James Livingston

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Re: James Livingston

Postby jmlivingstone » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:41 pm

http://www.deeprootstalltrees.com/Kathy ... htm#i77090

The above link contains info on James Livingstone, his wife & descendants,

John
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Penny » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:11 pm

I must say , I am very excited to have stumbled across this group! Especially when I read on a post that Deb Livingstone made in regards to the family of James Livingstone (weaver) that settled in Mount Forest Ontario .
AND she mentioned Donald his son who had moved to Charlevoix Michigan and married Susan Whitley.
James is my Great great Grandfather.
 His son Donald (aka Dan) and Susan Whitley are the parents to my grandmother Pearl. They came back to Canada  and settled in Conn Ont but eventually moved into Mount Forest. Their house in Mt Forest is now the parking lot of the Presbyterian church. Pearl  married James Albert (Bert) Woodley and they had my Uncle Donald ( named after his grandfather), Douglas, and Doris  (born 1926)who is my Mother.
Donald and Susan also had a son named Roy. His son Donald and Daughter Donna are still here in London, Ont. They are my nom's cousins.
My mother spent her summers with her grandparents. I remember who talking about an Uncle Dunc , Milo,  Angus .
I also have the typed information provided to the family by Katherine Livingstone . I recognized it immediately verbatim on the site here.  So I guess that means somehow I am related to Deb's husband. Interested I  meaning more!!!! :)
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Greg Livingston » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:03 am

Welcome to our Clan MacLea (Livingstone) forum. I am looking forward to seeing more of your discoveries here.
Greg Livingston
Clan Commissioner
Northglenn, Colorado, USA
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:23 pm

Hi Penny,
Update to my earlier message.
We have not heard from Debbie for several years as you can see and what is now significant is that DNA testing done several years ago with a descendant of your ancestor James Livingston, suggests that the Colonsay Livingston family of James Livingston was related in some way to my own nearby Morvern Parish, Argyll Livingston ancestors. It may be possible to confirm with further testing if James Livingston had Morvern ancestry of neighbouring Mull ancestry or both prior to residing in Colonsay given the DNA matching so far. I this continuing with this type of testing it may be possible to get a better sense of James Livingston's earlier ancestral roots in Western Argyllshire.

Several years ago now, as you can see Debbie the wife of a descendant of James Livingston and Mary McMillan married in Colonsay, Argyll contacted our Forum and provided some her husband's Livingston family information regarding their settlement in Canada and some earlier Colonsay, Argyll info. I also see from their Census info for Arthur Township, Wellington County, Ontario, Canada and some later information on your ancestor that Donald Livingston was born January 21, 1855 in Ontario and died in Toronto, York County, Ontario on June 2, 1843. He married Susan Whitley in Arthur Township, Wellington County, Ontario, Canada on January 1, 1880.

