Hi Donald,
I think I read somewhere, the old manse at Bunnessan, is now called Assopol Farm.
I also found some more info on Donald & Christina family, I don't remember seeing Catherine before, but the Livingstone Clan seem to have a habit of producing previously unknowns.
I've not had time to check on the facts below, although, the site I found them on, does not normally post anything they have not verified ;
1. Jane or Jean, b. July 1807, d. Aug. 1872, she is buried at Kilpatrick, she apparently married a Wm. Vass, who was born March 1816 at Logie, Easter Rosshire around July 1841.
2. Donald himself, appears to have died at Ardtun, around Sept. 1866.
3. Duncan, b. Feb. 1817, d. 1870. Grey County, Ontario, he married Ann McPhail March 1848.
4. Alexander, b. 1812, d. 1886 at Grey County, Ontario, he married Ann McKinnon, Jan.1848 on Mull, they had at least one son Donald, b 1848 befre they emigrated.
5. Catherine, 1828 - 1861, place of death unknown probably Canada.
John
James Livingston
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Canadian Livingstone
- Posts: 2773
- Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm
Re: James Livingston
Hi John,
Tnanks for that info JOhn. I may have got that from Dawn long ago and filed it away somewhere. Good to refresh the mind. Perhaps there is a detailed death record in the Scottish records then for 1866 or was a tombstone found I wonder. I will check.
This might help explain the situation faced Donald and Cirsty Livingston and their family during the 1840's and 1850's on Ross of Mull. Also the potato famine had some major impact on tenants on Ross of Mull and hunger and sickness became a threat to many as I suspected. Donald and Cirsty were residing at Ardfinaig according to the 1841 Census where Donald was employed as a laborer but by the 1851 Census they were at Ardtunknocken or something like that and I no idea where that is or was at Ross. In 1861 I think they are recorded just at Ardtun and still cant find that place either in Ross of Mull. Anyways this gives one the sense of what they might have been experiencing as tenants there. Check this out regarding Ross:
{Villages in Bold were where Livingstons resided at one time or another according to the early 19th century parish records}
In 1848, the ministers of Iona and the Ross wrote to the Rev. Dr. M'Leod in Glasgow, who was collecting evidence,
"The poor here are in a state of great destitution, not only of food but also clothing... Most of the cottars have sold and consumed their only cow; many of the small tenants are at present living from their stock of cattle, which they are consuming for food. A short time will reduce many of this class to the level of the poorest cottars." (p. 42). In 1849, the Glasgow Relief Board Report states that since the famine, the smallest number of recipients of assistance was 853 and the largest 1401.
"243 persons, 125 adults and 118 children, have just emigrated, which helped locally, but many got cholera on the way. Not a few have fallen victim to it and the survivors had suffered great privation."
Although, "During this year the Duke of Argyll, through his factor, Mr. Campbell of Ardfenaig, employed a considerable number of men at trenching, draining etc., and a good many women and young persons in planting, weeding and other light work... We fear that the Committee must resume operations in this district." One of the Napier Commission informants said that most of these improvements had taken place around the farm of Ardfenaig (where the factor lived). Devine' s table of applications made under the drainage act shows that the Duke of Argyll, one of the largest landlords, applied for improvement for only 540 acres, whereas some other landlords claimed for over 100,000 acres. Of course, the Duke may have undertaken drainage from his own pocket without applying for assistance.
Incidentally, the Relief board reporters state: "We were...informed that a good deal of work had been done at Tirerregan, but did not visit."
Interest payments for money put forward for drainage work was still being paid by local tenants 30 years later, one of their great grievances, but, "There was no use complaining - we were threatened everywhere." (see below). (P 17)
Local women were employed at knitting to pay for their relief. A list for 1850-51 names 108 women from the Ross (excluding Iona). The writing is difficult to read, but the names from 'Tiergan' seem to have been: Margaret MacDonald, Catherine MacArthur, Mary McNeil, Betsy McLean and Maeve MacFarlane. Margaret MacDonald knitted 3 dozen and 10 pairs hose, receiving 10/lid, and 4 dozen and 3 pairs socks for 7/lid (IA ,B1805).
