Clan Maclea/Livingstone and O'Neill connection?

[Steven Meyer]

My name is Steven Meyer, I'm from Sparta, New Jersey. When I was a kid my great grandmother Katherine Livingstone told me that my great-great-great uncle was Dr. David Livingstone. I have the Livingstone Clan crest on my wall that says "Si.Je.Puis" and I've always wondered where the crest came from and what it meant. I've recently begun researching the Livingstones which trace their roots to the Highland Livingstones or Clan Maclea. There seems to be debate on how to clan originated, there's a theory that the clan descended from Dunshleibe son of Aedh Alain O'Neill. I'm curious about the clans connection with the O'Neills and was hoping to get some insight on the topic.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Stephen,
Welcome to the Clan Maclea/Livingstone Forum. As you can imagine many Livingston/Livingstone families have a tradition of being related in some way to Dr. David Livingstone. And Livingstons worldwide have for many years felt a close family bond to one of the greatest historic figures of 19th century Britain who was one of our own. We are always interested in hearing old family tales regarding a possible connection.

Our Clan Maclea Livingstone Webpage features an excellent collection of articles written by our Clan Chief Baron Niall Livingstone of Bachuil which I think will help answer most of your questions in detail regarding the ancient clan origins and also address your questions regarding the Dunsliebhe debate. If you read all of these articles you will be well on your way to a greater understanding of CLan Maclea Livingstone I am certain. You can easily access the Clan Maclea Livingstone Web Page at the top of this forum page.

WHile we are quite certain that our highland Mclea/Livingstone originated from an ancient kindom in the north of Ireland before settling in Western Argyllshire, Scotland ,DNA testing has so far not indicated a connection between our highland Scottish Livingstones and the Irish O'Neils which a 19th century Duke of Argyll suggested. It would appear then as Baron Livingstone has stated that our ancient clan was connected to another Dunsliebhe of some prominence in ancient Ireland but not the one connected to the ancient O'Neils in the North of Ireland.

The Clan Crest you speak of has been for a number of years associated with Livingstons and widely stated to be the Livingston clan crest, but is not actually our official clan crest or that of our highland Chief's family. The official Clan Maclea Livingstone crest as you will see from our web page features St. Molaug holding his sacred staff in one hand and a cross in the other with the motto Cnoc Aingeil. Our Clan Chief Baron Niall Livingstone is the heriditary keeper of ancient Staff of St. Molaug which as been in his familie's possession for many centuries.

regards,

Clan Mclea Livingstone Society Historian
Donald Livingstone Clink

[Kyle MacLea]

Steven,

Welcome to the Forum! We're glad to have you.

I'll reiterate what Donald, our Historian has said.

There are a very few of our DNA lines which are in the same family grouping as the O'Neills, but these are minor lines, and certainly don't represent the Chief's line, the line of Dr David Livingstone, or any of the other major lines. So, I would say any suggestion of descent from the O'Neills seems unlikely. The Chief, Niall Livingstone of Bachuil, has written an interesting analysis of the two Dunshleibes Donald referenced. If you need a link, let me know!

As for the 'lowland' crest, the Chief's own motto and crest echoes a bit of that original crest, but emphasizes the highland character of the clan and its role as Coarbs or successors of St Moluag. The 1743 'Account of McLea' states that there is an ancient relationship between the lowland house of Livingston and the highland MacLeas or Livingston/es. So, while that is not the current crest of the clan or its chief, it has important historical attachments to our clan and I believe should be honored, if not as much as the 'new' crest!

Hope this helps--we'd love to know more about your great-grandmother and her Livingstones, if you know!

Kyle=

[Steven Meyer]

Thank you very much for your responses, the two Dunshleibes mentioned are Dunshleibe Ua Anradhan and Dunshleibe Ua Eochadha from what I read. Dunshleibe Ua Anradhan seems to be the theory that the clan originated from the O'Neills. The other possibility is Dunshleibe Ua Eochanda, which according to Byrne the Ulaid rigdamnai alone used the name Mac Duinnshleibhe. Would Dunshleibe Ua Eochanda be the more probable theory of the clans descent?

[Kyle MacLea]

Good question, Steven. I haven't dug too far into this, but the Chief has:

http://www.clanlivingstone.info/Dunsleve.htm

I'll see if he has thoughts to share!

Kyle=

[Bachuil]

Steven

Welcome to the forum.

I am now convinced that the Anrothan O'Neil lines is a false trail and that there is now no room for doubt that our ancestor was Dunshleibe Ua Eochadha and that we are the the Ulaid rigdamnai. The Brehon law at the time woud make an O'Neil ineligible, the O'Neils were at war with the Ulaids, and the DNA evidence is fairly conclusive. There is almost nothing to support the Anrothan case and a great deal that discounts it as highly unlikely. There is a great deal of evidence to support the Dunshleibe Ua Eochadha case and no evidence at all against it.

