Terry,
Do you know of a Bruce Sandison or Sanderson, he has a family tree on Ancestry, which includes a couple of photos of Hugh McD. Livingstone & his wife,there are another two family trees, they do not contain much info, possibly folk just making a start on it,
John.
Killlunaig Burial Ground
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Re: Killlunaig Burial Ground
Hi Everyone,
In order to answer everyone's comments, you will have to listen to the trials and tribulations of an amateur genealogist.
Working backawards in time:
Hugh McDiarmid Livingstone born 1854 in Swordle Chorrach Ardnamurchan. His birth does not appear in Scotland's People OPRs, IGI or anywhere else and yet my dad had a letter from the Scots Ancestry Research Society (SARS) in 1986 quoting the details of the birth (and that was as far as he got). After wasting many hours/days/weeks looking for his birth, last year I engaged the services of a lady from SARS to try to find it. She would have probably given up also were it not for the letter which proved that something existed. Eventually she found a number of births from Ardnamurchan that had been totally missed by everyone - never copied, never indexed (something to do with the structure of the parish of Ardnamurchan) and young Hugh was amongst them.
Hugh's parents were Hugh/Ewen Livingstone and Catherine McDiarmid.
Hugh Moved to Glasgow in 1873 and then emigrated to Australia in 1879.
Hugh/Ewen Livingstone: was born in Glenmore Arnamurchan in c1817 (from the census records). There are no records of his birth in Scotland's People or anywhere else. Hugh and Catherine married in Glenmore in Oct 1842 and had 5 children - Angus (1844), Anne (1846), Marianne (1849), Margaret (1851) and Hugh McD(1854). OPRs exist for all the other children. There may also have been a Mary (b1843) who floats into the picture at one point but I think she belongs to someone else. Hugh, Catherine and family were in Glenmore for the 1851 Census and moved to Swordle sometime before 1854 when Hugh McD was born. Hugh was a shepherd at Swordle and my theory is that he took this up after Swordle was cleared of Crofters in 1853. In 1855 the family moved to Gorteneorn Acharachle. Son Angus died in Acharachle in 1855 from whooping cough - this is the first of the Killunaig records. In the 1861 Census, Hugh, Catherine, Margaret and Hugh McD are still in Gorteneorn. In 1864, the family moved to Port of Menteith where Hugh and Catherine eventually died. As yet, I have not been able to establish the reason for Port of Menteith but I'll get there one day.
The 1892 death cert for Catherine (McDiarmid) at Malling Port of Menteith, shows that her parents were Angus McDiarmid and Margaret McDonald. The informant was granddaughter Catherine Graham. The 1900 death cert for Hugh at ballabeg Port of Menteith says that his wife was Catherine Menzies and that his parents were Angus Livingstone and Margaret McDonald. The informant was Son in Law, Peter Graham (Marianne's husband). So either there was a bit of monkey business going on or one of the informants got the parents wrong. Given that Hugh was alive when Catherine died, I figured it was more likely that Peter got it wrong. This is confirmed by the 1851 census which shows an Angus & Margaret McDiarmid and family living at Glenmore. And if Peter Graham was wrong with the parents, there is a good chance that he was also wrong with Catherine's maiden name. So no second marriage to Hugh.
Angus Livingstone: Based on the 1841 Census, I had my suspicions as to who Hugh/Ewen's parents were but, like you guys, I was unable to find anything for his birth. So, without telling her of these suspicions, I once again turned it over to my trusty researcher from SARS. She found a statutory record for the 1855 death in Laga (near Glenmore) Ardnamurchan of Anne Livingstone (Cameron). This is the second of the Killunaig records. The record listed all of her children: Mere (c1809), Mary (c1813), Ewen (c1817), Alexander (c1819), Archibald (c1821), Isabella (c1823), Janet (c1825) and Mary (1829). The birth year of the Ewen child corresponds with the birth year for my Hugh. Anne's husband was Angus so Peter Graham got that bit right. Angus and Anne Livingstone was the family I had suspected from the 1841 census. Once again, OPR records exist for 5 of the other children - just not for Ewen. I'm just unlucky I guess
So Hugh's parents were Angus Livingstone , born c1771 (from the 1841 Census) and Anne Cameron born c 1781 (also from the 1841 census). They were married about 1807 but I cant find a marriage record for them.
According to SARS, baptisms do not start until 1777 and are only extant for two years until January 1779 when there is a long gap until 1802. Marriages in these OPRs begin in 1776. Records for Sunart and Strontian start in 1804 and for Aharacle start in 1829. So based on this it seemed as if we were at the end of the line for the Livingstones. However . . . . .