Debbie mentioned an earlier family account in Canada from the 1930's in which it is stated that James Livingston being born in 1810 in Mull, and as he was living in Colonsay around the time of his marriage to Mary McMillan which is close to Mull that may be correct, but in the 1841 Census he seems to be a son of Angus Livingston and Margaret Hall of McPhail of Colonsay. I am however not certain that we can be certain of that based just on that census information or a 100 percent certain that is the same James though it seem to be. There i however s no other James Livingston located in Colonsay in the 1841 Argyll Census and the one I mention is living with old Angus Livingston and aJames Livingston and other children of Angus is interestingly enough is a McMillan man who married one of Angus Livingston's daughters. This James Livingston of Colonsay also seems to be of the same general age that your ancestor James Livingston is recorded as in the 1861, 1871, and 1881 Ontario Census records which are in the 1815-1817 range as I recall and not 1810 as the daughter of James Livingston's son Duncan had stated. That being said there is no Argyllshire Scotland birth or baptism record surviving for your ancestor James Livingston so I can't verify for certain whom his parents were. The only thing that is known for certain then is that James was living definitely living in Colonsay near Mull at the time of his marriage on May 15,1842 to Mary McMillan and left Colonsay a short time after their marriage and the birth of their first child for Canada and that it would seem that he was born more in the 1815-1817 range than 1810 that one earlier family account in Canada had stated. John Livingston pointed out to me several years ago that there is an 1816 baptism entry for unnamed daughter born at Shiaba Ross of Mull, Argyll a child of Angus Livingston and Margaret Hall who later lived at Arasaig, Colonsay where there is James Livingsto age 25 single in the 1841 Census and one thought was that could have been actually a boy a son possibly of Angus and Margaret. Supporting this notion is that a year later 1842 your ancestor James Livingston does in fact marry his wife Mary McMillan in Colonsay and it is pretty clear that Colonsay had a number of McMillan family members residing there including in the 1841 one McMillan who was Livingston with the Angus Livingson and Margaret Hall with their family at Colonsay. A marriage record from 1840 in the Colonsay records confirms that a Christie Livingston married a McMillan and this Christie I am pretty certain was Arisaig, Colonsay resident, Angus Livingston and Margaret Hall's daughter. Although Angus and family were living at Colonsay by the early 1840's his children it should be noted were born nearby but at southern Ross of Mull. So definitely James Livingston's Duncan, Donald and Angus Livingston's father was born in Mull more accurately Ross of Mull in all likelihood. Old Angus Livingston was born abt. 1775 in Shiaba Ross of Mull and he and his wife moved around a bit in Ross of Mull where most of their children were born but I noticed that the unidentified child born and baptized in 1816 is interestedly not named, likely an error by the Church of Scotland minister at the time. Every once and while I come across errors in the old parish books. Sometime names written incorrectly etc. The 1930's mentions an Alexander being the father of James Livingston, but I think that is an error. Interestingly the granddaughter of James also refers to a gravestone mentioning "natives of Islay, Argyllshire". Not sure if the granddaughter was referring to the gravestone of James Livingston who died in 1893 I think it was. If so that would suggest that both James Livingston an his wife Mary McMillan who were married in Colonsay in 1842 were both born on the Isle of Islay, Argyll. Unfortunately I dont know if that gravestone still exists and where it is located if it does. So I am not certain that James father was an Alexander Livingston or that he and his wife Mary were natives of the Islay, Argyll. The DNA results of a descendant of James Livingston seems to be consistent with a Livingston of Mull or neigbouring Morvern Parish ancestry.

This was Debbie's original posting information regarding James Livingston and family. Her husband is a descendant of James Livingston as well, as you have probably figured out. She provided us with much valuable information back in 2011 on James Livingston and Mary Mcmillan and here she includes a list of their children as well which includes a Duncan and a Angus.

From Feb. 6, 2011
Thank you for giving me access to the forum. My husband & myself are at a roadblock tracing his particular Livingstone line.
James Livingston was born Feb 1810 on the Isle of Mull on the west coast of Scotland. He married Mary McMillan May 15, 1842 in the parish of Colonsay & Oronsay. This marriage was also recorded in the parish of Jura. James' father was thought to be Alexander Livingston and there was a brother Hugh Livingston. This information was supplied by a granddaughter of James in the 1930's.
James Livingston & Mary McMillan had a daughter Ann Livingston who was born Feb 7, 1843 and was christened June 18, 1843 in the parish of Colonsay.
Within months, they had emigrated to Canada & first settled in Eldon Township, Victoria County, Ontario before settling in Arthur Township, Wellington County, Ontario. James Livingston was a weaver by trade and a Presbyterian in religion. James died Dec 23, 1894 in Arthur Township, Wellington County, Ontario. A death certificate could not be located to determine parents.
Mary McMillan was born in Colonsay in Apr, 1824 and died Jan 5, 1910 Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Their family is as follows:

Ann Livingston- b. Feb 7, 1843 Scotland
Margaret Livingston- b. Feb 10, 1845 Ontario, Canada
Katherine Livingston- b.Sept 19, 1846 Ontario
Duncan M. Livingston- b. May 29, 1848 Ontario
Mary Livingston- b. July 13, 1850 Ontario
Jane Livingston- b. Jan 12, 1853 Ontario
Donald D. Livingston- b. Jan 21, 1855 Ontario - also known as Daniel
Angus Livingston- b. Feb 9, 1857 Ontario
Bessie Livingston- b. Apr 7, 1860 Ontario
James A. Livingston- b. Sept 14, 1865 Ontario