John Campbell's reports to the Duke continue to speak of 'heavy distress' among small tenants during 1850 and 1851 and 94 destitute (males?) were employed on the Ross in 1851.
There were wholesale clearances, of Shiaba in 1847, for instance, but the usual policy was individual eviction for rent arrears or squatting. John Campbell wrote:
"I ordered John Stort to be removed because he had a piece of land for which he paid no rent and because he married a woman in the south last year and brought her back to Creich. I make a point in all such cases of having such ejected rather than that they should become burdens on the property. I have no doubt the rest of the cottars will give in their names for emigration." (April 26th, 1851) (IA ,B1805). On Whitsunday 1852, he writes: "All the cottars on the farm of Tirergan to be removed as soon as possible."
I took at look at the 1861 Census and 85 year old Donald and his wife Cirsty age 81 survived the 1850's and are living with a daughter Catharine. I could not read the village in Kilfinichen but in 1851 interestingly enough they are still at Ardfinaig mentioned in the above info. Donald was an agricultural laborer but in his old age became a pauper according to the 1861 Census. Perhaps he employed earlier by John Campbell of Ardfinaig. RIght location. See above info. Could not have been pleasant for Donald and Cirsty.They appear to be the last of the Livingstons of South western Ross. Most of their children went to Ontario Canada I understand in the 1850's perhaps encouraged by the 8th Duke of Argyll.
No doubt your ancestor Angus Livingston's situation at Uragaig, Colonsay was not much better in the 1840's. Wonder what happened to him? Was he overcome by disease or hunger. Did leave Colonsay with one of his family members to the lowlands or emigrate. No evidence he was still in Scotland in 1851 so either he died, emigrated or just did not get recorded in the 1851 Scottish Census.
NOte that the information i included above mentions the Situation at Shiaba briefly as well. Things sounded pretty desperate for the Livingstons at Ross of Mull and other tenants. No doubt about it.
Curiously I found a Catharine Livingston age 50 pauper living with a Mcgilverary family in KIlfinichen Parish in the 1871 census. Age is off but think it actually the daughter Catharine that remained behind in Ross of Mull to look after her impoverished and elderly parents Donald and Cirsty. I noticed that the family were at a place like Ardtun in Kilfinichen Parish 1871 but I could not find it on the map of Ross. Donald lived to be a good age of 85 and Cirsty 81 which makes me think that though in a state of poverty some members of the community were providing them with the ability to maintain themmselves. Id like to think that anyways. No old age pension for them I guess. Amazingly some people seem hell bent on dragging us back to this kind of Charles DIcken's like world.
regards
Donald
Tnanks for that info JOhn. I may have got that from Dawn long ago and filed it away somewhere. Good to refresh the mind. Perhaps there is a detailed death record in the Scottish records then for 1866 or was a tombstone found I wonder. I will check.
This might help explain the situation faced Donald and Cirsty Livingston and their family during the 1840's and 1850's on Ross of Mull. Also the potato famine had some major impact on tenants on Ross of Mull and hunger and sickness became a threat to many as I suspected. Donald and Cirsty were residing at Ardfinaig according to the 1841 Census where Donald was employed as a laborer but by the 1851 Census they were at Ardtunknocken or something like that and I no idea where that is or was at Ross. In 1861 I think they are recorded just at Ardtun and still cant find that place either in Ross of Mull. Anyways this gives one the sense of what they might have been experiencing as tenants there. Check this out regarding Ross:
{Villages in Bold were where Livingstons resided at one time or another according to the early 19th century parish records}
In 1848, the ministers of Iona and the Ross wrote to the Rev. Dr. M'Leod in Glasgow, who was collecting evidence,
"The poor here are in a state of great destitution, not only of food but also clothing... Most of the cottars have sold and consumed their only cow; many of the small tenants are at present living from their stock of cattle, which they are consuming for food. A short time will reduce many of this class to the level of the poorest cottars." (p. 42). In 1849, the Glasgow Relief Board Report states that since the famine, the smallest number of recipients of assistance was 853 and the largest 1401.