Donald Livingstone: In the 1851 Census, there were a group of Livingstone sisters living in Glenmore, very near to Hugh and Catherine - Mary, Anne and Mysie. I had often looked at them and tried to figure out where they fit in. Early this year, I obtained the 1868 death cert for one of them, Mysie Livingstone, on the basis that there could not have been too many Mysie Livingstones around. It showed that her parents were Donald Livingstone and Catherine McPherson. It also showed that the informant was a nephew, Archibald Livingstone. Angus and Anne Livingstone had a son Archibald which, if he was the informant, would mean that Angus and Mysie were brother and sister and of course Hugh’s parents would have also been Donald Livingstone and Catherine McPherson. I then found the death of Mary Livingstone in 1858 in Glenmore, father Donald and mother Catherine McPherson and the informant was a brother Angus Livingstone. This is the third of the Killunaig records. Both of these deaths seemed to point to the fact that Angus, Mysie and Mary were siblings which would mean that Angus's parents were Donald Livingstone and Catherine McPherson. The doubt I have is that my Angus was not alive in 1858 and that it was another Angus and nephew Archibald who were witnesses. Still trying to resolve that one.
If it is the correct Angus, then the last generation would be Donald Livingstone, born c1745 and Catherine McPherson born c1745; married around 1770.
So there you have it. I hope that allows you to place my family in the overall scheme of things. Not too sure if I can mention the name of the researcher at SARS who got me out of the tight spots but she was bloody excellent.
Now back to Killunaig . . . . . . .
Cheers
Terry
In order to answer everyone's comments, you will have to listen to the trials and tribulations of an amateur genealogist.
Working backawards in time:
Hugh McDiarmid Livingstone born 1854 in Swordle Chorrach Ardnamurchan. His birth does not appear in Scotland's People OPRs, IGI or anywhere else and yet my dad had a letter from the Scots Ancestry Research Society (SARS) in 1986 quoting the details of the birth (and that was as far as he got). After wasting many hours/days/weeks looking for his birth, last year I engaged the services of a lady from SARS to try to find it. She would have probably given up also were it not for the letter which proved that something existed. Eventually she found a number of births from Ardnamurchan that had been totally missed by everyone - never copied, never indexed (something to do with the structure of the parish of Ardnamurchan) and young Hugh was amongst them.
Hugh's parents were Hugh/Ewen Livingstone and Catherine McDiarmid.
Hugh Moved to Glasgow in 1873 and then emigrated to Australia in 1879.
Hugh/Ewen Livingstone: was born in Glenmore Arnamurchan in c1817 (from the census records). There are no records of his birth in Scotland's People or anywhere else. Hugh and Catherine married in Glenmore in Oct 1842 and had 5 children - Angus (1844), Anne (1846), Marianne (1849), Margaret (1851) and Hugh McD(1854). OPRs exist for all the other children. There may also have been a Mary (b1843) who floats into the picture at one point but I think she belongs to someone else. Hugh, Catherine and family were in Glenmore for the 1851 Census and moved to Swordle sometime before 1854 when Hugh McD was born. Hugh was a shepherd at Swordle and my theory is that he took this up after Swordle was cleared of Crofters in 1853. In 1855 the family moved to Gorteneorn Acharachle. Son Angus died in Acharachle in 1855 from whooping cough - this is the first of the Killunaig records. In the 1861 Census, Hugh, Catherine, Margaret and Hugh McD are still in Gorteneorn. In 1864, the family moved to Port of Menteith where Hugh and Catherine eventually died. As yet, I have not been able to establish the reason for Port of Menteith but I'll get there one day.
The 1892 death cert for Catherine (McDiarmid) at Malling Port of Menteith, shows that her parents were Angus McDiarmid and Margaret McDonald. The informant was granddaughter Catherine Graham. The 1900 death cert for Hugh at ballabeg Port of Menteith says that his wife was Catherine Menzies and that his parents were Angus Livingstone and Margaret McDonald. The informant was Son in Law, Peter Graham (Marianne's husband). So either there was a bit of monkey business going on or one of the informants got the parents wrong. Given that Hugh was alive when Catherine died, I figured it was more likely that Peter got it wrong. This is confirmed by the 1851 census which shows an Angus & Margaret McDiarmid and family living at Glenmore. And if Peter Graham was wrong with the parents, there is a good chance that he was also wrong with Catherine's maiden name. So no second marriage to Hugh.
