James Livingston

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Jewel
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:04 am

Re: James Livingston

Post by Jewel »

Hi Donald,
Just wanted to compliment you on the great work you have done on Debbie and John's Livingstone family.
To have all of the information such as names, dates, places and the census records and such is what genealogy is based on, but to find those little bits of information, those little things that are there, but don't jump out to you at first, are what I think, remarkable work. Bravo to you.

Jewel
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Jewel,

Hope you had a good Christmas. Thanks for all that but quite often folks like Debbie, John and yourself have done extensive Livingston family research without my help. If people reach a point in their Livingston family research where they need or want additional input or feedback from another person I just try to be of some assistance if I can.

I must admit I do devote alot of time to genealogy, but have tried to keep up with history related aspects of the Macleas and Livingstones since I have been on the scene. One might that we would run of things to discuss of a Maclea and Livingstone nature at the forum but just when you think things might be slowing down here we get contacted by another Livingston in various stages of working on their family history research.

I am as you can tell very happy that we have established a likely family link between Debbie's highland Livingston family that settled in Wellington North County, Ontario, Canada and John's Livingston's family back in Scotland. On the face it looks like Debbie's ancestor James born abt. 1816 is the son of Angus and Margaret Livingston and is definitely living with Angus and Margaret and their family including their son Hugh who is John Livingston's ancestor. But of course living with old Angus and margaret Livingston at Jura does not in itself prove definitely that James is a son of Angus or brother of Hugh though I would think it very likely they are family some sort particlary since the 1841 Jura Census also shows Jame's future brother in law Malcolm Macmilllan and his wife Christy Livingston is also living with Angus Livingston in 1841 which would be especially odd all lliving with old ANgus Livingston at Urisaig, Jura if there was no close family connection. Anyways it all here in these postings. Take a look at what we have so far. Debbie and John have been very helpful at trying to sort this possible family connection out and ultimately I would no nothing about ANgus Livingston b. 1775 or 1780 of Mull and later Jura and his family without John and Debbie's contributions. Ultimately it has been teamwork and some luck more than anything. What were the chances that I would find Debbie's ancestor James Livingston b.1816 living with a Malcolm Mcmillan and with old ANgus Livingston the Napoleonic war veteran who lived in Jura in 1841. Although I had seen that record a hundred times before it was Debbie that brought my attention to fact that her James Livingston who the Canadian census records stated was born abt. 1817 or 1816 in Scotland was married to a Mary MacMillan which then I then remembered when I came across a Malcolm Macmillan married at Colonsay in 1840 to Christy Livingston and of course the 1841 census record of Angus Livingston with listed a James Livingston b.1816 along with a newly married Malcolm Macmillan and his wife CHristina McMillan or Christy. Bingo I said there are Debbies relatives living alongside John's. ANd then I knew we had something of significance.

As I have noted Mrs James Livingstons' obituary from Mount Forest, Ontario in 1910 clearly states that Mrs James Livingston (Mary Macmilan) had a brother none other than Malcolm Macmillan who interestingly also settled in Ontario, Canada according to the obituary . Also very signficantly the obituary also states that Mary Mcmillan married her husband James Livingston in May of 1842 which checks out with the Colonsay Parish record information and marriage record there. So there is no doubt in my mind that this is the James Livingston that with his wife Mary Mcmillan was connected to Jura and Colonsay in Argyllshire and whom came to Ontario, Canada in the mid 1840's following the birht of thier first child in 1843 in Colonsay. This family as the Census and other Ontario records state later lived in Arthur Township near Mount Forest in Wellington North County, Ontario, Canada. Let me know if you see James born abt. 1816 or 1817 and his wife Mary in the 1881 or other Ontario census records. They first settled in Eldon township,Victoria County, Ontario but I am not certain how long they were there. I found them at least by the 1871 census living in Arthur township, North Wellington County, Ontario Canada.

regards,

Donald
deblivingstone
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by deblivingstone »

1. James Livingston & his family first settled in Eldon Township, Victoria County, Ontario after immigration in 1843. If you look at the 1851 Census of Canada West, Eldon Tp, Victoria Co, they settled in a place where a lot of Scottish immigrants had already settled. I wonder if there would be a family connection. I didn't see any Livingston names but there were a couple of McMillan/McMullan families there. It would make sense that they would go to a place where they would know people. James & his family were living there in 1851 (census wasn't actually taken until Jan 1852) They moved to Arthur Tp, Wellington Co, at some point in 1852 as their 6th child Jane was born there in Jan 1853.

