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Re: James Livingston

Postby deblivingstone » Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:28 pm

Hi Donald & John,

Here is a portion of Mary McMillan Livingstone's obit from the Mount Forest Confederate Jan 13, 1910:

"A very old and respected resident of Arthur Township died in Toronto on the 5th inst. Deceased, whose maiden name was Mary McMillan, was born in the Highlands of Scotland about 86 years ago. She was married to James Livingston there in May 1842. Next year they came to Canada, living first in the township of Eldon, Victoria County, for about seven years. Then they came to Arthur Township.......(after listing the children is as follows)...There are living also a brother, Mr. Malcolm McMillan, Toronto, and a sister, Mrs. Thos. Vogan, Wiarton...."

I haven't been able to find anything on this Malcolm Mcmillan, however, I found a marriage for an Annie McMillan and Thomas Vogan Oct 5, 1896. It states her parents were Donald McMillan and Catherine McMillan. It says her estimated birth year was 1852 in Scotland. That's quite an age difference from sister Mary who was born 1826? Also, these people did live in Wiarton.

Deb
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:59 pm

Hi Debbie,
Most significant the Canadian info you have mentions that James livingston wife Mary McMillan had a brother Malcolm McMillan of Toronto.
I think I know where we can find Mary Mcmillan's brother Malcolm you mentioned in the earlier Scottish Census of 1841. His wife I am pretty certain was Christina (Christy) Livingston daughter of Angus Livingston and Margaret Hall of Uragaig,Colonsay.


1841 Scottish Census Colonsay (At that time in Parish of Jura)
Urigaig (actually Uragaig where Angus and family resided in one of the crofts)
Angus Livingston b.1781 army pensioner
Margaret Livingston b.1786
James Livingston b. 1816 (single) (I am almost certain this is your ancestor James Livingston who married Mary McMillan the next year at Colonsay)
Hugh Livingston b. 1821
Ann Livingston b. 1826
Malcolm McMillan b. 1813
Christina McMillan b. b. 1816
Duncan McMillan b. 1840
(Must have been very crowded in that small croft)
The Colonsay parish records indicate that Malcolm McMillan married a Christy Livingston on January 26,1840. Obviously this info refers to the above mentioned Malcolm and Christina McMillan in the 1841 Census record. In addition to Duncan, one other child is mentioned, recorded in the Colonsay baptismal records Donald baptised October 11,1842. No further baptisms in Colonsay and dont see this family in the 1851 Census in Scotland. Did they leave Colonsay with James Livingston and his wife Mary McMillan for Canada. Interesting theory but I am not certain I can prove it though it seems clear enough from the obituary info of Mary's years later that her brother a Malcolm McMillan clearly was a resident in Toronto Canada. So he must have left for Canada sometime after 1842.

The James Livingston in this census record I assume then is the one that married this Malcolm Livingstons sister Mary in 1842 and therefore would be his brother in law. I did not notice before that you had info that Mary Livingston had a brother Malcolm Livingston or at least I did not make a connection with the Malcolm in the census info at Uragaig. I assume then that this is the Malcolm McMillan that went to Canada sometime after 1841. So you may be looking for a Christian or Christina McMillan b. abt. 1816 in Ontario in the 1851 and after census records along with Malcolm and a son Duncan born abt. 1840 or 1841.

From Uragaig, Colonsay you can see Ross of Mull in the distance where Angus Livingston of Uragaig was born. It is suspected that old Angus Livingston of Uragaig was born at Shiaba,Ross of Mull where he lived with his father Neil Livingston and brother Donald in the 1770's according to the 1779 Argyll Census. The birthdate of 1780 for Angus as calculated from the 1841 Scottish census is probably not accurate.

regards,

Donald
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Re: James Livingston

Postby deblivingstone » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:28 pm

Hi Donald,

This Malcolm McMillan fits your theory. What do you think of the above mentioned sister Annie McMillan who married Thos Vogan and had her parents mentioned in her marriage. Maybe she was a niece or something and was raised by Mary's family?