Niall, 10th Duke of Argyll opined that it was quite possible that we descended from Anrothan the O’Neill prince who married a Princess of Dalriada, inheriting her lands of Cowal and Knapdale.
This hypothesis has become the perceived wisdom and quite possible has become read as fact.
The argument for our descent from Anrothan is based on:

• 1. The assumption that our name is derived from MacDunshleibe.
  2. That a Dunsleve existed in Cowal in the 1200s .
  3. That the name Molmore used in the 1544 Charter was often used by MacSweens.

A very flimsy case! The case against this theory is this:

• 1. Dunshleibe ua Anradhan was an O’Neill - a tribe at war with the Ulidians, the tribal group of St Moluag.
  2. Dunshleibe ua Anradhan married into the Cenél nGabráin. Given the antipathy between them and the Cenél Loairn, I cannot see how someone of the Cenél nGabráin could become the Coarb of St Moluag, the patron saint of the Cenél Loairn.
  3. Under Brehon law the succession should have gone to someone of the Fine Erluma, (Tribe of the Saint) or the Fine Grin (Tribe of the Land). Anrothan was not from either tribe so would not be eligible to be Coarb of St Moluag.
  4. Anrothan would have O’Neill DNA – and although he married a Princess of the Royal House of Dalriada the Y chromosome is passed down the male line and his descendents would have the O’Neill DNA – not Dalriadic DNA as in the Livingstones of Bachuil.

Dunshleibe Ua Eochadha - 1137
According to Byrne the Ulaid rigdamnai [persons eligible to be king] alone used the name Mac Duinnshleibhe
“So for instance when after 1137 the Dal Fiatach kingship was confined to the descendants of Donn Sleibe Mac Eochada (slain in 1091), the rigdamnai set themselves apart from the rest of the family by using the name Mac Duinnshleibhe (Donleavy)."
In Irish Pedigrees – The Stem of the Dunlevy family, Princes of Ulidia, O'Hart says
“Tuirmach Teamrach, the 81st Monarch of Ireland had a son named Fiach Fear mara, who was ancestor of the Kings of Argyle and Dalriada, in Scotland: this Fiach was also the ancestor of MacDunshleibe and O’Dunsleibhe, anglicised … Livingstone. ….”
According to Dr O’Donovan, descendants of this family (of Cu-Uladh, the son of the last MacDunshleibe King of Ulidia), soon after the English invasion of Ireland, passed into Scotland, where they changed their name.”
Both Rawlinson and O’Cleery confirm that Fiach Fear mara was ancestor of both Fergus Mór mac Earca, King of Dalriada and Concobair m Duinn slebe ( the ancestor of Ruaidhri Mac Duinnsleibhe ‘o ffuilit .h. Duinn slebhe’).

The argument for our descent from Donn Sleibe Mac Eochada is based on:

• 1. The assumption that our name is derived from MacDunshleibe
  2. Since 1137 the name Mac Duinnshleibhe was reserved for the rigdamnai of Ulaid
  3. Mac Duinnshleibhe shared a common ancestor with Kings of Dalriada - Fiach Fearmara.
  4. The line of Mac Duinnshleibhe were therefore of the Fine Grin (Tribe of the Land) and so would be eligible to be Coarbs of St Moluag.
  5. The Ui Echach Coba and the Dál nAraide descend from Fiacha Araide, ancestor of St Moluag
  6. Cathusach Mac Duinnsleibhe Ua Eochadha was described as king of Dál-Araidhe .
  7. The line of Mac Duinnshleibhe were therefore of the Fine Erluma (Tribe of the Saint) and so would be eligible to be Coarbs of St Moluag.
  8. Therefore the Mac Duinnshleibhe were of both the Fine Erluma and the Fine Grin so VERY eligible to be Coarbs of St Moluag.
  9. Fiach Fear mara was ancestor of the Kings of Argyle and Dalriada and also the ancestor of MacDunshleibe anglicised Livingstone. According to Dr O’Donovan, descendants of the last MacDunshleibe King of Ulidia soon after the English invasion of Ireland, passed into Scotland, where they changed their name.
  10. The Bachuil DNA line which is believed to be the line of the ancient kings.

There is a theory that after the last kings were defeated by the Normans under John de Courcy they went west to Donegal, where they became hereditary physicians to the ruling O'Donnell. However, DNA research currently emerging suggests that these Dunlevy’s are not descendants of Dunshleibe Ua Eochadha but have the DNA signature associated with the Ui Neill, Anrothan’s line.

