh, who died 13.09.1859 at 13 yrs. old.

Thanks Jewel, the info you supplied appears to be the correct family, I'll pass it on to the person who contacted me, to see if she can confirm it.

Donald, if I remember correctly, in the 1861 census of Glasgow, Hughs surname is mispelled as Levingstone,

John.