James Livingston

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Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi James,

As James if not included in the surviviing parish records of ANgus and Margaret certainly some might conclude without a parish record that the James living with old Angus at Urisaig, Colonsay in 1841 might be a nephew or not a relative at all. And I cant say for certain that he is related to Angus or be 100 per cent certain that he is the same James that married Margaret McMillan in following year in Colonsay. Much of this is not chrystal clear in any sense of the word.

I think it was a logical train of thought to suspect that there was some significance to the info of the 1841 Census at Urisaig that showed a single James Livingston living with Angus, Margaret and family along with interestingly with a newly married McMillan couple also from Colonsay. I just figured the odds were about a million to one that I would find (A) a single James Livingston a year before a James Livingston married a Margaret McMillian at Colonsay and (B) at the same time as single James Livingston was living with your old ANgus Livingston and wife Margaret another couple named McMillian was residing with old Angus his wife Margaret, their children and this James. It just seems to much of a coincidence not be somehow connectted to Debbies husbands family ancestors James LIvingston and Margaret McMillan of Colonsay. But as you say perhaps someone else can figure this all out. Maybe it is just a coincidence I have come across that Angus and Margaret Livingston had a James Livingston and a McMillan family living with him and they have no connection to the James Livingston that married Margaret McMillan in 1842 in Colonsay. Just dont know. I wish I could be more helpful.

regards,

Donald
jmlivingstone
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by jmlivingstone »

Donald/Debbie,

Just came across a family tree in Ancestry, which has James born Mull 1810, parents Alexander Livingstone, 1789-1838 Tranent, Scotland & Janet Mark,1793-1853 born in same area, they had a large family, all born in Tranent, with one exception James. James appears to have been born 06.02.1810 on the Isle of Mull, he died 23.12.1894, at Arthur Twp, Wellington Co., Ontario.

James is shown as marrying a Margaret McMillan, a fact we already know to be accurate, place of birth for Margaret is Colister, Scotland, I've looked in Scotlands Places, old & present, Colister does not appear to have ever existed. It also lists Margaret as dying 1910 in Canada.

The fact that only James was born on Mull appears a bit strange, although, I suppose it's possible the family moved from Tranent to Mull for a period for work, it does not mention Alexanders occupation, both him & Janet died in Tranent.

There also appears to be a definite discrepancy,the tree shows Margaret in Glasgow in the 1881 census, I believe in her mid 50's, we already know James & Margaret emigrated around 1843-44.

I'm far from convinced about the accuracy of this tree, although enough of it fits, to think it may be worth a look at, I've got a copy of it, so if you want to see if it fits with info you already possess, I'll get it on here tomorrow.

Still does not help finding why James was resident with Angus & Margaret at Uragaig,

John
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi John,

I am familiar with the old Tranent Parish Livingston line of East Lothian. Tranent Parish Livinstons are old Lowland Livingstone family not directly connected to highland Livingstones and by DNA testing proven to be not connected to the Parker Livingstone group which both Debbies Husband, my Livingston kin and yours belong to. The ancestral line of Alexander Livingston and Janet Marks and other branches connected to the old Tranent Parish, East Lothian Livingstons are not regretably of any of the highland Livingston groups we have so far identified. This was however only recently uncovered so it is quite likely that you might see attempts to link the Tranent Livingston group with a highland Livingston family. The problem for us is that DNA testing has and likely will in the future prove that this is not the case. So connecting any highland James Livingston to an old (before 1700)Tranent Parish, East Lothian Livingston family is in my view an error. Oddly enough, I actually worked on two family trees connected to the Tranent Parish Livingstons so I knew something about these East Lothian Livingstons. Just had to refresh my memory a bit but when you mentioned Alexander Livingston and Janet Marks it sorta jogged my memory. I wish we could get Keith involved again in the Project as I am interested in seeing if we cant upgrade and in the process define better his connection in the Parker Livingstone group and to you and others within this Western Argyllshire Maclea - Livingstone group.

regards,

Donald
jmlivingstone
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by jmlivingstone »

Donald,

I hate saying this, & if the person who came up with the family tree I am talking about ever reads this, I apologise for doubting their research, but, it appears that this Livingstone family tree, has been cobbled together to suit someones theory, I suspect there has been a lot of guess work used, & not a lot of time spent verifying facts, it just does not make 100% sense.