2. As I mentioned in an earlier posting, Mary McMillan's obituary states that at the time of her death in 1910, she had a brother Malcolm living in Toronto and a sister Mrs Thos. Vogan of Wiarton, Ontario. I found a marriage register in 1896 which lists her name as Annie McMillan, daughter of Donald McMillan & Catherine McMillan. 1901 Census says her birthdate is 1845. That would leave over 20 years age difference between Mary & Annie if, in fact they were sisters. I guess it could be possible. I wonder if she was actually a niece or something & raised as a sister.... Malcolm Mcmillan, I don't have a clue about. In your find about Malcolm marrying a Christy Livingston and were living with Angus' family in 1841, that's somewhere to start. There was Duncan McMillan living in the household of Angus,too. Would he be another brother?

3. Mary McMillan's death certifcate did not mention parents although a place was there for it to be filled in. It's odd that I havent been able to find a death certificate for James.

Regards,
Deb
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Debbie,
You dont mean that Mrs Thomas Vogan of Wiarton ( Mary's sister ) was married in Ontario in 1896? That seems to me a bit late as she had two sons born in the 1840's and her husband was still living when the 1901 Census taken.

More on Mrs Thomas Vogan of Wiarton,Ontario presumingly James Livingston's sister in law mentioned in the Mary Macmillan Mrs James Livingston's obituary as a sister of the deceased.
1901 Canada Census Wiarton, Bruce County North, Province of Ontario
Thomas Vogan b. Nov. 3, 1844
Annie Vogan b.June 8,1845
Arthur Vogan b. Feb.15,1886
Samuel Vogan b.Feb 14, 1891

You should be able to find your cousins if Arthur and Samuel,s descendants are still located in the Wiarton area. Close by to the blue waters of Georgian Bay. Hope this helps.

regards,

Donald
deblivingstone
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by deblivingstone »

Donald,

Annie was the second marriage to Thos. Vogan in 1896 & therefore a step-mother to his sons. As far as I can determine by the age of Annie at the time of the marriage, there were no children from the second marriage.


Deb
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Debbie,

Sorry about that. Ok I follow you now. Annie was Thomas Vogan's second wife. Ok now I get it. This is still good because you have as you earlier mentioned a birth date for Ann Macmillan and the names of her parents from her marriage record to Thomas Vogan of Wiarton. So you have a documented family so far of Mary, Malcolm and Ann Macmillian and the names of the parents. Unfortunately though I found a Donald McMillan and Catharine Shaw in the parish records who had a daughter Anne born 1838 and son Malcolm born 1835 at Colonsay I could found a Donald and Catharine in Colonsay or all of Argyllshire who had a daughter Ann born 1845 or daughter Mary born abt. 1824 or son Malcolm born abt. 1816.

I am sorry I did find much more in the Colonsay or Jura Parish records which would have helped me put more the pieces of the McMillan and Livington family puzzle together.
The only thing I really found out from the parish records was that your ancestor James Livingston and his wife Mary McMillan were married at Colonsay in 1843 and that a few years earlier in 1840 "one" other Livingston at Colonsay a Christy (Christina) Livingston married Malcolm McMillan and the following year 1841 according to the census Malcolm and Christina (Christy) and their newborn son Duncan were living with Angus and Margaret Livingston a Napoleonic War British Army pensioner on nearby Jura with a James Livingston single born 1816, Hugh b. 1819 and Ann Livingston. The Colonsay parish and the rest of the Argyllshire parish records seem to missing the birth records for your Mary, Ann and Malcolm that I looking for and this is major setback I was not expecting. There was a good chance that one or all of these records I would find and in which case we would able to verify their parents name. So I do regret this. So close and yet so far.

regards,

Donald
jmlivingstone
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by jmlivingstone »

Donald,

I've spent the last few days attempting to track down who exactly James is, so far with no luck, that of course does not mean he is not a son of Angus & Margaret, their daughter Mary b.1802 was not known about until a few months ago. To date, the first time James appears, is in the 1841 census.

It's always possible the ''Unknown'' Livingstone is indeed James, (as Keith previously suggested about Nov. 1906),in my opinion, if the registrar was incompetent enough not to register a christian name, it's not impossible he registered the wrong sex of the child. I'll have another look at the OPR, to see if there are any discrepancies in the entries before or after the ''Unknown'' Livingstone

My g/g/grandfather & grandmother, John & Agnes, named a son James Angus, so given naming procedures in those days, this would suggest James was the name of another close family member, why not an uncle ?

So, while I am sure you are 100% correct with your research on James, I would really like to be able to prove conclusively, if he is a son or cousin, or whatever his relationship is to Angus & Margaret, I suspect we probably have as much chance of finding this info, as we have of finding more info on Angus, I hate these loose ends.