"243 persons, 125 adults and 118 children, have just emigrated, which helped locally, but many got cholera on the way. Not a few have fallen victim to it and the survivors had suffered great privation."
Although, "During this year the Duke of Argyll, through his factor, Mr. Campbell of Ardfenaig, employed a considerable number of men at trenching, draining etc., and a good many women and young persons in planting, weeding and other light work... We fear that the Committee must resume operations in this district." One of the Napier Commission informants said that most of these improvements had taken place around the farm of Ardfenaig (where the factor lived). Devine' s table of applications made under the drainage act shows that the Duke of Argyll, one of the largest landlords, applied for improvement for only 540 acres, whereas some other landlords claimed for over 100,000 acres. Of course, the Duke may have undertaken drainage from his own pocket without applying for assistance.
Incidentally, the Relief board reporters state: "We were...informed that a good deal of work had been done at Tirerregan, but did not visit."
Interest payments for money put forward for drainage work was still being paid by local tenants 30 years later, one of their great grievances, but, "There was no use complaining - we were threatened everywhere." (see below). (P 17)
Local women were employed at knitting to pay for their relief. A list for 1850-51 names 108 women from the Ross (excluding Iona). The writing is difficult to read, but the names from 'Tiergan' seem to have been: Margaret MacDonald, Catherine MacArthur, Mary McNeil, Betsy McLean and Maeve MacFarlane. Margaret MacDonald knitted 3 dozen and 10 pairs hose, receiving 10/lid, and 4 dozen and 3 pairs socks for 7/lid (IA ,B1805).
John Campbell's reports to the Duke continue to speak of 'heavy distress' among small tenants during 1850 and 1851 and 94 destitute (males?) were employed on the Ross in 1851.
There were wholesale clearances, of Shiaba in 1847, for instance, but the usual policy was individual eviction for rent arrears or squatting. John Campbell wrote:
"I ordered John Stort to be removed because he had a piece of land for which he paid no rent and because he married a woman in the south last year and brought her back to Creich. I make a point in all such cases of having such ejected rather than that they should become burdens on the property. I have no doubt the rest of the cottars will give in their names for emigration." (April 26th, 1851) (IA ,B1805). On Whitsunday 1852, he writes: "All the cottars on the farm of Tirergan to be removed as soon as possible."
I took at look at the 1861 Census and 85 year old Donald and his wife Cirsty age 81 survived the 1850's and are living with a daughter Catharine. I could not read the village in Kilfinichen but in 1851 interestingly enough they are still at Ardfinaig mentioned in the above info. Donald was an agricultural laborer but in his old age became a pauper according to the 1861 Census. Perhaps he employed earlier by John Campbell of Ardfinaig. RIght location. See above info. Could not have been pleasant for Donald and Cirsty.They appear to be the last of the Livingstons of South western Ross. Most of their children went to Ontario Canada I understand in the 1850's perhaps encouraged by the 8th Duke of Argyll.
No doubt your ancestor Angus Livingston's situation at Uragaig, Colonsay was not much better in the 1840's. Wonder what happened to him? Was he overcome by disease or hunger. Did leave Colonsay with one of his family members to the lowlands or emigrate. No evidence he was still in Scotland in 1851 so either he died, emigrated or just did not get recorded in the 1851 Scottish Census.
NOte that the information i included above mentions the Situation at Shiaba briefly as well. Things sounded pretty desperate for the Livingstons at Ross of Mull and other tenants. No doubt about it.
Curiously I found a Catharine Livingston age 50 pauper living with a Mcgilverary family in KIlfinichen Parish in the 1871 census. Age is off but think it actually the daughter Catharine that remained behind in Ross of Mull to look after her impoverished and elderly parents Donald and Cirsty. I noticed that the family were at a place like Ardtun in Kilfinichen Parish 1871 but I could not find it on the map of Ross. Donald lived to be a good age of 85 and Cirsty 81 which makes me think that though in a state of poverty some members of the community were providing them with the ability to maintain themmselves. Id like to think that anyways. No old age pension for them I guess. Amazingly some people seem hell bent on dragging us back to this kind of Charles DIcken's like world.
regards
Donald
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Canadian Livingstone
- Posts: 2773
- Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm
Re: James Livingston
Hi John,
Yes I noticed that Cirsty Livingston was visiting the residence of William Vass and family in 1861 and is listed as a grandmother.