Angus Livingstone: Based on the 1841 Census, I had my suspicions as to who Hugh/Ewen's parents were but, like you guys, I was unable to find anything for his birth. So, without telling her of these suspicions, I once again turned it over to my trusty researcher from SARS. She found a statutory record for the 1855 death in Laga (near Glenmore) Ardnamurchan of Anne Livingstone (Cameron). This is the second of the Killunaig records. The record listed all of her children: Mere (c1809), Mary (c1813), Ewen (c1817), Alexander (c1819), Archibald (c1821), Isabella (c1823), Janet (c1825) and Mary (1829). The birth year of the Ewen child corresponds with the birth year for my Hugh. Anne's husband was Angus so Peter Graham got that bit right. Angus and Anne Livingstone was the family I had suspected from the 1841 census. Once again, OPR records exist for 5 of the other children - just not for Ewen. I'm just unlucky I guess
So Hugh's parents were Angus Livingstone , born c1771 (from the 1841 Census) and Anne Cameron born c 1781 (also from the 1841 census). They were married about 1807 but I cant find a marriage record for them.
According to SARS, baptisms do not start until 1777 and are only extant for two years until January 1779 when there is a long gap until 1802. Marriages in these OPRs begin in 1776. Records for Sunart and Strontian start in 1804 and for Aharacle start in 1829. So based on this it seemed as if we were at the end of the line for the Livingstones. However . . . . .
Donald Livingstone: In the 1851 Census, there were a group of Livingstone sisters living in Glenmore, very near to Hugh and Catherine - Mary, Anne and Mysie. I had often looked at them and tried to figure out where they fit in. Early this year, I obtained the 1868 death cert for one of them, Mysie Livingstone, on the basis that there could not have been too many Mysie Livingstones around. It showed that her parents were Donald Livingstone and Catherine McPherson. It also showed that the informant was a nephew, Archibald Livingstone. Angus and Anne Livingstone had a son Archibald which, if he was the informant, would mean that Angus and Mysie were brother and sister and of course Hugh’s parents would have also been Donald Livingstone and Catherine McPherson. I then found the death of Mary Livingstone in 1858 in Glenmore, father Donald and mother Catherine McPherson and the informant was a brother Angus Livingstone. This is the third of the Killunaig records. Both of these deaths seemed to point to the fact that Angus, Mysie and Mary were siblings which would mean that Angus's parents were Donald Livingstone and Catherine McPherson. The doubt I have is that my Angus was not alive in 1858 and that it was another Angus and nephew Archibald who were witnesses. Still trying to resolve that one.
If it is the correct Angus, then the last generation would be Donald Livingstone, born c1745 and Catherine McPherson born c1745; married around 1770.
So there you have it. I hope that allows you to place my family in the overall scheme of things. Not too sure if I can mention the name of the researcher at SARS who got me out of the tight spots but she was bloody excellent.
Now back to Killunaig . . . . . . .
Cheers
Terry
Last edited by terryliv2 on Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Killlunaig Burial Ground
Hi again,
Donald,
The Lachlan you found would be the brother of Angus(?), Mary and Mysie. I might have a look for any more siblings.
John,
Yes that was my posting way back when. It was right at the start of my addiction errr quest and not much came from it. I cant remember when that was (2005?) but basically I have added 2 generations to the Livingstones in that time. Thankfully I have had a lot more success with other branches of the family. On the McDiarmid side, Catherine was born in either Morven or Glenmore, depending on which of the census records you believe. No birth record for her either. Her father Angus was born in Glen Lyon in Perthshire and her mother Margaret McDonald in Ardnamurchan. No marriage record but I assume they were married in Ardnamurchan. Between 1851 and 1861 they left Glenmore and went to Ormsaigbeg, Ardnamurchan where they died in 1869 and 1865 respectively.
Yes I have had a lot of correspondence with Bruce Sandison (he's from the US) and Sandy Sandison (he is from Surrey). The Livingstone details and photos they have in their family tree came from me. Hugh McD Livingstone married Mary Ann Jane Sanderson in Grafton, NSW, Australia - they are my Great Grandparents. The Sanderson family came from Banffshire Scotland - but that is a whole new interesting story
Cheers
terry
Donald,
The Lachlan you found would be the brother of Angus(?), Mary and Mysie. I might have a look for any more siblings.
John,
Yes that was my posting way back when. It was right at the start of my addiction errr quest and not much came from it. I cant remember when that was (2005?) but basically I have added 2 generations to the Livingstones in that time. Thankfully I have had a lot more success with other branches of the family. On the McDiarmid side, Catherine was born in either Morven or Glenmore, depending on which of the census records you believe. No birth record for her either. Her father Angus was born in Glen Lyon in Perthshire and her mother Margaret McDonald in Ardnamurchan. No marriage record but I assume they were married in Ardnamurchan. Between 1851 and 1861 they left Glenmore and went to Ormsaigbeg, Ardnamurchan where they died in 1869 and 1865 respectively.
