James Livingston

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James Livingston

Postby deblivingstone » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:32 pm

Thank you for giving me access to the forum. My husband & myself are at a roadblock tracing his particular Livingstone line.
James Livingston was born Feb 1810 on the Isle of Mull on the west coast of Scotland. He married Mary McMillan May 15, 1842 in the parish of Colonsay & Oronsay. This marriage was also recorded in the parish of Jura. James' father was thought to be Alexander Livingston and there was a brother Hugh Livingston. This information was supplied by a granddaughter of James in the 1930's.
James Livingston & Mary McMillan had a daughter Ann Livingston who was born Feb 7, 1843 and was christened June 18, 1843 in the parish of Colonsay.
Within months, they had emigrated to Canada & first settled in Eldon Township, Victoria County, Ontario before settling in Arthur Township, Wellington County, Ontario. James Livingston was a weaver by trade and a Presbyterian in religion. James died Dec 23, 1894 in Arthur Township, Wellington County, Ontario. A death certificate could not be located to determine parents.
Mary McMillan was born in Colonsay in Apr, 1824 and died Jan 5, 1910 Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Their family is as follows:

Ann Livingston- b. Feb 7, 1843 Scotland
Margaret Livingston- b. Feb 10, 1845 Ontario, Canada
Katherine Livingston- b.Sept 19, 1846 Ontario
Duncan M. Livingston- b. May 29, 1848 Ontario
Mary Livingston- b. July 13, 1850 Ontario
Jane Livingston- b. Jan 12, 1853 Ontario
Donald D. Livingston- b. Jan 21, 1855 Ontario - also known as Daniel
Angus Livingston- b. Feb 9, 1857 Ontario
Bessie Livingston- b. Apr 7, 1860 Ontario
James A. Livingston- b. Sept 14, 1865 Ontario

In later generations, some of the family adopted the "e" to Livingston. Some say it was to lay claim to fame to Dr. David Livingstone as a relative.
We would like to determine the parents and any siblings of James Livingston & Mary McMillan. We have much information on the descendants in Canada but very little in Scotland.
Any of this sound familiar to anyone?

Thank you in advance,
Deb Livingstone
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:47 pm

Hi Deb,
Welcome to the Maclea Livingstone Forum.
Glad to hear that you have your Canadian Livingston research done.
The Scottish birth, baptism and marriage records prior to the 1850's arent as detailed as later family records and so it often presents a little more of challenge at times to determine family ancestral line. We will see what we can determine regarding yours. I can see that in terms of your scottish family connection you have been able to determine that your ancestor James Livingston and his wife Mary McMillian were married and lived for time in Colonsay Parish before in the 1840's settled in Ontario, Canada as did many other highland Livingstons in the 1800's. An excellent starting point but obviously you want to go farther back in your highland Livingston line. One quick question to start things going. How did you determine from the Scottish records that James was born in Mull and not say Colonsay Parish or did you have some preexisting family information to that effect?

regards,

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Historian
Clan Maclea Livingstone
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Re: James Livingston

Postby deblivingstone » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:48 am

The birth location of James Livingston was passed down from an earlier history written by a granddaughter of James in the 1930's and is quoted as follows:

"Much of the following information was given to me by my father, Duncan Livingstone, some years before his death in 1941. His father was James Livingstone, son of Alexander Livingstone of Scotland, and he, James Livingstone, was born on the Isle of Mull on the west coast of Scotland, in February, 1810."

Also, his gravestone, across the bottom, says " Natives of Islay Argylshire, Scotland"

Deb
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:13 am

Hi Debbie,

I see as you said that James Livingston lived in Arthur Township, Wellington County North. Located him in the 1871 Ontario Canada Census there where he is recorded as age 54 or born abt. 1817 or 1816 a weaver by occupation. I also noticed that a marriage record for his daughter Bessie in 1886 which records parents of Bessie as James Livingston and Mary McMillan. Did they live near Mount Forest in Arthur Township by any chance?