There also is recorded a daughter Sophia born abt. 1864 listed in the families 1871 and 1881 Census info I noticed. Hope this helps. More info later if I find on the children of James Livingston and Mary McMillan. Hopefully Debbie will see your recent message as she may have found some more information since 2011.

regards,

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Historian
Clan Maclea Livingstone
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:24 pm

Hi Penny
Update to this message.
A bit of an update to this original message as indicated in one my later messages posted here, I found a photo and info of James Livingston and his wife Mary McMillan's gravestone where they are buried at Woodland Cemetery, Egremont Township, Grey County, Ontario. They are buried near to their eldest daughter Anne and her husband James Ray and a daughter Bessie Livingston. It does indeed state on the gravestone that that James and Mary are natives of Islay but I suspect that is an error and that it should read natives of Colonsay. I don't think it impossible that the two places could get confused by a family member years after James and Mary had arrived in Canada. Here is a site which has a photo if you have located it already in your research:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/105 ... ivingstone

They were married April 15, 1842 in Colonsay, Argyll but the records were held in Jura, thus the confusion about Jura. The Livingtons I should point out did not actually reside in Jura but in Colonsay, Argyll in the early part of 1840's.
The 1841 Scottish Census for example makes that somewhat confusing as it refers some Colonsay Livingtons as residing in Jura when they are residing in Colonsay. Angus Livingston his wife Margaret and his children for example at the time of the 1841 Census lived at Arisaig, Colonsay.
and that is where James Livingston age 25 born abt. 1816 is recorded in that census.

[b]Known Children of James Livingston and Mary McMillan Work in Progress[/b]
1. Ann Livingston b. Feb. 7, 1843 Colonsay, Argyll, Scotland d. August 4, 1912 m. James Ray Feb. 2, 1870 Wellington County, Ontario
2.Margaret Livingston b. Feb. 10, 1845 Eldon Township,Victoria County, Ontario d. May 8, 1914
3.Catharine Livingston b. Sept. 19,1846 Eldon Township, Victoria County, Ontario d. March 15, 1902
4.Duncan Livingston b. May 29,1848 Eldon Township, Victoria County, Ontario d. January 25, 1941, Mt. Forest, Southgate, Grey County, Ontario m. July 25, 1875 Halton County, Ontario, Mary Boyd Frank b. 1856 d. 1946
5. Mary Livingston b. Feb. 3, 1950 Eldon Township, Victoria County, Ontario d. March 30, 1928
6.Jane Livingston b.January 12, 1853 Arthur Township, Wellington County, Ontario d. April 18, 1932 or 1837 Toronto, York County, Ontario m. Sept. 2, 1875 Tom Austin WIlitts b. 1855 Gloucester England. d. January 4, 1932 Toronto, York County, Ontario
7. Donald Livingston b. January 21, 1855 Arthur Township, Wellington County, Ontario d. June 12, 1943 Toronto, York County, Ontario m.January 1, 1880 Arthur Township, Wellington County, Ontario Susan Whitley b. May 1859 d. 1940
8. Angus Livingston b. Feb. 9, 1857 Arthur Township, Wellington County, Ontario d. Dec 27, 1921 Mt. Forest Southgate, Grey County m. May 3, 1886 Oxford County, Ontario Mary Euphemia Arnott b. July 16, 1857 d. Oct. 28, 1933 Mt. Forest
9.Bessie (Elizabeth) Costley Livingston b. April 7, 1860 Arthur Township, Wellington County, Ontario d. May 15, 1886 Grey County, Ontario
10 Sophia Livingston b. abt. 1864 Arthur Township, Wellington County, Ontario d. Unknown no record of her after 1881 Census with family.
11. James Livingston b. Sept 14, 1865 Arthur Township, Wellington County, Ontario d. Feb. 27, 1945 m. Jeannie McIntyre 10/06/1891 Wellington County, Ontario, Canada
12. Donald Livingston b. abt. 1871 ? Twins?
13 Martha Livingston b. abt. 1871