Yes I have had a lot of correspondence with Bruce Sandison (he's from the US) and Sandy Sandison (he is from Surrey). The Livingstone details and photos they have in their family tree came from me. Hugh McD Livingstone married Mary Ann Jane Sanderson in Grafton, NSW, Australia - they are my Great Grandparents. The Sanderson family came from Banffshire Scotland - but that is a whole new interesting story
Cheers
terry
-
Canadian Livingstone
- Posts: 2778
- Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm
Re: Killlunaig Burial Ground
Hi Terry,
Thanks for that info. Yes I do remember the earlier postings about your Livingstons several years ago. Glad to see you have made some progress. It is a tough one.
Hugh's death record from 1900 indicates his father Angus Livingston had been a shepherd as well.
regards,
Donald
Thanks for that info. Yes I do remember the earlier postings about your Livingstons several years ago. Glad to see you have made some progress. It is a tough one.
Hugh's death record from 1900 indicates his father Angus Livingston had been a shepherd as well.
regards,
Donald
Re: Killlunaig Burial Ground
Forum Moderator,
Given that this discussion has moved from the Killunaig Burial Ground to all of my side of the Livingstone family, I was wondering if the subject title should be changed to something reflecting that. Someone browsing the forum for family members are hardly likely to look here under the present topic name. Is it possible?
Terry
Given that this discussion has moved from the Killunaig Burial Ground to all of my side of the Livingstone family, I was wondering if the subject title should be changed to something reflecting that. Someone browsing the forum for family members are hardly likely to look here under the present topic name. Is it possible?
Terry
-
Canadian Livingstone
- Posts: 2778
- Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm
Re: Killlunaig Burial Ground
Hi Terry,
No problem.
I just went to "New" and started a new posting with the title of Angus Livingston and Ann Cameron. That should work.
regards,
Donald
No problem.
I just went to "New" and started a new posting with the title of Angus Livingston and Ann Cameron. That should work.
regards,
Donald
Re: Killlunaig Burial Ground
I have now established the fact that the Angus and Archibald Livingston who witnessed the death certificates for Mysie and Mary Livingstone respectively were not my Angus/Archibald Livingston. This in turn means that Donald and Catherine McPherson were not my Angus's parents. So Mysie and Mary lived very near to Angus and Anne but were not immediately related to them.
As far as the Killunaig question goes, I think this actually adds to the story since we now have two Livingston families, that of Angus and of Donald who made the trek from Ardnamurchan to Killunaig to bury their dead.
Terry Livingstone
As far as the Killunaig question goes, I think this actually adds to the story since we now have two Livingston families, that of Angus and of Donald who made the trek from Ardnamurchan to Killunaig to bury their dead.
Terry Livingstone
-
Kyle MacLea
- Posts: 1043
- Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:54 am
- Location: New Hampshire, USA
- Contact:
Re: Killlunaig Burial Ground
As a note, Terry, we have contact with the descendants of Hugh McDiarmid Livingstone in Australia, if you want to be in touch. There is quite a large family of Livingstones descended from that line!
Let me know if you need the contact info.
As far as moving this thread to a new one with a different title, I can certainly do that any time you like. Just let me know. Currently, the whole thread still has the Burial Ground title. But the search feature will certainly find this thread if the right terms are used. And it is indexed on the 'net, so you will soon see these discussions show up on Google searches.
Kyle=
Let me know if you need the contact info.
As far as moving this thread to a new one with a different title, I can certainly do that any time you like. Just let me know. Currently, the whole thread still has the Burial Ground title. But the search feature will certainly find this thread if the right terms are used. And it is indexed on the 'net, so you will soon see these discussions show up on Google searches.
Kyle=
Kyle S. MacLea
Clan Society Life Member; DNA Project Co-Admin
New Hampshire, USA
kyle -dot- maclea -at- gmail -dot- com
Clan Society Life Member; DNA Project Co-Admin
New Hampshire, USA
kyle -dot- maclea -at- gmail -dot- com
-
Canadian Livingstone
- Posts: 2778
- Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm
Re: Killlunaig Burial Ground
Hi Terry,
Does the Killunaig list refer to a Killunaig cemetery list?