To my way of thinking this James Livingston in the 1841 census is the best candidate to be your ancestor but he is not born in 1810 as your Dad stated however. There is James Livingston born abt. 1816 according the 1841 Scottish census who is living in the 1841 Census with his parents Angus Livingston a napoleonic war veteran of Mull origin and his wife Margaret. This James I think we are pretty certain was born at Mull though not born in 1810 as your father indicated. We have a Livingston expert on this family who is a descendant of this Angus Livingston and Margaret whom I can ask about this James. Dont know that ANgus and Margaret's son however settled in Canada but he may know something about this. In any event I will ask this gentleman to rule out this James born abt. 1816 in Mull living on Jura in 1841 as your ancestor. I think he left Jura sometime after 1841 so I want to check out the possiblity that this son of Angus and Margaret is not the James Livingston that married Mary McMillan the following year in Colonsay. Here is the other reason why I want to be sure about this one. CHeck the names of others living with James and his parents at Jura in 1841:

Jura Argyll 1841 Census
Angus Livingston age 60 (believed to born in Mull according to family researchers that have contacted us in the past) (Not Alexander)
Margaret age 55
James 25 abt. 1816 (believed to be born in Mull) (not born in 1810 as previously thought by the family in Canada)
Hugh 20 (the brother Hugh your family recalled) (did he also settle in Canada?)
Ann 15
Jen 11
Malcolm Macmillan 25
Duncan Macmillan 6 months
Christina Macmillan 25
Curiously the Colonsay marriage records have one other Livingston who married in the 1840-1842 period and that is a Christy Livingston on 26 01 1840 to none other than a malcolm Macmillan. Then of course your information that your ancestor James married Mary MacMillan on 15/04/1842 It almost looks for certain from the 1841 Jura Angus Livingston census info and this connecting Colonsay Mcmillan Livngston marriage info that your ancestor is actually James Livingston the son of Angus Livngston and his wife Margaret




Several Macmillan families show up in the Colonsay records in the 1820's. Some probably related. Little doubt that your ancestor Mary MacMillan was from these Colonsay MacMillan I would think. This may not be your Mary McMillan mentioned above but she was definitely connected to one of the Colonsay McMillan families in the records. I am definitely sure and that Malcolm Livingson that shows up with James son of ANgus is her cousin or brother. And the fact that MacMillans from Colonsay were living with a James Livngston born 1816 in Mull living in Jura with his fahter ANgus and mother Margaret is no coincidence. I know who that Malcolm MacMillan and Christy (Livingston) MacMillan living with the Livingstons at Jura in 1841 are from the Colonsay marriage and that they were married the previous year apparently having by 1841 a young infant. So here is what I think

Your ancestor James Livingston was born abt. 1816 in one of the parishes of Mull the son of ANgus Livingston a Napoleonic War vet and his wife Margaret who lived early on at Mull but by the time of the 1841 census are at Jura. This James born abt. 1816 apparently knew the MacMillans of Colonsay one of whom a Malcolm McMillan lived for a time with his father ANgus Livingston at Jura in 1841 following his wedding to Christy Llivington in 1840. Christy may be a daughter of ANgus and Margaret and likely a sister of your ancestor James. James then went back to Colonsay where he wed a McMillan by the name of Mary. HOw she is related to Malcolm MacMillan is not too important at the moment and I dont know exactly. But she is someway. Then we know that James and Mary have a child born in 1843. From there the Canadian records you found indicate that there subsequent children born i the 1840's were born in Ontario Canada which suggests that they left for Ontario Canada before 1845. So if I am correct ANgus Livingston's son and his wife do not appear in the 1851 Scottish census.

