James Livingston

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Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2773
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Jewel,

Yes I too was wondering who Donald Livingston and Mary Graham of Colonsay were and what their original family origins were in Western Argyllshire. I was not able to connect them with Donald and Margaret Livingston after 1829 when they must of left Shiaba, Ross of Mull presumingly for a croft at Urigaig/Uragaig, Colonsay where they are recorded in the 1841 Census as living at.

regards,

Donald
jmlivingstone
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by jmlivingstone »

Hi Donald,

Another few names I came across while looking for the illusive James, again, probably nothing to do with James, but as they emigrated from Colonsay to PEI, they may be of interest to someone,

1. Margaret Livingstone b. 1774 & Mary Livingstone b. 1755, emigrated on a ship called Spencer in 1806.

2. John Livingstone b. 1793 - 1864, m. Margaret McLeod, emigrated 1840.

The term ''Keeper'',is an abbreviation for gamekeeper, this person looked after, fishing, & other game, like grouse and pheasant etc., he would be employed by the local laird or squire.

I am still a bit puzzled at Angus being a Chelsea Pensioner, although, I suppose as you could sign on at around 12 years old, he could have had 15 years military service in by 27 or 28 years old.

John
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2773
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi John,

Like you I am wanting more info as to Angus Livingston's career in Army, though I think I am sold on the notion he was a brother of Dawn Livingstone's ancestor Donald Livingston and Cirsty Campbell who also lived in South West Mull of Ross and a few years in a croft at Kilpatrick where Angus also lived. Donald's eldest son named Neil by the way perhaps further indicating his father was Neil the Keeper who had two sons ANgus age 4 and Donald age 2 at Shiaba at Ross at Mull in 1779. As you have suggested the census info that your ancestor Angus is 60 in 1841 is likely incorrect. More likely he is closer to 65.
Perhaps the census taker was being kind. See my updated posting on page 4 of this re James Livingston series re titled ANgus and Donald Livingston of Ross of Mull for more interesting information on the subject.
I am surprised Angus did not enlist in the late 1700's as a young man and remain in the army for the Napoleonic War campaigns. Instead it seems that is out of the army well before 1815 judging by the number of children he had between 1802 and 1816. Its just a guess but I am assuming he was in the army only briefly from the the late 1700's to about 1801 and then got married in Glasgow and following the birth of the first child he took his wife Margaret Hall or Hale back to his homeland of south western Ross of Mull. Sometime between 1829 and 1841 he leaves Ross of Mull for Colonsay. But part of this is just a guess.

As for how he could collect be a Chelsea Pensioner with such a short duration of service, you might want to ask an expert on the Chelsea Pension records. Perhaps he was severely wounded in the line of duty and given an army pension. I dont think it has anything do with being an old veteran receiving a pension like some might presume. I think you could be young soldier and be on the Chelsea Pension List. Interesting though we have not find him on the list as yet and perhaps his information is for some reason missing. Dont know.

You might be interested to know that I found some more info useful to the study of that other ANgus Livingston that settled in Boularderie, Bras d'or Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, Canada in 1819. His petition for land in Canada indicated he served as a sailor on Her Majestie's ship The Royal George during the Napoleonic War period. I was able to find out that of several vessels over the years named Royal George only one served during the Napoleonic War as a flagship of the Channel Fleet guarding against French vessels making surprise attacks on British vessels along the channel. Also I found that that records for ship including pay records that might list individual sailors by name survive for many of the years the ship was in action during the Napoleonic War period. Most of these records would at best mention the officers but it would apppear that one might get lucky with a list at least mentioning this other Angus Livngston. As to your ANgus who was in the British Army there might be some other avenues besides the Chelsea Pension records. There are other military lists he might show up in. The help of an archivist or someone experienced in searching out old miltary records would prove to be very helpful. Kudos for the British Archives for making an effort to create a searchable data base of old military records, but so far I dont see your ancestor ANgus.

regards,

Donald
jmlivingstone
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by jmlivingstone »

Donald,

Another factor which would probably support the theory of Angus & Donald being brothers, is the spelling of the name Cirsty, in most cases it appears to be an abbreviation of Christine or Christina. in this case it is the actual name registered on the OPR.
Could be it is a family thing spelling Cirsty this way, most folk appear to abbreviate it to Chirsty, not conclusive proof, but I suppose it could be an indicator we are on the right track.