As for the McMillans possibly coming from Islay, I have vague memories of my father saying, that when he used to go to Islay on holiday as a kid, I suppose in the early 1920's, his uncles/cousins or whoever, used to take cattle to Jura, possibly there was quite a bit of traffic between the neighbouring islands,

John
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi John,

Well I am actually more inclined towards the notion that these Macmillans are connected to a family of Colonsay Macmillan and it is Debbie's understanding that Jame's wife Mary McMillan was born there in 1824 and the marriage record of her ancestor James Livingston and Mary McMillan indicates that were married at Colonsay. So I guess you have to say I found something significant but not enough to get us where we were trying to go. Still if nothing else it does seem to definitely connect Debbie's ancestor in some way to your Angus Livingston and Hugh Livingston. It is unlikely that either the James residing with old Angus and Margaret Livingston and this Christina Mcmillan (Christina (Christy) Livington and her husband Macolm McMillan according to their Colonsay marriage records are not some sort of family relations. I dont want to dispute the info of the Australians as to the family of Angus Livingston and Margaret Hale or Mcphail just that this James Livington single at the time who later married a Mcmilland and this Mcmillan family have a Mcmillan connection and a ANgus Livington family connection that was probably never taken into account in the study of Angus and Margaret's family. That being said absolute proof regarding who the parents of this James Livington born 1816 and this Mrs Malcolm McMillan (Christina Livington born also abt. 1816) is not known. Anyways the fact is that two Livingstons in this case James. born abt. 1816 and Christina born abt. 1816 married two Macmillans and lived around the time of their marriage with Old Angus and his son Hugh. That is a fact but one of the few facts I do have to offer our research of your ancestor Angus and his mysterious family. So we cant really say to Debbie that we have found the father and mother of her ancestor James because although it like he is living with your ancestor Angus and his wife Margaret that is not quite the same as having a birth record or baptismal record with the name of his parents stated in writing.

So in summary here is what we do know regarding Debbie's ancestor James Livingston:

1. James Livingston marries Mary McMillan 1842 in Colonsay Parish (Only a James Livingston b. 1816 in area in 1841 Census at Jura with Angus and Margaret Livingston, Hugh, Ann and a Malcolm Mcmillan and his wife Christine or Christy Livingston m. Colonsay 1840
2. First child Ann born Feb.1843 in Colonsay Parish
3. Second Child born Feb. 1845 in Ontario Canada (So James and Mary came to Ontario in the mid 1840's. and settled first in Eldon Township, Victoria County, Ontario and later in Arthur Township, Welllington North COunty, Ontario near Mt. Forest.
4. In the 1871 Ontario Census James Livingston age 54 weaver is residing in Arthur township, Wellington North County, Ontario

I havent found your Hugh born abt. in 1819 in the ONtario census records.

regards,

Donald
jmlivingstone
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by jmlivingstone »

Hi Deb/Donald,

Some more info on James etc, note that John & Agnes are in Uragaig at the same time as James, so we have Angus & Margaret, John, Agnes & baby Neil, plus James, Christina & Catherine, all resident in the small hamlet of Uragaig, would say this almost definitely confirms the relationship of James with this side of the family.
Even if it's not clear as yet what his relationship is to Angus/Margaret, I suspect eventually he will prove to be either a son or nephew.

Some of the Livingstones below do not appear to be related to Angus & Margaret, it's possible they are all related, & this is the reason for Angus & co. being in a small hamlet in the north west of Colonsay. The total populaton of the census area, including Uragaig, at this time was less than 400 people.

We know that John & Agnes moved to Islay, their g/son (my g/father) eventually ending up in Greenock, Scotland, & James went to Canada,so only the illusive Angus & Margaret left to trace.

I have also searched the old cemetery records, there is no record of any Livingstone buried in the area, although a number of stones are illegible, or have fallen over.


Livingstones of Colonsay

0000 LIVINGSTONE, JAMES on april 15 1842 m. MARY MACMILLAN with ch;
1.Anne Livingstone born mar 4 1842 baptised june 18 1843
Source: Colonsay Parochial records

0000 LIVINGSTONE, JOHN m. AGNES EDMON__ with ch;
1.Neil Livingstone baptised june 18 1842
Source: Colonsay Parochial records

0000 LIVINGSTONE, CHRISTINA on jan 26 1840 m. MALCOLM MACMILLAN with ch;
1.Donald Macmillan baptised oct 11 1842
Source: Colonsay Parochial records

0000 LIVINGSTONE, CATHERINE on jan 21 1844 m. JAMES MACFADDEN
Source: Colonsay Parochial records

1700’s LIVINGSTONE, ARCHIBALD m. MARY BLUE
with ch;
1.Marion Livingstone baptised aug 12 1797
Source: Colonsay Parochial records

0000 LIVINGSTONE, DONALD on feb 17 1816 m. MARY GRAHAM with ch;
1.Mary Livingstone baptised mar 5 1817
Source: Colonsay Parochial records

John
Roberta Ann
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:56 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by Roberta Ann »

Hi John;

Butting in! Archibald Livingston and Mary Blue first child Mary baptised January 11, 1797, Colonsay.

Regards;

Roberta
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