So I realize this challenges the notion of your DaD that James was born in 1810 but I believe I concurs with his notion that James was born at Mull. The Islay info on the tombstone I cant explain but there could be an explanation for it. I think that this family may have left Jura I as I understand and possibly the Isle of Islay was one location where they went. Anyways I am pretty certain this James listed with his father at Jura is the same James Livingston that married Mary McMillan in Colonsay and settled in Arthur township, Wellington North County. Ontario. I am almost 100 percent certain.

regards,

Donald
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Re: James Livingston

Postby deblivingstone » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:04 pm

Hi Donald,
I had seen that particular census of Angus Livingston of 1841 and wondered at the time if this was the connection. Also, I have an obituary of Mary McMillan which states "...Deceased whose maiden name was Mary McMillan, was born in the Highlands of Scotland about 86 years ago. She was married to James Livingston there in May 1842. Next year they came to Canada...There are living also a brother, Mr. Malcolm McMillan, Toronto, and a sister, Mrs Thos. Vogan, Wiarton (Ontario)..." Source: Mount Forest Confederate Jan 13, 1910.
I haven't been able to find anything on Malcolm McMillan in Toronto. There seemed to be so many...
I did find a Mrs Thos. Vogan in Wiarton in the 1901 Ontario Census. Her name was Annie and it lists her birthdate as June 8, 1845. I found a marriage register with a marriage date of Oct 5, 1896 to a Thomas Vogan and Annie McMillan. Her estimated birth year on this record says about 1852 in Scotland. Parents are listed as Donald McMillan and Catherine McMillan.
Arthur Tp, Wellington Co, Ontario borders on one edge of Mount Forest, Ontario. (Where I also live) and the older Livingstons did remain here for the duration.
Also, if Angus Livingston is James' father, and not Alexander, it would fit especially with naming patterns. There are no Alexanders while there are a few Angus's.
Regards,
Deb
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Re: James Livingston

Postby jmlivingstone » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:29 pm

Hi Deb / Donald,

Just a few thoughts/questions I had,

1. You will see somewhere on this forum that I reckon the ages given on the 1841 census are quite a bit out, this could possibly bring dob for James to around 1811/13, probably never know if this theory is correct. I think sometimes ages were guessed at, given the number of people who couldn't read or write.

2. I spoke to a lady who reckons Hugh & his son Duncan emigrated to Canada, no indication if other family members were with them, Duncan was around 13 year old. Duncan later falsified his age to join the Black Watch of Canada, he later moved to Michigan area.

3. You have a James A. Livingstone, is the 'A' for Angus, there is a James Angus Livingstone, born abt. 1832 I believe, son of John Livingstone & Agnes Edmiston. If the 'A' is for Angus, it would pretty much back up what Donald has previously figured out regarding your James.

So far I had been unable to track Angus, Margaret or James down after 1841, possibly Angus & Margaret also went to Canada. Some family members definitely crossed to Islay, my g/father was born there, Hugh & Ann went to Glasgow, Ann died in Glasgow as a pauper, after signing her death certificate, Hugh & family disappeared, probably to Canada.
Hugh was also involved in the weaving industry, as a manufacturer of equipment for the industry.

I know we had family in Canada, I've got vague memories when I was young in the late 50s, of relatives, possibly cousins of my father visiting us, almost certain it was two brothers, I believe they were flight engineers with Air Canada.

As far as the spelling of Livingstone goes, I think it depended purely on how the person writing the name thought it should be spelled, on my fathers birth cert., there is no 'e', on mines there is an 'e'.

I think Donald is correct in what he has suggested regarding James, unfortunately, James is one member of the family I have no previous knowledge of, he does not actually appear anywhere until 1841.

My family tree is on the forum, somewhere in ''Randomly Acquired Information'', hopefully it may be of some interest or assistance to you,

John
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:07 pm

Hi John and Debbie,

It all just sort fell together for me late last night after 12 midnight and I worked on it till 1:30 Am as the obvious became reality for me.