They have a large family born in Tranent, with one exception, James being born Mull, they also have Margaret, whom we know for a fact, emigrated to Canada around 1843-44, working in Glasgow in the 1881 census, it just does not make sense.

The only reason I even bothered posting this, was to see if Debbie was interested in having a look at some of the names, as probably some of the info could possibly make sense.

On a slightly different subject, I note some time ago, Andrew came up with a sub-group in the Parker - Livingstone group, of 15662/153356/15073/127272/172013(LY9P8N), which in his words, were ''Begging for a family tree explanation'', I'm assuming, possibly wrongly, 155336 are probably your relations, 127272 being myself.

As yet, nobody appears to have pursued any further research on this subject, 15662, Keith in Oz, is almost certainly descended from Gavin, son of Angus & Margaret, my side originating from another son John. I reckon this could be a good project to pursue, it would be so much easier, if we could obtain family trees from all concerned, I suppose, what do you think,

John
Last edited by jmlivingstone on Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
jmlivingstone
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by jmlivingstone »

Donald,

Nothing to do with the present subject, but I have recently upgraded to 111 markers with FT, & that is definitely as far as I'm going, at least till they come up with something else.

Do you have an FT ref. for Debbies husbands results, it would be nice to have a look at them,

John
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi John,

I am thinking about going with that upgrade for my Livingston kin that was tested. I dont have the specific information just noticed that my Livingston is distance of 1 at 37 markers from Deb's husband so I am curious what a more detailed 67 marker test would indicate. I dont think we had anyone at 37 distance of 1 in my LIvingston family test results. The closest I think was a distance of 2 at the 67 marker level. It is an interesting turn of events. I had suspected and was correct to state that Deb;s husband would very likely have results that would put him in the group known as Parker Livingstone of highland Western Argyllshire origin but did not know precisely within that group which Livingstone family he would be a closer match to. What I think is probably of interest to our DNA people in the project is that a significant number of descendants of Livingstons who families who lived in Western Argyllshire in Mull, neighbouring Morvern and Colonsay for example show results that match them up to the Parker Livingstone group in a general sense. WIthin that group however there are variations among individual Livingston families indicating they are not all as closely related as we might have expected. As more are tested in the future and show up to be part of our Parker Livingstone group I think that Andrew and Kyle will be a better position to make some conclusions regarding the significance of the various Livingstones within our general Western Argyllshire group. It is encouraging when we have another such as Deb's husband that is obviously of our highland Western Argyllshire Maclea Livingston group and bringing us one step closer to understanding the why and whatfore of the Parker Livingston group.

regards,

Donald
deblivingstone
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by deblivingstone »

Hi Donald/Debs,

Some more info below on James, I have no idea who compiled this, possibly a Katherine Livingstone, who has a site containing pretty much the same information, I came across both sites while looking for something else, I never did find what I as orginally looking for.

Anyway, thanks to whoever compiled this, & I'll have another look at my lot, see if I can identify who James really was related to, can't say I'm too hopeful of a result.