Without tracing the ultimate source of the Killunaig List I cannot real comment on its origin, realiability and accuracy. Are to explain something I dont entirely understand or have not seen. Something strange about this list and the dates. As a rule of thumb I take information like this not from the original record with a bit of caution. That being said I am in support of your notion that Angus Livingston and Ann Cameron are the parents of your Hugh or EWen Livingston. To me sourcing the list and identifying who created this list might help sorting it out. I really believe this to be at least part of the solution. I am not from Western Argyll, Mull or Morvern but I think most people there in the now will likely assume that Killunaig is located on Ross of Mull. I agree its not likely your Livingstons were buried on Ross of Mull at the Killunaig Burial Ground near Pennyghael but I would like to rule that out then I agree you should contact Mull and as you have suggested Morvern experts to help identify where your people are buried. As Archibald died in 1899 in Ardmurchan I wonder where abouts he was buried. Would it have been near Ochle? Where were other presbyterians in the Ocle area buried. I would have thought that Archibald would be buried near his mother and father but I would not know for certain and where they are buried.
Yes I had almost forgot about Lachlan Livingston. The early Ardmurchan record from the early 1800's show little more than a few Livingston couples and before 1811 there are no baptisms of Livingstons and no marriages of Livingstons until a decade later so it appear there werent alot of Livingston families in Ardnamurchan. Angus Livingston and Ann Cameron were and there were a few others that I made a note of. Seems logical that some of these would be related to your Angus. I have a list of the earliest Livingston couples at Ardnamurchan.
I remember the Australian branch of your Livingstons that Kyle is talking about from a few years back.
regards,
Donald
Does the Killunaig list refer to a Killunaig cemetery list?
Without tracing the ultimate source of the Killunaig List I cannot real comment on its origin, realiability and accuracy. Are to explain something I dont entirely understand or have not seen. Something strange about this list and the dates. As a rule of thumb I take information like this not from the original record with a bit of caution. That being said I am in support of your notion that Angus Livingston and Ann Cameron are the parents of your Hugh or EWen Livingston. To me sourcing the list and identifying who created this list might help sorting it out. I really believe this to be at least part of the solution. I am not from Western Argyll, Mull or Morvern but I think most people there in the now will likely assume that Killunaig is located on Ross of Mull. I agree its not likely your Livingstons were buried on Ross of Mull at the Killunaig Burial Ground near Pennyghael but I would like to rule that out then I agree you should contact Mull and as you have suggested Morvern experts to help identify where your people are buried. As Archibald died in 1899 in Ardmurchan I wonder where abouts he was buried. Would it have been near Ochle? Where were other presbyterians in the Ocle area buried. I would have thought that Archibald would be buried near his mother and father but I would not know for certain and where they are buried.
Yes I had almost forgot about Lachlan Livingston. The early Ardmurchan record from the early 1800's show little more than a few Livingston couples and before 1811 there are no baptisms of Livingstons and no marriages of Livingstons until a decade later so it appear there werent alot of Livingston families in Ardnamurchan. Angus Livingston and Ann Cameron were and there were a few others that I made a note of. Seems logical that some of these would be related to your Angus. I have a list of the earliest Livingston couples at Ardnamurchan.
I remember the Australian branch of your Livingstons that Kyle is talking about from a few years back.
regards,
Donald
-
Canadian Livingstone
- Posts: 2778
- Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm
Re: Killlunaig Burial Ground
Hi Terry,
Thought you might be interested in knowing that the forum has been contacted by a descendant of Hugh Livingston 1806-1877 of Porturik,Western Ardnamurchan son of Donald Livingston and Catharine McPherson who was married to another Ann Cameron b. abt. 1811. His death was witnessed by "his brother" Lachlan Livingston b. abt. 1793 and Lachlan LIvingston's death record also indicates his parents were Donald Livingston and Catherine McPherson. This is the Lachlan Livingston that was an agricultural laborer at Glenmore. There were I have discovered Livingstons in Western Ardmurchan going back at least to the 1770's so the subsequent families that resided there in the early 1800's before the 1841 Census could have been related.
regards,
Donald
Thought you might be interested in knowing that the forum has been contacted by a descendant of Hugh Livingston 1806-1877 of Porturik,Western Ardnamurchan son of Donald Livingston and Catharine McPherson who was married to another Ann Cameron b. abt. 1811. His death was witnessed by "his brother" Lachlan Livingston b. abt. 1793 and Lachlan LIvingston's death record also indicates his parents were Donald Livingston and Catherine McPherson. This is the Lachlan Livingston that was an agricultural laborer at Glenmore. There were I have discovered Livingstons in Western Ardmurchan going back at least to the 1770's so the subsequent families that resided there in the early 1800's before the 1841 Census could have been related.
regards,
Donald