Here are the pieces I put together regarding James Livingston and Mary Macmillan who came to Ontario Canada in the 1840's and were Living later in Arthur Township, Wellington North County, Ontario Canada according to Canadian census info. Didnt have access at the moment to alot of Canadian info on James but as you can see below with Debs info and what located below I knew we were on the right track as our right James Livingston and his wife Mary Macmillan in Canada and earlier in the Scottish records.

1. 1871 Ontario Census places a James Livingston age 54 born abt. 1817 or 1816 weaver as Deb mentioned at Arthur Township, Wellington North, Ontario Canada . Debs canadian census info mentions that the oldest child was born in Scotland as the Scottish record indicated in 1843 and that the subsequent children shortly after that were born in Canada so that also helps us to determine that probably left for Canada by the mid 1840's presumingly from Colonsay. The tombstone stating the family was from Islay may be a mistake and perhaps Islay was mistaken by a family member for Colonsay. Dont know but whatever the reason we have the surviving scottish records to verify where we do know they actually lived at the time we located them. It is John's understanding that Angus was originally from Mull and seems that both James and Hugh were llikely born in Mull and then the family moved later to Jura and or Colonsay. Perhaps they were also on Islay at some point. Dont know about that but I am pretty certain from John's research that the father ANgus Livingston origins were from a parish in Mull, Argyllshire.

2. In 1886 Bessie Livingston listed as a daughter of James Livingston and Mary Macmillian married John Bonner in Arthur Township, Wellington North, Ontario Canada

3. Then I went back to the Scottish census and since I knew from Debs info and the Scotland People info that James Livingston and a Mary Macmillian had married at Colonsay Parish in 1842 I assumed that there was a very good chance that I would find her ancestor James Livingston prior to his marriage possibly still residing with his parents and family whereever he was living a year earlier. Sure enough there was a James Livingston age 25 single birth estimated at about 1816 which fit nicely with the 1871 Ontario Canada info on Debs ancestor James Livington but what stunned me even more was that a living with James his brothers and sisters, father Angus b. 1780 and mother Margaret Livingston was a obviously newly married couple Malcolm and Christy Macmillian with a young newborn. Now that in itself was a pretty good indication that this was the right Jame Livingston who married a year later in 1842 a Mary Macmillan of Colonsay. But even beter having checked Macmillan marriages on Colonsay when looking at Livingston marriages I discovered that there was an interesting marriage record of one other Livingston a Christy Livingston in 1840 who at Colonsay had surprisingly to me also married a Macmillan in this case you guessed Malcolm Macmillian. So by the time later when I checked the 1841 for a 1817 or 1816 James Livingston in Argyll County and this Jura Area Livingston family I already knew exactly who the Mr and Mrs Macolm Macmillan were who residing with Debs ancestor James, his brother Hugh, his parents Old ANgus Livingston b. 1780 the war vet and his mom Margaret Livingston.

4. Finally I also realized to my joy that through Debby contacting the forum and a bit of digging on my own with the help of her info I had found precisely what happened to ANgus and Margaret Livingston of Jura's son Hugh born abt. 1816 and in the process discovered another piece in the family puzzle of Angus and Margaret Livingston of Jura circa 1841 a family we have discussing at length at the forum since JOhn Livingston contacted me regarded James younger brother Hugh his ancestral connection to him. So if I understand correctly Debbie is connected to Angus and Margaret's older son James and John to the son Hugh Livingston.

Hope this makes sense as it was a bit late last night when I started writing the earlier posting.

John do you think then that all signs are that Hugh the younger brother also emigrated to Canada possibly in the 1840's as well. I also sound like from Deb is saying is that this Malcolm Mackenzie who we understand to be James and Hugh brother in law with his wife Christy Livingston probably their sister must of also emigrated to Canada. Well now I guess I just have to keep a lookout for a Hugh Livingston in Canadian records about the presumed age of Hugh from the 1841 Census if that is the case. Anyways thats for the future.


