Dr. David Livingstone's grandparents

Public Forum for anyone interested in tracing their roots.
Forum rules
Remember that this forum is publicly accessible. Do not share private information that you wish to remain private on the Ancestral Search forum.
Jane M Livingstone
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:57 am

Re: Dr. David Livingstone's grandparents

Post by Jane M Livingstone »

Kyle missed my post (see below), so I reposted so have repeated much of the info, but there is more detail in this one:

Re the John Livingstone from Reudle who married Flora McLean: the Reudle Livingstones are my family. They moved to Mull after Culloden but I cannot work out where they came from before that. I have a family tree that says we are the Livingstones of Appin and that a Duncan, who was at Culloden, married the daughter of McLean of Coll. They left Coll having married against McLean's wishes and went to Mull under the protection of the McLeans of Torloisk (Eachuinn Raoduil?) and were given the mill at Penmore. His son Donald married but died young so the family were raised by MacLucas and settled in Reudle. I have the following information from an old letter, but my dates don't add up:
"David Livingstone was descended from a son of the baron of Bachuil who was wounded at Culloden..... young MacDhunleibhe did not deem Lismore too safe and went to Morven and then to Mull, and finally to Ulva. His son married Catherine MicDhunleibhe whose father was farming in Kerrara. Catherine's father was of the Achnacree family and was at Culloden also. And my information from the Duke of Argyll is that we are descended from Catherine's uncle who settled in Mull after Culloden and whose son married a sister of the young laird of Coll who befriended Johnson and Boswell .."
I have John marrying in 1796, his father Donald but no date, then Duncan marrying daughter of Coll around 1773. I have another piece of paper with a Donald born 1709 as perhaps the father, with a question mark, of Donald who saved the banner and the inference that my family are descended from Donald born 1709.
Anyway, the Lettermore John may not be the same one. The family seemed to be at Penmore, Treshnish, Ensay and Reudle, all pretty much in the same area whereas Lettermore is more over the other side of Mull. The family moved to Tobermory and my grandfather was born there but it was much much later in 1887.
Have I muddied the waters further?
Last edited by Jane M Livingstone on Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Kyle MacLea
Posts: 1043
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:54 am
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Contact:

Re: Dr. David Livingstone's grandparents

Post by Kyle MacLea »

Jane, thanks so much for writing. My apologies on missing your posts and therefore letting you go so long unanswered. I hope others will now read your posts with interest. I know I did!

Kyle=
Kyle S. MacLea
Clan Society Life Member; DNA Project Co-Admin
New Hampshire, USA
kyle -dot- maclea -at- gmail -dot- com
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Dr. David Livingstone's grandparents

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Jane,

If you could refresh my memory with your ancestral line generation by generation from your Livingston great grandfather as far back as you can recall that would be appreciated.

regards,

Donald
User avatar
Kyle MacLea
Posts: 1043
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:54 am
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Contact:

Re: Dr. David Livingstone's grandparents

Post by Kyle MacLea »

Jane--if you could provide even more detail we may be able to be more helpful? Any particular parts you'd like covered, Donald?

Kyle=
Kyle S. MacLea
Clan Society Life Member; DNA Project Co-Admin
New Hampshire, USA
kyle -dot- maclea -at- gmail -dot- com
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Dr. David Livingstone's grandparents

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Kyle,

No grandparents, great grandparents, great-great grandparents, great-great-great grandparents, birth dates and location where born/ lived from her Livingston family line will be fine to get me started or restarted as the case may be. Id like to work my way back in time from one generation to the next. FOr me not familiar with Janes family tree if we work with generation by generation.

I recall John Livingston of Reudle, Mull had a son John Livingston baptised February 2, 1799 his wife listed simply as McLean. I assume that is Flora Mclean as subsequent baptisms with the parents being John Livingston or Levingston and Flora Mclean of neighbouring village of Kilninian next to Reudle (see a detailed map of mull) and a FLora Mclean Just to complicate things there was another John Livingston married to a FLora Maclean that lived in Morvern Parish at the same time but the baptisms of their children seem to indicate they are a different family. There are some theories regarding this Reudle John Livingston family I think out there but here is what I found in the baptismal records regarding John Livingston and FLora Mclean of Mull. I assume this family moved to the adjacent village of Kilninian near Reudle not to be confused the name of the parish of Kilninian and Kilmore.