James Livingstone was born in Feb 1810 in Isle of Mull, Argyll, Scotland, died 23rd.Dec. 1894 in Arthur Twp, Wellington Co, Ontario, Canada aged 84, and was buried in Egremont Twp, Grey Co, Ontario, Canada.
James married Mary McMillan 15th.Apr. 1842 in Jura, Argyll, Scotland. Mary born in 1824 in , Scotland and died on 5th.Jan.1910 in Toronto, York Co, Ontario, Canada aged 86.
• Mary resided at 124 Brunswick Ave at the time of her death in Toronto, York Co, Ontario, Canada.
Ann Livingstone was born Mar 4, 1842 in Jura, Argyll, Scotland, was christened 18th.June.1843 in Jura, Argyll, Scotland, and died on 4th.Aug, 1912 in Mount Forest, Grey Co, Ontario, Canada aged 70.
Margaret Livingstone was born 10th.Feb.1845 in Eldon Twp, Victoria Co, Ontario, Canada and died 8th.May 1914 in Toronto, York Co, Ontario, Canada aged 69.
Katie Livingstone was born on 19th.Sept.1846 in Eldon Twp, Victoria Co, Ontario, Canada and died on 15th.Mar. 1902 aged 55.
Duncan N. Livingstone was born 29th.May 1848 in Eldon Twp, Victoria Co, Ontario, Canada, and died on 25th.Jan.1941 in Toronto, York Co, Ontario, Canada aged 92.
Mary Livingstone was born on 13th.July. 1850 in Eldon Twp, Victoria Co, Ontario, Canada and died on 30th.Mar 1928 in Toronto, York Co, Ontario, Canada aged 77.
Jane Livingstone was born on 12th.Jan. 1853 in Arthur Twp, Wellington Co, Ontario, Canada and died on 18th.Apr .1937 in Toronto, York Co, Ontario, Canada aged 84.
Donald Livingstone was born on 21st. Jan . 1855 in Arthur Twp, Wellington Co, Ontario, Canada and died on 12th.June 1943 in Toronto, York Co, Ontario, Canada aged 88.
Bessie Livingstone was born on 7th.Apr. 1860 in Arthur Twp, Wellington Co, Ontario, Canada and died on 15th.May 1886 in Toronto, York Co, Ontario, Canada aged 26.
James Livingstone was born on 14th.Sept. 1865 in Arthur Twp, Wellington Co, Ontario, Canada and died on 27th. Feb 1945 aged 79.
James resided at 119 Garden Ave,Toronto, York Co, Ontario, Canada 1932
Angus Livingstone was born on 19th.Feb 1857 in Arthur Twp,Wellington Co, Ontario, Canada and died 27th. Dec.1921 aged 64.
Duncan N.Livingstone was born on 29th.May 1848 in Eldon Twp, Victoria Co, Ontario, Canada and died on 25th.Jan. 1941 in Toronto, York Co, Ontario, Canada aged 92.
• He worked as a farmer in 1878 in Nassagaweya Twp, Halton Co, Ontario, Canada.
• He farmed at Egremont Twp, Grey Co, Ontario, Canada, 1881
• He farmed at Arthur Twp, Wellington Co, Ontario, Canada, 1887
• He resided in Mount Forest, Grey Co, Ontario, Canada in 1901 .
Duncan married Mary Boyd Frank, daughter of William Gault Frank and Mary Jane Coe, on 21st.July 1875 in Acton, Halton Co, Ontario, Canada. Mary was born on 23rd.Aug.1857 in , Ontario, Canada.
• Marriage Ceremony conducted by D. B. Bauman witnessed by Christiana Franks and Elen McLaughlan.
James Franklin Livingstone was born on 16th.June 1876 in Nassagaweya Twp, Halton Co, Ontario, Canada.