Not very often but sometimes you get someone listed twice in a Scottish census. She is also listed with husband Donald in the same census.
regards,
Donald
Yes I noticed that Cirsty Livingston was visiting the residence of William Vass and family in 1861 and is listed as a grandmother.
Not very often but sometimes you get someone listed twice in a Scottish census. She is also listed with husband Donald in the same census.
regards,
Donald
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jmlivingstone
- Posts: 533
- Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm
Re: James Livingston
Hi Donald,
I tracked Ardtun or Aird Tunna), down to a little north-east of Bunessan, Knocken is, I believe another hamlet in the area,
John
I tracked Ardtun or Aird Tunna), down to a little north-east of Bunessan, Knocken is, I believe another hamlet in the area,
John
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Canadian Livingstone
- Posts: 2773
- Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm
Re: James Livingston
Hi John,
Ok then Ardtun and Ardtunknocken or whatever is was in the 1851 and 1861 census makes some sense.
regards,
Donald
Ok then Ardtun and Ardtunknocken or whatever is was in the 1851 and 1861 census makes some sense.
regards,
Donald
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deblivingstone
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:41 pm
Re: James Livingston
Hi Donald & John
I've been following the conversations and was hoping to have James Livingston placed somewhere in a tree. I agree that he must be related to Angus Livingston somehow.
What about a DNA test? Do you think that will help at this point? My husband is willing to do it if you think it will be beneficial.
Deb
I've been following the conversations and was hoping to have James Livingston placed somewhere in a tree. I agree that he must be related to Angus Livingston somehow.
What about a DNA test? Do you think that will help at this point? My husband is willing to do it if you think it will be beneficial.
Deb
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Kyle MacLea
- Posts: 1043
- Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:54 am
- Location: New Hampshire, USA
- Contact:
Re: James Livingston
DNA test will certainly help prove connections to other known lines, Deb! If you want more details, let me know and I'm happy to send them your way!
Kyle=
Kyle=
Kyle S. MacLea
Clan Society Life Member; DNA Project Co-Admin
New Hampshire, USA
kyle -dot- maclea -at- gmail -dot- com
Clan Society Life Member; DNA Project Co-Admin
New Hampshire, USA
kyle -dot- maclea -at- gmail -dot- com
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jmlivingstone
- Posts: 533
- Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm
Re: James Livingston
Deb,
It's a known fact that Angus & Margaret had a baby born 1816, the OPR states this baby was a daughter, the registrar managed to neglect to register a christian name, if they could get that wrong, it does not need too much of a stretch of the imagination, that they could also have got the babies sex wrong.
Keith from Australia came up wih James in his research a few years ago, I'm not too sure where he got the info from, but given that most of what Keith found, matches what I have found, I have no reason to doubt his info is probably accurate.
The date in 1816, would be close to the birth date of James, & although I cannot prove it, I've almost convinced myself, that James is most likely a son of Angus & Margaret, DNA testing would probably help prove or disprove this theory.
When you think on it, why else would James be with the family at Colonsay ??
A good example of the use of DNA testing results, until I got testing done, I was always under the impression my family originated from the Linlithgow area of Scotland, it was only after having testing done, I could prove this side of the family originated from Mull, so in my opinion, DNA testing was well worth the expense,
John
It's a known fact that Angus & Margaret had a baby born 1816, the OPR states this baby was a daughter, the registrar managed to neglect to register a christian name, if they could get that wrong, it does not need too much of a stretch of the imagination, that they could also have got the babies sex wrong.
Keith from Australia came up wih James in his research a few years ago, I'm not too sure where he got the info from, but given that most of what Keith found, matches what I have found, I have no reason to doubt his info is probably accurate.