Jura (Arisaig, Colonsay actually) Argyll 1841 Census
Angus Livingston age 60 (likely Angus rather than Alexander Livingston I would suspect)
Margaret age 55
James 25 abt. 1816 (believed to be born in Mull perhaps Ross of Mull) His gravestone info states he was 85 when he died in 1894 which suggests b.abt 1809 but not his Canadian Census records it should be noted)
Hugh 20 (this is probably the Hugh who was James brother that was mentioned.)
Ann 15
Jen 11
Malcolm Macmillan 25
Duncan Macmillan 6 months
Christina Macmillan 25
Curiously the Colonsay marriage records have one other Livingston who married in the 1840-1842 period and that is a Christy Livingston on 26 01 1840 to none other than a malcolm Macmillan. Then of course your information that your ancestor James married Mary MacMillan on 15/04/1842 It almost looks for certain from the 1841 Jura Angus Livingston census info and this connecting Colonsay Mcmillan Livngston marriage info that your ancestor is actually James Livingston the son of Angus Livngston and his wife Margaret. Other information I have access to clearly indicates that whoever Jame's father was he was likely of Mull or neighbouring Morvern Maclea Livingstone ancestry for certain. So that much is certain.

regards,

Donald
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Re: James Livingston

Postby jmlivingstone » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:32 pm

Hi Donald,

James is still a bit of a mystery to me, I still can find nothing to indicate what his relationship to Angus & Margaret, my 3X g/g parents, actually is, despite about 10 years digging.

I have long assumed James was probably a nephew of Angus.

I noticed on FTDNA TiP report, Michael (Debs husband??) at 12 generations/300 years, has a 90.9% certainty of relationship with myself & at 24 generations/600 years 99.91% certainty at a genetic distance of 67/7.

They also suggest further dna testing.

One thing I am certain of, Cirsty, listed on 1841 Colonsay census, is not a daughter of Angus & Margaret, they certainly had a daughter named Cirsty, b. Oct. 1809, married Peter McArthur Dec. 1827, had a daughter Anne & a son John, but she died 1833-34. Peter remarried twice, & later moved to Australia.

Any Livingstones on Islay prior to about 1842 are not known relations of myself,

John.


Link to 1841 Colonsay census & Alexanders gravestone;

http://www.colonsay.info/text/1841%20census.pdf

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/692 ... o=41809550
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:08 am

Hi John,

I hear what your saying. I am finding it somewhat perplexing and have for a few years now. The feeling that some of the pieces don't quite seem to fit in this puzzle. I feel that way also to be honest. They were married in Colonsay in 1842 and James seems to be living with Angus Livingston who has a McMillan living with him who married a Christina Livingston in 1840 in Colonsay. For that matter in terms of the DNA I don't understand how James Livingston seem to have been closely related to my Livingston family in Morvern and Keith as well while you are at greater genetic distant from my Livingston family. I have however been through family line more than a few times and there is little doubt you are descended from Angus Livingston and Margaret Hale (McPhail) so would have to concede that the DNA testing does seem to challenge my notion that James Livingston of Colonsay is descended from Angus Livingston. If that is the case it is odd that the only James Livingston appearing in Colonsay a year earlier before the 1842 marriage of James Livingston and Mary McMillan is residing with your family and as luck would not does not have any baptism or birth record. So if James the eldest Livingston boy living with your ancestor Angus Livingston at Urisaig, Colonsay is not Angus Livingston's son or his son Hugh Livingston's brother then I wonder who he was. I have attempted without success I guess to make James Livingston and Mary Mcmillan fit with Angus Livingston and his family in Colonsay circa 1841, but no matter how hard I try, there are these problem which and you and I have both struggled with over the years Pieces of puzzle I guess that don't quite fit as they should.

We can't be 100 percent all the information from the 1930's was correct. Some of it is for sure but I am certain it all is regarding James and his father being Alexander. Angus also had a son named Hugh but I can't say for certain that this James is the son of Angus and there are certainly some factors working against that notion. The information that there is a natives of Islay on the tombstone is interesting and I had not noticed that before. Part of the problem is that I have never seen a photo of the gravestone of James Livingston and his wife Mary McMillan, but perhaps it does say that on the gravestone. Hopefully we can find someone who can check that out when the weather gets warmer. I have not yet confirmed that they are at the cemetery where I think they are, but if I can confirm their location it then it is just a matter of finding someone who can check out in person what it says on the stone. From a DNA point of view, it looks like this Livingston family could be relatively closely related to my Livingston family of Morvern origin which is another interesting quirk in the notion that James was a son of Angus Livingston which you are descended from with you being a number of genetic numbers more distant from my Livingston cousin than James Livingston descendant is. So I guess this another reason to as you say doubt that James Livingston was a son of Angus Livingston. I guess we can't escape the fact that the connection with Angus doesn't quite fit even though it seemed to make some sense in the beginning.