I had www.scotsfamily.com., have a look for further info on Angus & his military service, they found nothing, I'll contact the Chelsea Pensioners direct, see if they come up with anything.

I also had a look at the Finlaggan site, they have quite a few of the family listed, they have a total of 425 Livingstones total listed, I'll have to purchase a subscription to get access to the details, should be worth the expense,

John
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2773
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi John,
I think a British soldier in those times may have received the pension which was apparently administed by the Chelsea Hospital in two ways: either after having served 20 yrs or more or if they received an injury while in the service. My sense is that your ancestor Angus Livingston served not much more than five years max in his early years and then at the height of the Napoleonic Wars we find that he probably married Margaret Hall or Hale in Glasgow in the early 1800's and for every couple of years thereafter a child is born most of them born upon his return to South Western Ross at Mull. So with children born regulary from early 1800 to about 1816 following the end of the Napoleonic War it would seem that your ancestor spent most his time having children through the height of the Napoleonic War. Now there is a big gap between the child born abt. 1816 and then the last apparent child of ANgus and Margaret born in 1829. Perhaps this indicates that Angus re entered the Army following the end of the Napoleonic War. So I suspect either he was in the British Army for several years prior to 1800 as a young private perhaps recruited into a highland regiment as many Argyll lads were in the late 1700's and or he did a longer stretch of miltary service with a regiment as an older soldier sometime between the 1816 to 1829 period. And perhaps at some point in his miltary career he was wounded and thereafter received a pension which was actually administered by the Chelsea Hospital. I guess any one of these scenarios is a possibility. Whatever the situation the baptismal records most of them taking place in the remote south west corner of Ross of Mull in Western Argyllshire from the early 1800's about every couple of years to 1816 indicates to me that your ancestor essentially did not serve during most of the Napoleonic Wars if at all.

Yes good point. I notice this nickname Cirsty also in the Colonsay records for the Christy Livingston that married Mr. Malcolm McMillan in 1840 and who is referred to as Christina McMillan in the 1841 Scottish census when she is residing with husband Malcolm at ANgus Livingson and Margaret Halls residence at Urigaig or Uragaig Colonsay-Jura along with James, Hugh and Ann Livingston.



regards,

Donald
jmlivingstone
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by jmlivingstone »

Hi Donald,

Some more info on the family of Donald Livingstone of Mull, or actually the family of his son John, I've made no attempt to verify any of the below, all info is contained in Ancestry family trees,

1. John b. 1814 @ Assopol, d. 01.05.1883 @ Glenelg, Ontario, m Christine Campbell b. ab. 1785.
2. Elizabeth b.1838 Mull, d. 31.12.1910 @ Boissevain, Manitoba.
3. Alexander b. 1840 Mull, d. 14.09.1914 Canada.
4. Sarah Anne b. 04.1848 Mull, d. 05.02.1915 @ Priceville,Ontario.
5. Christina b. 10.04.1852 Ontario, d.05.1900 @ Grey County, Ontario.
6. Bessie b. 1858 @ Durham, Ontario.
7. John Campbell b. 156 Ontario, d. 15.10.1886 Ontario.
8. Neil b. 02.12.1843 Mull, d. 02.02.1927 @ Glenelg, Ontario, m. Janet McQuarrie 20.03.1879 @ Bentinck Township, Grey County, Ontario.
9.Jack no other info.

John
jmlivingstone
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by jmlivingstone »

Hi Donald,

I'm going to admit defeat on who James at Colonsay 1841 is, I'll contact www.scotsfamily.com later today, see if they can come up with answer, I've literally looked at 1000's of different areas with no success, lets hope they have more luck than we've had so far.

I will not be in the least surprised if he does turn out to be a son of Angus & Margaret, it's only a few months since we found out about their first daughter Mary, so who knows,

John
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2773
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi John,
Regarding family info of Donald Livingston born abt. 1776 or 1777? probably at Shiaba, Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon Parish, Ross of Mull married to Christy Campbell thanks for this info. (I think they meant that Christy was the wife of Donald Livingston in the information you found and not John)
So looks like the whole lot of Donald Livingston and Christy Campbell's children went to Ontario. I think that was pretty much the family history report that Dawn Livingstone shared with me a few years ago. She is a direct descendant of this Donald and Christy and one of his sons you have listed there. I told her of the research being done here regarding ANgus and Donald and to check out the forum. Dawn's ancestor later resettled elsewhere in Ontario in the same township as my Morvern ancestor Miles Livingston b. 1775 by coincidence so she knew something in the local history about Miles and his youngest son Daniel a millwright my great-great Uncle in particular though we arent related. Just of the

same highland clan.