The date in 1816, would be close to the birth date of James, & although I cannot prove it, I've almost convinced myself, that James is most likely a son of Angus & Margaret, DNA testing would probably help prove or disprove this theory.
When you think on it, why else would James be with the family at Colonsay ??
A good example of the use of DNA testing results, until I got testing done, I was always under the impression my family originated from the Linlithgow area of Scotland, it was only after having testing done, I could prove this side of the family originated from Mull, so in my opinion, DNA testing was well worth the expense,
John
Last edited by jmlivingstone on Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Canadian Livingstone
- Posts: 2773
- Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm
Re: James Livingston
Hi Debbie,
That would be fantastic if your husband is interested. Kyle Maclea who is our North American Clan Commissoner is also involved with the Clan Societie's ongoing DNA project along with coordinator Andrew Lancaster and I understand from them that over 100 Livingstons have already been tested included a Livingston cousin of mine. Yes the test would almost certainly establish whether or not your husband's dna marker results are a close match to those of John's who is a descendant of Angus Livingstone and Margaret Hall who lived at Uragaig, Colonsay circa 1841 with their known children and your James Livingston and Malcolm and Christina (Christie) MacMillian. The fact that James and the Macmilllans were both married a year apart at Colonsay, show up with old Angus and family and then ended up turning up in Ontario can be no coincidence but I can think that comparing your husband's DNA with that of John Livingston's previous test results in the Project can only help to provide some possible answers to this Livingston family mystery. It willl not only prove whether you are related to Angus but other Livingstons in the project your husband is a close match to or not.
Kyle who is one of the coordinators of the DNA project can fill you in with the details. Its done through Familytreedna who offers genealogy based DNA testing in the states and a number of other clans and families are also being tested by this company. They work with a lab in texas and take several weeks to get the results. THe Familytreedna people seem quite organized and professional. The response to the Clan having a genealogical DNA project has been good judging by the number of people over the last five years that have participated. It would be very interesting to find out if your husband is indeed a cousin of John's.
regards,
Donald
That would be fantastic if your husband is interested. Kyle Maclea who is our North American Clan Commissoner is also involved with the Clan Societie's ongoing DNA project along with coordinator Andrew Lancaster and I understand from them that over 100 Livingstons have already been tested included a Livingston cousin of mine. Yes the test would almost certainly establish whether or not your husband's dna marker results are a close match to those of John's who is a descendant of Angus Livingstone and Margaret Hall who lived at Uragaig, Colonsay circa 1841 with their known children and your James Livingston and Malcolm and Christina (Christie) MacMillian. The fact that James and the Macmilllans were both married a year apart at Colonsay, show up with old Angus and family and then ended up turning up in Ontario can be no coincidence but I can think that comparing your husband's DNA with that of John Livingston's previous test results in the Project can only help to provide some possible answers to this Livingston family mystery. It willl not only prove whether you are related to Angus but other Livingstons in the project your husband is a close match to or not.
Kyle who is one of the coordinators of the DNA project can fill you in with the details. Its done through Familytreedna who offers genealogy based DNA testing in the states and a number of other clans and families are also being tested by this company. They work with a lab in texas and take several weeks to get the results. THe Familytreedna people seem quite organized and professional. The response to the Clan having a genealogical DNA project has been good judging by the number of people over the last five years that have participated. It would be very interesting to find out if your husband is indeed a cousin of John's.
regards,
Donald
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Canadian Livingstone
- Posts: 2773
- Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm
Re: James Livingston
Hi John,
Keith's Livingston ancestors were definitely closely connected to our specific Mull/Morvern/Western Argyll group of Livingstons. We know that for certain. He is likely related to your Livingstons and distant relation of mine apparently. I am hoping we can determine whether or not that is true. Havent heard from Keith in a while. Have you?
regards,
Donald
Keith's Livingston ancestors were definitely closely connected to our specific Mull/Morvern/Western Argyll group of Livingstons. We know that for certain. He is likely related to your Livingstons and distant relation of mine apparently. I am hoping we can determine whether or not that is true. Havent heard from Keith in a while. Have you?
regards,
Donald