There were a number of reasons to suspect that James was a son of Angus livingston and Margaret Hale
1. The fact that the only James Livington apparenly recorded residing in Colonsay a year before James Livingston to Mary Mcmillan of Colonsay married in 1842 in Colonsay. This James was single age 25 and living Angus Livingston his family with a recently married McMillan man who had just wed a Christine Livingston who was just happened to be living at the residence of Angus Livingston and Margaret Hale with their son Hugh, daughters Ann and Jane

2. The age of the James Livingston age 25 at the Angus Livingston residence at Urisaig, COlonsay in the 1841 Scottish Census gives us an approximate birth date of abt. 1816. I then compared that with Canadian Census information for James Livington who settled firstly in Eldon Township, Victoria County Ontario and subsequently Arthur Township, Wellington County, Ontario which each gave an approximate birth date based on the age given that was close enough to approximate 1816 birth date of the solitary James Livingston censused in 1841 on the Isle of Colonsay to make me lean towards the notion that the James Livingston residing with your ancestor Angus Livingston might be his father. And then there was the blank baptism record of a child of Angus livington and magaret Hale indicating a baptism date of 1816 for a child born when they were living at Shiaba, Ross of Mull. Mind you it was said to be a girl but it was blank and I thought it might have a error made by the minister. So rightly or wrongly that is why I thought that this James Livingston living at Urisaig Colonsay in 1841 was the James Livingston who was married a year later in 1842 to a Colonsay McMcmillian named Mary McMillan in Colonsay. I dont know who the Christine Livingston who married the Mcmillan of Colonsay in 1840 is and cant prove for certain that she is a daughter of Angus but for one reason or another she living the next year at the Urisaig Croft of Angus Livingston with her McMillian husband and their young son who birth or baptism is also in the Colonsay records I recall.

3. Regarding the 1810 birth nowhere in the Canadian census record is there any information suggesting he was born in 1810 or 1809. From what I understood he died age 85 in 1894 I think so if that is correct then that give us a birth date of about 1809, but if that is the case it is strange that the census records in Canada don't give an approximate birth date anywhere close to 1809 or 1810 as I recall.

But that being said I am not entirely convinced that Angus of Urisaig, Colonsay was the father of this James either given some of the reasons he may not be.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:02 pm

Hi John,

Rightly or wrongly in my conclusions this was the original information that I located led me to go in a certain direction with this James Livingston research. This 1841 census information connecting a James Livingson age 25 and the McMillans to Angus Livingston and Margaret Hale (McPhail) formerly of Ross of Mull and by then living at Urisaig, Colonsay (Not Jura as census indicates), is perhaps the most perplexing I have encountered in more than 15 years of Livingston family research. It is however I think worth noting how I came up with my original conclusions which I think you rightly enough point out may be wrong regarding Debbie's James Livingston of Colonsay being a son of your ancestor Angus.

1. Jura (Arisaig, Colonsay actually) Argyll 1841 Census
Angus Livingston age 60 (likely Angus rather than Alexander Livingston I would suspect)
Margaret age 55
James age 25 abt. 1816 The gravestone info of the James Livingston who was married to Mary McMillan who settled in Canada in 1843 however states he was 85 when he died in 1894 which suggests b.abt 1809 but for some reason his Canadian Census record info regarding his approximate birth date it should be noted does not match closely with the gravestone information. Debbie pointed out that a granddaughter of James Livingston and Mary McMillan, a daughter of their son Duncan, had been told that her grandfather James Livingston was born in Mull in 1810.
Hugh 20
Ann 15
Jen 11
Malcolm Macmillan 25
Duncan Macmillan 6 months
Christina Macmillan 25
(This is a Christina Livingston who married Malcolm McMillan in Colonsay according to the Colonsay Parish records and subsequently a son Duncan was born. Quite true there is no documentation that this is daughter Christine or Christina you mentioned who the records state was born much earlier to Angus and Margaret Livingston who earlier lived at Ross of Mull but by sometime in the 1830's likely moved to nearby Colonsay where they were residing by the time of the 1841. But this Christina McMillan definitely was a Livingston residing in Colonsay and in 1841 residing with your ancestors Angus and Margaret as this mysterious Jame Livingston born abt. 1816. And of the course the fact that a McMillan family were residing with your ancestor Angus Livingston and his family along with this James Livingston who in 1841 was single and apparently the same general age as the one who settled in Canada with his wife Mary McMillan of Colonsay as shall be shown in the next bit of information out of Canada, made me suspect that I had found a connection between your ancestor Angus Livingston and the James Livington who married Mary McMillan and who was Debbie's husband's ancestor.