John Livingston/Levingston of Reudle,Kilninian and Kilmore Parish married Flora McLean December 27 1796

Mull Baptisms of children of a John Livingston and Flora Mclean
John Livingston and___ McLean of Reudle John Livingston 17/02/1799
John Levingston and Flora Mclean of Kilninian Alexander Levingston 06/06/1802
John Levingston and FLora Mclean of Kilninian Catharine Levingston 19/07/1804
John Levingston and Flora Mclean of Kilninian Elizabeth Levingston 13/07/1806
John Livingston and FLora Mclean of Kilninian Duncan Livingston 04/02/1810
(It would seem to me from the original baptismal records then that the John Livingston who married Flora Mclean in fact had sons)
(There is no proof that this is the John Livingston b.1777 at Lettermore,Mull whom is suspected of being an Uncle of Dr. David Livingstone, though to my mind it is the only one that seems to fit. Lettermore near Tobermory, Reudle and Kilninian which were all in Kilninian Parish. Dr. Livingstone's grandparents Neil Livingston and Mary Morrison were briefly at Lettermore before residing on the Island of Ulva which was also a part of Kilninian Parish.

Morvern Parish Baptisms Parents John Livingston and Flora Maclean but apparently not the same family)
John Livingston and FLora Maclean Archibald Livingston 24/02/1807
John Livingston and Flora Maclean Elizabeth Livingston 14/08/1808
John Livingston and Flora Maclean John Livingston 10/10/1810



regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Dr. David Livingstone's grandparents

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Jane,

You may have posted info on your family tree prior to August but if you could provide the name of your great grandfather and where he resided in Kilninian Parish. I assume that if your father was born in the Tobermory area that your family lived in this part of Mull for some time. If you provide us with the full name of your grandfather,who was born at Tobermory in 1887, great-grandfather and great-great grandfather as we can trace the family in the 19th century census and 18th and 19th century parish records which will help us to better understand and follow your ancestral line.

regards,

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Historian
Maclea Livingstone Society
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Dr. David Livingstone's grandparents

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Jane,

My best guess is that your grandfather born in Tobermory in the year 1887 is almost certainly Donald Livingston born August 25, 1887 at Churchyard Street, Tobermory, Mull to Donald Livingston joiner by occupation and his wife Janet McIntyre. Donald's baptismal record also states that his parents Donald Livingston and Jane McIntyre were married June 10th 1872 in Glasgow. The marriage record however states they married on June 7th, 1872 in Blythwood District, Burgh or City of Glasgow. Their marriage record lists them as both at the time of their marriage residents of Glasgow. Donald Livingston age 28 Joiner/Journeyman is recorded as the son of Alexander Livingston farmer and his wife Elizabeth Mclean. His wife Janet? or Jane McIntyre age 23 is recorded as the daughter of Duncan McIntyre Mason/Journeymanand his wife Mary Campbell.

1881 Census Tobermory Family residing on Shore Street
Donald Livingstone age 35 b. abt. 1846? Joiner birth place Rhendle, Argyllshire ( I assume that is Reudle in Kilninian and Kilmore Parish, Mull)
Jane Livingstone age 31 birthplace Ardchattan, Argyllshire
Elizabeth age 10 born Glasgow, Lanarkshire
John age 6 born Ballachulish, Argyllshire
Duncan age 4 Kilninian, Argyllshire
Alexander age 1 born Tobermory, Mull, Argyllshire

1891 Census Tobermory , Argyllshire Donald Livingston Family residing on High Street
Donald Livingston (absent from Census)
Jane Livingston age 41
Duncan age 14
Alick age 11
Mary age 9
Neil age 7
Donald age 3 (your grandfather I presume?)


1881 Census Kilninian and Kilmore Parish,Argyllshire residing at Kilninian Cottage
Alexander Livingstone age 77 born abt. 1804 Kilninian and Kilmore parish occupation Cottar
Mary Livingstone age 32
(Alexander Livingstone widower died March 30 1886 age 82 at Kilninian in Kilninian and Kilmore. His parents recorded at the time of his death were John Livingston crofter and Flora Maclean. His son Donald reported his death.)