I am not 100% certain that James was born in 1816 or 1817 by any means but so far a comparsion of the Scottish 1841 census info on James the 1871 Ontario Canada Census indicates a possible birth date of abt. 1816 I think. I will check what the other census records in ONtario state. Anyways I am almost 100 percent certain that Deb's ancestor who came to Ontario Canada in the mid 1840's is Hugh's older brother.

regards,

Donald
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Kyle MacLea » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:54 am

Wow. The pieces seem to have fallen together beautifully. I'd like to hear what everyone thinks of Donald's assembly of this disparate information into a cohesive whole. I, for one, am impressed. Not sure if everything is 100% on, but it appears to make quite a bit of sense.

Kyle=
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:02 am

Hi Debbie and John,
Is it possible that Mary McMillan born abt. 1824 who married James Livington at Colonsay in 1842 and her brother Malcolm Livington born abt. 1816? were instead born at Bowmore Parish, on the Isle of Islay. Isle of Islay was mentioned on a family tombstone I am told.
Ok I could not find Malcolm McMillan born abt. 1816 and a sister Mary McMillan born abt. 1824 together in the Colonsay Parish records but interestingly I did find a brother and sister Malcolm McMillan born 24/11/1817 and Mary McMillan born 07/05/1824 born in Bowmore Parish, Isle of Islay to parents Archibald McMillan and Flora Mcfayden which given that Islay Parish is mysteriously mentioned on the family tombstone in Canada may indicate that Mary McMillan (Mrs James Livingston was in fact born there rather than Colonsay where we do now James Livingston and his wife Mary McMillan or Macmillan were married in 1842. With all these movements and connections of the family to different parishes in Argyllshire it would be easy enough for next of kin to get a little mixed up as exactly who was born or lived where when it came time to create a James Livingston- Mary Macmillan family tombstone in the late 1800's in Ontario, Canada.

DId Mary McMillan's death record in Canada list her parents names by any chance? MOst Ontario death records do not list parents name until around the period of the first world war and thereafter I seem to recall.

regards,

Donald
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:59 pm

Hi Kyle,
I think maybe this info may to makes things clearer regarding James Livingston b. abt. 1816 of Arthur Township, North Wellington COunty, Ontario Canada who was married to Mary Macmillan and you can see how I connected this James Livingston to the James Livingston residing with Angus Livingston b.1780 and his wife Margaret at Urisaig, Jura, Argyllshire recorded in the 1841 Scottish Census. This was the Angus Livingston the Napoleonic veteran of the British Army who as we have discussed before via John Livingston of Scotland who is descended from the son Hugh born in 1819 in Mull. But back to James livington.

Firstly, Debbie located this obituary for James Livingston's wife who was Mary McMillan published at the time of her death in 1910
deblivingstone wrote:Hi Donald,
I had seen that particular census of Angus Livingston of 1841 and wondered at the time if this was the connection. Also, I have an obituary of Mary McMillan which states "...Deceased whose maiden name was Mary McMillan, was born in the Highlands of Scotland about 86 years ago. She was married to James Livingston there in May 1842. Next year they came to Canada...There are living also a brother, Mr. Malcolm McMillan, Toronto, and a sister, Mrs Thos. Vogan, Wiarton (Ontario)..." Source: Mount Forest Confederate Jan 13, 1910.
Regards,
Deb


Next let us jump to the 1841 Scottish census info of Angus Livingston b. 1780
Urisaig,Jura, Argyllshire 1841 Census
Angus Livingston age 60
Margaret Livingston age 55
James Livingston age 25
Hugh Livingston age 20
Ann Livingston age 15
Jen Livingston age 11
Malcolm Macmillan age 25
Christina Macmillan age 25
Duncan Macmillan age 6 months

Now we go back a year earlier 1840 to the Colonsay parish records we find that sure enough a Malcolm Macmillan married a Christy Macmillan 2/01/1840
Also a year after the 1841 Census we find one other Livingston marriage record in the Colonsay parish records none other that of a James Livingston who married Mary Macmillan May 15, 1842.

regards,

Donald
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