Deb
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:28 pm

Hi Debbie,

I dont know any reason why Malcolm and Mary McMillan that we are theorizing here could not of had a sister Ann. I dont know the reason for the apparent significant age difference between Mary and Ann McMillan (Mrs Thomas Vogan) you mentioned, but it seems fairly certain that she had a brother Malcolm and sister Ann that apparently also left Colonsay at some point in the 1800's for Ontario,Canada. I dont seem to see this Malcolm McMillan and his wife Chisty (christina) Livingston in the subsequent 1851 Census for Colonsay so perhaps they also left for Canada before 1851 as did Malcolm McMillan's sister Mary McMillan and her husband James livingston.

Just a thought but perhaps the age difference between Mary and Ann can be explained by their father marrying twice. Perhaps Ann was a half sister through a second marriage of Mary's father when he was considerably older.

regards,

Donald
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Re: James Livingston

Postby jmlivingstone » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:54 am

Deb/Donald,

I just came across part of a printout on Malcolm McMillan & Christina Livingstone, this came from www.mullfamilies.com, a site that unfortunately has now shut down.

This shows Christina as having been born at Kifinichen & Kilvickeon 1809, it does not say who her parents were, at least it does confirm she originated from Mull.

It also lists two children, Duncan McMillan, b. abt. 1840, & Donald McMillan, b. 11 Oct. 1842 both at Colonsay & Oronsay.

As Michael who operated the site, only included families born on Mull, or those where part of the family originated from Mull, it is safe to conclude that Christina was definitely from Mull.

Cirsty, daughter of Angus & Margaret, married Peter McArthur, 18 Dec. 1827, when she was around 17-18 years old, they had two children, Ann baptised 17 Oct.1829 & John 18 Sept.1831, both were born on Mull, Cirsty then died between 1831-33 on Mull.

I had my doubts about the accuracy of this information, so I sent it to www.scotsfamily.com, who came up with the same answer, given this, I tend to think James & Christina are possibly nephew & niece of Angus & Margaret.

Possibly family of Donald, who we have thought for some time, could easily be a brother of Angus,

John
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:42 pm

Hi John,
Thanks for your information.
I think it very likely that all of these Livingstons and Macmillans residing with old Angus Livingston and his wife Margaret at the Uragaig,Colonsay family croft in 1841 were actually born a short distance away at Ross of Mull. Whatever the ANgus Livingston family connection was with the James Livingston and the Macmillans who were residing with him there seems to have been some connection. As you know I have been also scratchiing my head more than a bit on this one, but it does seem pretty clear to me that Debbie's husband's ancestor James Livingston who married Mary McMillan in Colonsay in 1842 and subsequently went to Ontario Canada is the James Livingston that is residing in 1841 with the army pensioner ANgus Livingston and a Macmillan couple. Debbie's Canadian family research on Jame and Mary leaves no doubt this is the same family group. I find it quite interesting how Debbie's husband ancestor ends up connected with old Angus Livingston of Uragaig, Colonsay who we have discussed on this forum of and on for the past few years in regards to your and Keith's ancestral line. I wonder if old Angus Livingston of Colonsay appreciates all the attention he is getting.

On the face of it the age of the Christina Livingston Mcmillan b. abt. 1816 in the 1841 Census info does not seem to match that of the Christina Livingston born abt. 1809 in the Ross of Mull parish records stated I think to be the daughter of Angus and Mary. So she could be possibly a neice of Angus Livingstons from one of his brothers. I think he actually more than one by the way. My sense was that Donald and ANgus son of Neil might of had a couple more brothers born shortly after them from my research on later born COlonsay Livingstons. People tended to large families in those times.

No I am pretty certain that this James Livingston and Christina Livingston McMillan are not children of Donald Livingston and his wife Cursty of Ross of Mull. I am in contact with a descendant who has done a detailed family tree chart of Donald and Cursty's children, many of whom settled also in Ontario Canada, but in a different part than James Livingston and Mary McMillan. I found it sad that while Donald and Cursty's children left Ross of Mull for Ontario Canada in the 1850's or 1860's and likely prospered, old Donald and his wife Cursty remained at Ross of Mull living their remaining years and old age in extreme poverty.
regards,

Donald
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Re: James Livingston

Postby jmlivingstone » Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:32 pm

Donald/Deb,

I am 100% certain we are on the right track, we have the correct family, all we need now, is to confirm exactly who is who,

John
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:07 am

Hi John,

And to make this whole Angus Livingston/James Livingston of Colonsay thing all the more intruiging for me it appears that my Morvern Livingston ancestor Miles Livington b.1775 and this James Livingston of Colonsay but probably originally from nearby Ross of Mull/Mull appears to share a close ancestral connection according to the latest information. THere is also a Donald Livingston born abt. 1751 in Morvern but whom lived for a time in Mull and who settled in Prince Edward Island, Canada in 1806 who is the next closest connected ancestrally to my ancestor Miles Livingston, but apparently not as close as this James Livingston was.