1871 Census Kilninian and Kilmore Parish,Argyllshire Renille ?
Alexr Levingstone age 67 born abt. 1804 Kilninian, Argyllshire
Elizabeth age 60 born abt. 1811 Uloa? Argyllshire
Mary age 20 b. Kilninian


1861 Census Kilninian and Kilmore Parish, Argyllshire Raodul (probably Reudle)
ALexander Livingston age 56 born abt. 1805 Kilninian,Argyllshire Farmer (your great-great grandfather?)
Elizabeth Livingston age 51 born abt. 1810 Kilninian,Argyllshire ( Elizabeth Mclean according to Donald's 1872 marriage record)
Donald age 18 born abt. 1843 Kilninian,Argyllshire (your great-grandfather?)
John age 16 born abt. 1845
Mary age 14 born abt. 1847

1851 Census Kilninian and Kilmore Parish, Argyllshire Village of Raodul (probably Reudle)
Alexr Livingston age 48 born abt. 1803 Kilninian, Argyllshire farmer on 15 acres
Elizabeth age 40 born abt. 1811 Kilninian, Argyllshire
Flory age 10 born Kilninian, Argyllshire
Donald age 8 born abt. 1843 Kilninian,Argyllshire
John age 6
Mary age 4
Isabella age 1
Mary Livingston age 34 born abt. 1817 Kilninian, Argyllshire sister
Neil Mckinnon age 20 (note that Neil is a McKinnon and possibly a cousin of Alexander Livingston on his mother 's side as I believe Flora Mclean's mother was a Flora Mckinnon who married a Hector Mclean of Reudle.

1841 Census Kilninian and Kilmore Parish Redale (Reudle I presume)
ALexa (Alexander) Livingston age 30 (this is probably not the correct age)
Eliza age 25
Flora age 1
Duncan age 25 (this is probably Alexander's younger brother Duncan but again the age is incorrect.)
Mary Mclean age 12


Having got this far so far I will make the leap of faith that Alexander Livingston of Raodle or Reudle, Kilninian and Kilmore Parish born somewhere around 1803 according to the 1851 Census is the Alexander Levingston of Kilninian Parish, baptised June 6th 1802 son of John Livingston and Flora Mclean of |Reudle and Kilninian, Kilninian and Kilmore Parish. I also suspect that John Livingston's wife Flora Mclean was actually Flora Mclean baptised 02/03/1777 in Kilninian and Kilmore Parish the daughter of Hector Mclean and Flora Mckinnon of Redal or Reudle. Redal was quite clear from the original baptismal record.

There is no doubt that you are descended from John Livingston and FLora Mclean that lived at Reudle and neighbouring Kilninian in Kilninian and Kilmore Parish in the 1790's and early 1800's. IN regards to your questions the John Livingston b. 1777 at Lettermore, in Kilninian and Kilmore Parish seemed a plausible candidate to be the John Livingston who married Flora McLean at Reudle. If so you would be descended from an Uncle of Dr. David Livingstone I would suspect. So far DNA testing done on a documented great nephew of Dr. David Livingstone indicates that the Livingstons from Ulva were not related to the Bachuil Livingstones as was believed by Scottish historian Alexander Carmichael in the early 1900's. If these test results are to be accepted then you may be related to Dr. Livingstone's family but not Baron Livingstone's family.

One approach I would suggest to better indentifying the possible origins of your ancestor John Livingston of Reudle and Kilninian and his ancestors would be have one your Livingston family members a Livingston male DNA tested to indentify through the male Livingston Y chromosome and marker results which Western Argyll Livingston family already tested your Livingston family is a close match with. This is the test which the Maclea Livingstone Society has been undertaking for the past five years through its Genealogy DNA Project. As a signifcant number of Livingstons of Western Argyllshire ancestry including a great nephew of Dr. David Livingstone, the Bachuil LIvingstons and other Livingstons with a connection to Western Argyll have participated in the Maclea Livingstone DNA Project this testing is a very promising means to help link Livingston families and resolve some questions about their possible family origins.

I suspect much of this info you have already discovered regarding your Kilninian and Kilmore Parish Livingston family, but hopefully there is something in here that is of some help to your family research. Certainly it was helpful for me to start from scratch and trace your family line to be able to better understand the challenges of researching the Reudle Livingstons.


Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Historian
Maclea Livingstone Society
Jane M Livingstone
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:57 am

Re: Dr. David Livingstone's grandparents

Post by Jane M Livingstone »

Wow! Thanks for all that, Donald. I do have most of that information already - in fact, have visited Reudle (now in ruins) and have seen Alexander's (my gg grandfather) grave at the churchyard down the road. The family moved from Reudle to Tobermory before my grandfather was born. Apparently, his father, Donald, (my g grandfather) set up a butcher's shop and dairy in Tobermory. Donald did get married in Glasgow (he ran away from Mull and became a joiner, and also went to Canada twice according to my aunt) to Jane McIntyre, who I believe was from Ballachulish, but they seemed to have moved back to Reudle. If I remember correctly, the eldest child was born in Glasgow, then the next was born in Ballachulish, then after that they were born in Reudle until my grandfather. My brother is in the DNA project - number 21629. He has had a lot of markers (64, I think) done but they are inconclusive. It is the connections before John Livingstone who married Flora McLean that I cannot find (so the Lettermore possibility is interesting). Someone in the family tried all this many years ago and they couldn't get anything definitive before John either. There was a lot of speculation, but my grandfather's brother was in contact with Argyll who gave him some information. A family tree that I was given by my aunt and that was constructed from this great uncle's information, had John's father as a Donald who married Mary McKinnon. This Donald apparently died young so the family were raised by MacLucas. This seems to be when they went to Reudle. Before that, it was a Duncan who was supposedly at Culloden and who married the daughter of McLean of Coll. When they went to Mull, they were given the mill at Penmore by a McLean, possibly Torloisk. I would love to find out more, but it seems to be a dead end.
Jane M Livingstone
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:57 am

Re: Dr. David Livingstone's grandparents

Post by Jane M Livingstone »

Another thing - an old letter said we were related to Dr Livingstone by marriage only - through Catherine????
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Dr. David Livingstone's grandparents

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

HI Jane,

We appreciate you contacting the Maclea Livingstone Society with your request for help on your Mull Livingstone family mystery. As I have been researching Dr. David Livingstone's kin continuing to trying to sort out myth from reality your posts on the forum have been timely. There is perhaps no greater challenge than trying to gather conclusive evidence as to a possible family connection to Dr. David Livingstone. We have been contacted by a number of people who believe they are related to the famous missionary explorer.Many of us whom are of highland Livingstone or Livingston family origin have heard stories from an elderly family member of a possible family connection to Dr. David Livingstone's family including my own Morvern Livingston family. Most of this information proves to be incorrect or at least without any compelling evidence. That being said as Clan Historian I make it a top priority to do a through investigation of any and all claims by Livingstons who visit our forum with claims that they may be related to Dr. Livingstone.

Regarding John Livingston b. 1777 at Lettermore, Mull, Uncle of Dr David Livingstone there is next to no documented information as is the case for the most part with Dr. Livingstone's other Uncles Charles, Duncan and Donald. Compounding the problem there is even some disagreement as to whether Dr. Livingstone had three Uncles or four. There is a bit of dispute regarding Donald or Duncan. A good part of this problem is that Dr Livingstone was very brief in his discussion of his family and their history in his auto-biographical account of his life published in the 1850's. Dr. Livingstone mentioned that his Uncles served in the Navy and Army during the Napoleonic Wars and not much else. We know from his early biographer William Blaikie in the 1880's that Livingstone's Uncle CHarles was a promising young clerk working for the Monteith family in Glasgow that owned the Mill the Livingstone family had worked at in nearby Blantyre when he was pressed into service in the British Navy during the Napoleonic War and soon after died at sea. As for the other Uncles JOhn, Donald and Duncan I have not seen any information on their military career or their subsequent life and some have gone as far as to suggest that none of Dr. Livingstone's Uncle's survived the Napoleonic War. We have approximate birth dates from the Kilninian Kilmore baptism records for some of them and other dates which are probably speculative. One of Dr. Livingstone's great grandson David Livingstone Wilson produced an excellent family tree in the 1980's of Dr. Livingstone's father's family line however he like the rest of us appears to have been in the dark regarding the family of these mysterious Uncles of Dr. Livingstone.

As your brother is in our DNA project as you mentioned and is not apparently a match to one of Dr. LIvingstone's documented great nephews whom we tested a few years ago, I would suspect that your family is probably not related to Neil Livingston and Mary MOrrison's son John Livingston b. 1777 at Lettermore. DOcumented evidence in the form of a 1890's letter from Dr. Livingstone's elderly brother John Livingston of Listowel, ONtario Canada states that Dr Livingstone's grandparents were according to his older brother Neil Livingston and Mary Morrison of Mull and later Blantyre, Lanarkshire.

regards,

Donald
Post Reply