Ellen Laticia Livingstone was born on 12th.Oct. 1878 in Nassagaweya Twp, Halton Co, Ontario, Canada.
Ellen married Charles A. McLellan on 18th.Sept. 1910 in Mount Forest, Grey Co, Ontario, Canada. Charles was born in 1884
John Stanley Livingstone was born on 25th.Apr. 1881 in Egremont Twp, Grey Co, Ontario, Canada.
• He worked as an electrician in 1920 in Mount Forest, Grey Co, Ontario, Canada.
John married Pearl Rooney, daughter of Thomas John Rooney and Mary Boyd, on 22nd.Apr. 1922 in Ancaster, Wentworth Co, Ontario, Canada Pearl was born in 1893 in Ontario, Canada.
• Marriage Ceremony conducted by T. E. Chilcott witnessed by Daniel T. Campbell and Carrie Campbell both of Hamilton.
Laura Livingstone was born on 21st.Jan. 1883 in Egremont Twp, Grey Co, Ontario, Canada.
Mary Rachel Livingstone was born on 29th.Nov. 1887 in Arthur Twp, Wellington Co, Ontario, Canada
Mary married Dr. J.C. Oakshette on 4th.Aug. 1909 in Arthur Twp, Wellington Co, Ontario, Canada.he was born in 1859.
• Marriage witnessed by James F. Livingstone of Acton & Ella L. Livingstone of Mount Forest.
Bessie Sophia Livingtone was born on 30th.Oct.1890 in Arthur Twp, Wellington Co, Ontario, Canada3
Bessie married Arthur James Sawyer, son of John Thomas Sawyer and Mary Jane Nash, on 24th.Apr. 1920 in Toronto, York Co, Ontario, Canada. Arthur was born in 1888 in Clapham, Greater London, Surrey, England.
• He worked as an accountant in 1920 in Toronto, York Co, Ontario, Canada.
Kathleen Livingstone was born on 4th.Nov.1892 in Arthur Twp, Wellington Co, Ontario, Canada.
• Kathleen resided at 160 Westminster Ave in Toronto, York Co, Ontario, Canada in 1920.
Maggie Myrtle Livingstone was born on 17th.May 1896 in Arthur Twp, Wellington Co, Ontario, Canada.
Jane Livingstone was born on Jan 12, 1853 in Arthur Twp, Wellington Co, Ontario, Canada and died on 18th.Apr. 1937 in Toronto, York Co, Ontario, Canada aged 84.
Jane married Thomas Austin Willitts, son of Thomas Willitts and Harriet Elizabeth Colwell. Thomas was born on 5th.May 1856 in Bristol, , Gloucestershire, England, died on 4th.Jan. 1932 in Toronto, York Co, Ontario, Canada aged 75, and was buried in Park Lawn Cemetery, Toronto.
• He worked as a commercial traveller in 1901 in Toronto, York Co, Ontario, Canada.
Duncan N Livingstone was born on May 29, 1848 in Eldon Twp, Victoria Co, Ontario, Canada and died on 25th.Jan. 1941 in Toronto, York Co, Ontario, Canada1 aged 92.
• He worked as a farmer in 1878 in Nassagaweya Twp, Halton Co, Ontario, Canada.
• Duncan farmed at Egremont Twp, Grey Co, Ontario, Canada, 1881
• Duncan farmed at Arthur Twp, Wellington Co, Ontario, Canada, 1887
• Duncan resided in Mount Forest, Grey Co, Ontario, Canada in 1901 .
Duncan married Mary Boyd Frank, daughter of William Gault Frank and Mary Jane Core, on 21st.Jul. 1875 in Acton, Halton Co, Ontario, Canada Mary was born on 23rd.Aug. 1857 in , Ontario, Canada.
• Marriage Ceremony conducted by D. B. Bauman witnessed by Christiana Franks and Elen McLaughlan.