Well I look at it this way. I am glad that we found Debbie Livingston's ancestor James living with your ancestor Angus Livingston and Malcolm McMillan of Colonsay as it pretty much gives us convincing evidence a family connection between her James and your ANgus. The only downside to this is that I cant say 100% that James is his son given the lack of info in the Colonsay birth records regarding James and it is always a possibility he is his nephew. I would wager he is one or the other. I am wondering how both James born abt. 1816? and Christina (Livingston) McmIllan wife of Malcolm are related to Angus but I have no doubt they are either a nephew and a niece of Angus and Margaret in COlonsay or their children. I have looked at this inside out and every which way so I too am frustrated but I dont think that it can be reconstructed or reanalysed with any new information we have not already seen. In any event as I said I am happy to see that we have been able to deduce that there is a family connection between the James Livingston who went to Ontario Canada and your Angus Livingston whatever it actually was and of course that we have pretty much proven that Angus and Donald Livingston both of south western Ross of Mull in the early 1800's prior to Colonsay are almost certainly brothers and the sons of Neil Livingston gameskeeper residing circa 1779 at Shiaba, Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon Parish, Ross of Mull, Argyllshire. That certainly is something to be happy about.
l

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2773
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi John,

THink I am beginning to get a better sense of the geography in regards to your Livingston family of Ross of Mull. In terms of Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon parish, I think Angus and Donald and family were actually situated in Kilvickeon Parish which probably make sense given that Kilvickeon is on the map of south western Ross of Mull. In the records I have they are listed as being in Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon Parish which I realize it not too precise but is the way they list it. Old Kilvickeon Parish if I understand correctly includes the west part of Ross of Mull with the west part bordering Iona Parish where interestingly I found a couple of Livingstons. Dont know if they are any relation. There roots are apparently somewhere in KIlfinichen Parish and that is about all I know. More on them later.
regards,

Donald
jmlivingstone
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: James Livingston

Post by jmlivingstone »

Morning Donald,

Some info I came across on Kilfinichen & Kilvickeon,

Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon, a parish in the Mull district of Argyllshire. Comprising the south-western parts of Mull island, the inhabited islands of IONA, EARRAID, and INCHKENNETH, and several neighbouring uninhabited islets, it contains the villages of BONESSAN and lona, each with a post office under Oban, and enjoys communication by means or the steamers sailing from Oban round Mull. It comprehends several of the numerous parishes into which Mull was anciently divided, and formed only a part of the one parish into which all that district was thrown at the Reformation, but was curtailed by the separate erection of Kilninian and Kilmore parish in 1688, and of Torosay parish about 1728, when it took the name of Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon, from two churches which stood on the central and southern parts of the coast of its Mull mainland section. It is naturally divided, in that section, into the north-eastem district of Brolass, the central district of Ardmeanach, and the south-westem district of Ross; and, in consequence of the last of these districts being the most prominent of the three, the entire parish is often called Ross. It is bounded N and E by Torosay, and on all other sides by the Atlantic Ocean. The Burgh detached portion of the parish of Torosay, comprising 1307 acres, and situated on the north side of the entrance to Loch Scridain, was transferred by the Boundary Commissioners in 1891 to the parish of Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon, but a portion of that parish situated on the west shore of Loch Buy was in turn transferred to the parish of Torosay. The utmost length of the parish, from NE to SW, is 23 miles; its utmost breadth, exclusive of the islands, is 18 miles; and its area prior to 1891 was 62,730 acres, of which 2485¾ were foreshore and 302½ water. The islands and all the prominent places and objects are noticed in separate articles; and the coasts, the surface, and the general features of the Mull mainland section are noticed in the article MULL. Loch-na-Keal, containing Inchkenneth island, forms nearly all the boundary with Kilninian and Kilmore parish; a line of mountain watershed forms the boundary with Torosay; a reach of hills, of no great height, forms the inner boundary of Brolass district; and Loch Scridain forms most of the boundary between Ardmeanach and Ross districts. ...
Extract from Groome's Ordnance Gazetteer of Scotland (2nd Edition), c. 1896

John
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