My great-great-great grandfather Miles Livingston b. 1775 was a skilled barrelmaker and boatbuilder. He left Morvern as a young man and ended up on the Isle of Islay where he may have learned his barrel making trade for the whiskey industry on the Island. In June of 1812 he left Bowmore,Isle of Islay with his recently married second wife Janette Livingston also a morvern Livingston a made their way by the Schooner "Staffa" to the port of SLigo Ireland where Lord Selkirk awaited with a Hudsons Bay Company vessel the "Robert Taylor" to take his recruited colony servants and settlers to Hudsons Bay in British North America. From there the party would then journey southward about 700 miles to the forks of the Red River where Selkirk's settlement was to be established. My ancestor Miles was a boat builder and settlement record indicated he was employed by paid by Selkirk for the first year and then became a settler/farmer having received a grant of land from Selkirk in 1814. THe journal of the settlement surveyor, Peter Fidler indicates that the lumber arrived for Miles Livingston's permanent log home by September of 1814. Hostililites with a rival fur trading company opposed to the Hudsons Bay Company allowing Lord Selkirk to settle on this land escalated into a violent confrontation with the colony and with Miles Livingston and other settlers leaving for Upper Canada (Ontario) in June of 1815. So Miles his wife Janette, daughter Nancy (my great-great grandmother) and son Hugh embarked in a North West Company fur traders canoe on a tedious 1000 mile voyage by lakes and rivers, passing by ancient pine forests, thick with gigantic trees as yet undisturbed by loggers or settlers and enduring heat, thundershowers and the scourge of biting insects.Although Miles Livington indicated to the parish minister at Bowmore,Islay that he was born at Morvern there is also a baptismal record for a Miles Livingston baptised in 1775 son of Donald Livingston of Lismore Parish in Lismore Parish book. I have wondered if Miles could have been mistaken as to the parish he was born in as Morvern and Lismore are beside each other. The other boat builder who accompanied Miles to Canada on the Robert Taylor, Donald Livingston b. abt. 1786 son of Neil Livingston also stated that he was born in Morvern parish so it seems to me they likely both were but who knows for sure. One of those family history mysteries. The Red River Colony records state Miles Livingston was from Mull but that was likely based on the fact that the settler group that he travelled with was largely made of up Mcleans and others from Mull who had travelled from the port of Tobermory.

regards,

Donald
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Re: James Livingston

Postby deblivingstone » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:29 am

Donald/John,

I wonder if we have the right Malcolm McMillan. The one living with Angus' family in 1841 was born about 1813 and according to Mary McMillan's obit in 1910, her brother Malcolm McMillan was living in Toronto. That would make him 97. It is certainly possible but I don't know. What do you think?

Deb
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:51 pm

Hi Debbie,

I know. I wondered that myself. There could be two Malcolm's I suppose connected to this Colonsay family group that were connected to these Colonsay Livingstons we have located in the census. One of the problems which is unfortunate is that I cant find this Malcolm Livingston of Toronto circa 1910 in the 1901 Census. So I think we need to try and find him in the 1911 census and establish his birth date acccording to the 1911 info. If I couuld have found him in the 1871 or 1881 census i was hoping to determine who his wife was and his approximate birth date which support or rule out him as the Malcolm in that 1841 Census. I will check the 1911 Census index. Perhaps the obituary is wrong though. Consider that by 1841 all of these Livingstons and McmIllans were in their twenties or late teens so I wondering how they would not very old by 1910. So any of them including Mary herself were quite old by 1910. Could this Malcolm be a nephew. Anyways I will see what Malcolm McMillans can be found in Toronto in 1911.


regards,

Donald
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