Hope this is helpful,

John[/quote]

Donald/John/Kyle

The above info is pretty much our line. The above listed John Stanley Livingstone & Pearl Rooney are my husband's grandparents. They had 2 sons. Their son Wells Duncan Livingstone (1927-1999) is my husband's father. The other son is Milo Stanley Livingstone (1924-2003).
We ordered the 67 marker a few days ago. Hopefully that will point us in the right direction.

Deb
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Debbie,
Indeed your husband's ancestor James Livingston was born at Mull. Without a doubt. We suspected he might have been more specifically in a village at Ross of Mull but there is of course no surviving birth or baptismal record from Mull to prove without a doubt precisely where in Mull he was born though have spent much time in speculation on this subject. I am not 100 percent certain of the exact birth date. It could be a few years later than than 1810 actually. Not sure.

Thanks for passing on that very comprehensive family tree and the only thing I would point out that is that James marriage to Margaret McMillan actually was recorded in the old Colonsay,Argyllshire Parish book and as far as know actually occurred on the Island of Colonsay where James Livingston and Margaret's McMillan family lived at the time. I did hear that the minister from Jura was at one time kept the parish records for Colonsay and Jura on the island of Jura so that may be the origin of this confusion. Perhaps someone from Colonsay might be to explain this better. I have noticed this Colonsay/Jura confusion also in the 1841 Census record for James Livingston at Uragaig or Urigaig which is clearly on Colonsay but recorded as being in Jura in the copy of the census i had access to. But no I am am reasonably certain your husbands ancestor James Livingston, though almost certainly born on the Isle of Mull was at least by 1841 living on the Island of Colonsay apparently near the McMillan family to Margaret according to the Canadian family history information came from the Isle of Colonsay. I think the Colonsay parish records of the marriage between a James Livingston and Margaret McMillan in the year 1842 match completely what the obituary of Margaret (McMillan) Livingston and other information you have presented from Canada states.

Of the 200 or so Livingstones/Livingstons in the DNA Project the results have indicated a number of clearly distinctive groups. This may not be what was expected but that is the case. We all call ourselves Livingstons but according to the DNA result do not neccessarily share the same ancestor way back when. Based on the somewhat similar characteristics of the DNA results Andrew and Kyle of the DNA Project have grouped John, your husband and my Livingston cousin and several others whose ancestors for the most part have Mull, Morvern and ancestral connections to neighbouring parishes in the Western part of Argyllshire. So this much is pretty much self evident from the tests that this is where our celtic gaelic speaking ancestors lived likely for 1000 years or more and in an ancient celtic kingdom in the North of Ireland before that. Within this Parker-Livingston I understand that there are some marker result variations meaning that in end some of us are likely more closely related, others possibly more closely related perhaps by several generations perhaps in some situations by less. And of course there is great future value to having all of these folks in the Parker Livingstone groups tested and all the other 200 Livingstons in that once the results are there and the specific Livingston groups established then those who participate in the future are probably more easily matched to other Livingstons who share the similar ancestral origins. With a Project as immense in scope and complicated you have to start somewhere and clearly those involved in the Project and the participants have done that. Everyone who participates in the DNA project contributes to developing a better understanding of this apparently large group of folks whom called themselves Livingstones or Livingstons. I dont have a firm grasp of this science so it is helpful that both Andrew Lancaster and Kyle Maclea do and I also really like how Familytreedna has organized the results on their website.

Yes the 67 marker upgrade is a good idea for all of those identified as being amongst the Parker Livingstone group. Quite a few already have done this and it will probably help to better define your husband's results with others identified as being in the Parker Livingstone group.

We were recently contacted by a Livingstone of Quebec origins whose ancestor settled sometime before 1861 in Innisfil Township, Simcoe County, Ontario which I think is near Barrie and then in the later 1800's settled in Lobo Township, Middlesex County Ontario which I think is near London,Ontario. So we continue to have a strong Canadian contribution to the forum reflecting the historic reality that a significant number of our Clan members from the highland Argyllshire ended up settling in Canada in the 1800's.

regards,

Donald
jmlivingstone
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by jmlivingstone »

Hi Donald,

It's a pity to me that there are not more livingstones who are still resident in Scotland taking part in this research, I know for a fact, that one of my aunts, who married a man from Mull, in probably the late 1920's, met Livingstone family members on Mull, so there is an excellent chance there are still relations living on Mull now. Unfortunately, I have no idea where they may live, or anything else about them, other than that they lived somewhere not too far from Shiaba in the late 1920's/30's,

John
Roberta Ann
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:56 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by Roberta Ann »

Hi John and to all our discerning members and guests;

Thank you for the information.

James Livingstone b 1776, Scotland d Dec 11, 1863. Wife Christina b 1791, Scotland d Jan 27, 1873.


http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/dundee ... gstons.htm

Cousin Jewel located the obituaries for James and Christina.

1860 Census Cook County, Illinois.
Margret age 38 b Scotland
Ellen age 28 b Nova Scotia
Catherine b 1834 Nova Scotia
John and Harriot twins b 1836 Nova Scotia

Regards;

Roberta
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