2. Debbie indicated that her husband's Livingston family information in Canada confirmed that the James Livingston who married Mary McMillan in 1842 in the Colonsay Church of Scotland records is indeed her husband's ancestors whom eldest child Ann was then born in Colonsay and subsequently by about 1843 the family left for Canada settling in Eldon Township, Victoria County, Canada West (Ontario). This information was confirmed in the 1851 Canada West (Ontario) Census information below
1851 Census Eldon Township, Victoria County, Canada West (Ontario)
James Levingston age 35 (born abt. 1816) Scotland occupation Weaver?
Mary Levingston age 27 b. Scotland
Anne Levingston age 10 b. Scotland
Margaret Levingston age 8 Canada
Catharine Levingston age 6 Canada
Duncan Levingston age 4 Canada
Mary Levingston age 2 Canada

1861 Census Arthur Twp. Wellington County, Canada West (Ontario)
James Livingston age 46 Scotland (born abt. 1815)
Mary Livingston age 34 Scotland
Ann Livingston age 17 Canada
Margaret Livingston age 15 Canada
Catharine Livingston age 13 Canada
Duncan Livingston age 11 Canada
Mary Livingston age 9 Canada
Jane Livingston age 7 Canada
Daniel (Donald) Livingston age 5 Canada (Pennie's ancestor)
Angus Livingston age 3 Canada
Elizabeth Livingston age 1 Canada

1871 Census Arthur Twp. Wellington County, Ontario, Canada
James Livingston age 54 Scotland (born abt. 1817)
Mary Livingston age 45 Scotland
Catharine Livingston age 25 Canada
Duncan Livingston age 24 Canada
Mary Livingston age 20 Canada
Jane Livingston age 17 Canada
Donald Livingston age 15 Canada (Pennie's ancestor)
Angus Livingston age 13 Canada
Betsy Livingston age 10 Canada
Sofia Livingston age 6 Canada
James Livingston age 5 Canada
Donald Livingston age 2/12? (Twins?) Not sure why they named two children Donald but that was recorded in the census information)
Martha Livingston age 2/12? (May be twins?)

1881 Census Arthur Twp. Wellington County, Ontario, Canada
James Livingston age 66 Scotland (born abt. 1815)
Mary Livingston age 57 Scotland
Margaret Livingston age 30 Canada
Mary Livingston age 28 Canada
Jane Livingston age 26 Canada
Angus Livingston age 24 Canada
Elizabeth Livingston age 20 Canada
Sophia Livingston age 16 Canada
James Livingston age 13 Canada
Donald Livingston age 9 Canada Twins?
Mary (should be Martha?) Livingston age 8 Canada?

Although the approximate birth dates derived from the Census records from 1851 to 1881 vary somewhat 1815, 1816 and 1817 you probably see why this information and pattern in the Canadian Census from Debbie's husband's ancestor James Livingston led me to conclude back then that the James Livingston age 25 in the 1841 Scottish Census and appearing to be the eldest son at the time residing with your ancestor Angus Livingston at Urisaig, Colonsay was in fact the same James Livingston who married Mary McMillan in Colonsay in 1842 according to the parish records and who subsequently left Colonsay in 1843. It also appeared to me that the James Livingston that was living with Angus and Margaet Livington and the family at Urisaig Colonsay also left Colonsay sometime after 1841 as he was definitely not residing in Colonsay or elsewhere in Argyllshire that I noticed in the subsequent census of 1851 unless I missed him. So that in conclusion is why I came up with the notion back then that James Livingston age 25 residing with Angus Livingston and his wife Margaret and family including the Malcolm McMillan family at your ancestor Angus Livngstons croft at Urisaig Colonsay near Ross of Mull was the James Livingston who married Mary McMillan and who the following year 1843 settled in Eldon Township, Victoria County, Canada West (Ontario) and later on Arthur Township, Wellington County, Ontario Canada. That being said like you I see some interesting results from the DNA testing that suggests that this family connection between Angus Livingston of Urisaig Colonsay and the James Livingston that settled in Canada in 1843 may not be correct as I originally thought and which does seem to challenge this theory of mine along with some things you mentioned. It is a bit of mystery to me and quite perplexing really. I think I would like take a look at that gravestone of James Livingston in Ontario and confirm if info about "natives of Islay, Argyll" was referring to both James Livingston and his wife Mary McMillan and was at the bottom of their grave stone as took from that 1930's account of a granddaughter of James Livingston that Debbie mentioned. I don't think any of us were thinking that James and his wife Mary originated from the Isle of Islay. I think the information in Canada was that the Livingstons and McMillans were of Colonsay origin certainly married there in 1842 at least but maybe the earlier Livingtons of Wellington County Ontario knew of an earlier Islay connection. Or maybe the granddaughter in the 1930's was misinformed. Locating and looking at that gravestone of James Livingston may at least confirm whether or not the Isle of Islay info is actually on the stone as the Granddaughter of James Livingston appears to state in the 1930's if I understood correctly.

regards,

Donald
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:04 am

Hi John,

It is quite likely we will never know who the James Livingston b. abt. 1816 that was listed with elderly Angus Livingston and his older son Hugh farming Angus Livingston's farmland at Arisaig. I really can't rule out your idea that he might be a relative that the census taker listed as he was his eldest son or something like. I think even more like a distant relative living with Angus if you factor in genetic distance and the close match with the descendants of Jame Livingston with my own Livingston family something which has not been taken into account, but I think which may back your notion that the James living with Angus may not be his son but a Livingston relative of some sort. I have been studying the Islay Livingstons and their DNA results for more than 10 years now and so far there is no connection with the family of this James Livingston who lived at Colonsay who are linked to your own and my cousin's Western Argyllshire DNA match group. So far no Livngstons of Islay origin have been a match with your group. My Livingston ancestor may have lived briefly on Islay as he was a boatbuilder and barrel maker, just before he left for Canada in 1812 and his Morvern cousins also lived on Islay in the early 1800's before also going to Canada, but originally natives of Morvern Parish like my Livingston ancestor. One of the challenges of our own Livingstons DNA group is that Livingstons in the 1800's moved around a bit within Argyllshire. I am trying to sort the Morvern Livingtons from the Mull Livingston in your and my cousin DNA group and have been able to identify at least 4 of the 25 Livingstons as definite Morvern Livingstons and a fourth one very likely. But I have found in that group Mull LIvingstons that lived in Morvern and Movern LIvingstons that lived in Mull for a time so because Movern and Mull are beside one another and because the Morvern and Mull Livingstons are mostly a relatively close DNA matching and matching with the same group in some cases the genetic distances are greater between some Movern and Mull Livingstones and others are much closer in genetic distance. So I the more Mull Livingstons in the future the match with your group you and the other lIvingstons of Mull ancestry will have a better sense probably of different family groups within these Mull Livingstons much as I am know trying to establish with the four or five Livingstons in your group with documented parish info linking their origins to the parish of Morvern rather than neighbouring Mull. One of the highlight of your DNA group was that i was able to locate a Livingston related to famous18t century Jacobite Donald LIvingtone 1728-1816 of Savary, morvern and discovered as I suspected he was a match with the other Livingstons of documented Morvern Livington ancestry in your and my cousins DNA group and also that my Livingston cousin and therefore myself are related relatively closely to this old Donald Livingstone of Savary Morvern who as a young man of 18 rescued the appin banner from the battlefield of Culloden in April of 1746. So somehow my apparent 18th century Killundine, Morvern family connection in turn connects with family of old Donald's father John Livingstone and his wife Anna Mcinnes who are buried at Keil Cemetery in that ornate 18th century highland table tomb which Donald had built for his parents in 1760 I think it was. The wheels are in motion at the moment for the possibility of a 27th Livingston in your DNA group likely apparently of Mull origin if all goes well with the testing and results. As much as possible I have tried to encourage Livingstons of Mull origin to participate in the project and there are a good number of Livingstons of Mull origin and others suspected of being of Mull origin in your group. I have been wondering if the ancestral connections amongst Mull Livingstons goes back more than a few centuries as the maclea ancestors of the Livingstons that lived in Mull and Morvern as well lived in Western Argyllshire lived there for more than several centuries I would think.

After all these years the James Livingston residing with your ancestor Angus Livingston is still something of a mystery to me and at some point I think we have to perhaps accept the notion that with family history research some family information we are searching for we unfortunately will never find.
I think the 18th century German writer and poet Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe said it best:
"The greatest happiness of the thinking man is to have fathomed what can be fathomed and quietly to reverence what is unfathomable."

One other complexity to this James Livingston mystery has emerged I have noticed that I wanted to bring to your attention. There has been some effort in the past on ancestry.com to link James Livingston Sr. of Arthur Township, Wellington County, Ontario Canada who died in 1894 and lived in Western Argyllshire in Colonsay, Argyll and before that likely in Mull and who DNA testing of a descendant has proven to be connected to well known Western Argyllshire highland maclea Livingstone group, instead to a Alexander Livingston and Janet Mark of an old lowland Livington family of Tranent Parish, Lanarkshire. So far the DNA testing of Livingstons connected to Tranent Parish East Lothian Livingstons and in particular Alexander Livingston and Janet Mark have proven not to be a match with any of 3 most common DNA match groups associated with Western Argyllshire Livingstons and having worked for a number of years off an on researching Livingston families connected to Alexander Livingston and Janet Mark of Tranent parish East Lothian that there is highly unlikely there is historically a family connection between this James Livingston of Colonsay and Alexander Livingston and Janet Mark and DNA testing so far I think backs this up. I am sorry no one contacted our Forum regarding this in the past I could have possibly been helpful in terms of proving that there is no connection ancestrally between James Livingston of Colonsay, Argyllshire who married Mary McMillan of Colonsay in 1842, came to Canada in 1843 and who later settled in Arthur Township, Wellington County, Argyllshire. As frustrating as I know it is for those descended from James Livingston and Mary Mcmillan to try and determine who James Livington's parents were ( I know I have tried myself for a number of years as have you) I can tell you with 100 per cent certainty his parents definitely were not Alexander Livingston and Janet Mark of the old lowland Livingston family of Tranent, East Lothian.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2564
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:12 pm

Hi John,


As you mentioned some of Donald Livingston's family did end up in another part of Grey County. As you know I was in touch with Dawn and I should get out her out old research just to refresh my memory on where their children or most of them settled in Ontario. I have not as yet been in touch with anyone else connection to ancestor's brother Donald Livingston b. at Shiaba, Ross of Mull presumingly, but there must a good number of descendants of Donald out there that might be interested in your research of that Shiaba Ross of Mull. There was also Duncan Livingston that did not live too far from Donald and Angus and their father and I have wondered if he have been a younger son of Neil born after that 1779 Argyll list was done. Anyways one family at a time. I will see if I come across any your distant cousins connected Angus Livingston's brother Duncan.

I work with so many Western Argyllshire Livingston that I often need to check my notes or other detailed info to make sure I am the right track with all these families. The sons of James Livingston and Mary McMillan that are buried at Egremont township, Grey County, Ontario I am pretty certain don't have any known close family connection with Donald Livingston the brother of Angus Livingston but DNA testing would certainly indicate a close match, relatively close or more distant match one way or another if a 67 Ymarker test or even better a 111 Y marker test were done. I think we should try and find a Livingston out there descended from Angus Livingston's brother suspected brother Donald and see if they can help in determining what we suspect regarding your Livingston ancestor and theirs having been brothers and a son of that old Neil Livingston of Shiaba. I am willing to do what I can to help facilitate that.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2564
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

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