[Steven Meyer]

Thank you for your post! It really clears up the confusion I had on the topic. Now our connection to Dr. David Livingstone is my great grandmother was the late, Katherine (Livingstone) Seigel from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Her father was James Livingstone ( also from Milwaukee, Wisconsin). This all from my mom's side of the family. Here is what was written in a family scrapbook album by my Grandmother's sister.

David Livingstone's Family

Grandfather- Neil Livingston ( had 5 sons & 2 daughters)
Father " Livingston Born 1788
Mother Agnes Hunter Married 1810
Born: March 19, 1813 - Died: April 30, 1873
3 brothers - John, Charles, Neil
2 sisters - Janet, Agnes
David married Mary Moffet - July 1844
Their children were:
Robert Moffet-Livngstone - Dec. 5th 1846
(changed name to Rufrent (sp) Vincent
Died during Civil War- 18 yrs. old 1865
Agnes Hunter L. May 2, 1847

Thomas Steele - April ?, 1849
Died in Egypt at the age of 26 - never married.

Elizabeth Pyne L. Dec. 4, 1850 Died in infancy

William Oswell Livingstone Sept 15, 1851 (?)
Anna Mary L. Nov. 16 th, 1858
Mary Moffet L. died April 27, 1862 in Africa
David's mother died - June 1865

Daughter Anges married Alexander Law Bruce

[Steven Meyer]

*Continued*

Their son was Col. Alexander Bruce D.S.O.
Daughter Anna Mary married Frank Wilson
Their son was Dr. Hubert Francis Wilson M.C.
Their son
was Aswell - much to be said about him. His daughters became more important than his sons. Book did not go into much detail.
"David Livingstone" By: George Seaver

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Steven,
Dr. Livingstone's older brother John Livingstone (1811-1899) who settled in Ontario, Canada in the 1840's stated in letter to a Canadian historian in the 1890's that his grandparents Neil Livingstone and Mary Morrison had five sons John, Charles, Duncan and Donald, Neil and two daughters. The Kilinian Parish, Mull records indicate one other daughter Mary not mentioned by John who later lived with the family in Blantyre, Lankashire, and in the early 1800's was married to a man named Laurie. So I suspect it was five sons and three daughters though family historian Dr. David Livingstone Wilson was not aware of Donald apparently and for his part only listed four sons: John, Charles,Duncan and his ancestor Neil Livingston Jr. b.1788. There really is just a lot of speculation regarding Duncan and this Donald anyways as there was no detailed information from Dr. Livingstone or his children on these two or the others for that matter. We do know from Dr. Livingstone's family that Neil Livingston and Mary Morrison's son CHarles was forced into the British Navy by a British Navy press gang at the time of the Napoleonic Wars and he died soon after somewhere in the Mediterian. Dr. Livingstone states only that all of his Uncles served either in the Navy or Army. Dr. Livingstone's grandson Hubert Livingston Wilson interestly mentions in his book on Dr. Livingtone from the 1920's that his uncles participated in the Battle of Waterloo which i currently looking into. Oddly enough I did find that a John Levingston and a Dun Levingston were at the Battle of Waterloo, but I dont have any details regarding them except the regiment they served in. WHether or not this is Dr. Livingstone's Uncle John Livingston b.1777 and his Uncle Duncan Livingston I am really not certain.

Hubert Livingston Wilson's son the late Dr. David Livingston Wilson did a comprehensive family tree chart in the 1980's but it should be noted that the focus of it is the descendants of Dr. Livingstone's father Neil Livingstone Jr. and his wife Agnes Hunter and their children. Beyond Dr. Livingtone Wilson family tree chart which I consider to be highly accurate there is not alot of knowledge out there regarding family connections. The other thing to remember is that Dr. Livingstone's sons died young for the most part and did not have sons. There are of course as you mentioned other descendants of his daughters one whom married a Bruce and the other a Wilson. They just wont be named Livingstone. Dr. Livingstone's eldest brother John Livingstone (1811-1899) on the other hand has a number of "Livingstone" descendants today in Canada and the United States. Rev. Charles Livingston b.1823, the younger brother who was a minister in New York State and New England and joined his brother in Africa for a time. He had a small family and his son never married. So we have from Dr. Livingstone's great grandson's family tree research some sense of whom may be related to Dr. Livingstone's family but certainly not detailed information on the descendants of his Uncles or earlier generations in Scotland which I am sure no doubt exist out there somewhere. Steve Wilson however on his website Livingstone Relations has done alot of work locating information on Dr. Livingstone's Uncles families from census and parish records which is also a very good source for anyone interested learning more about Dr. Livingstone's family and lesser known kin.

While our experience has been that there are many Livingstones and Livingstons who believe they are related to Dr Livingstone in some way, the ultimate challenge is to locate some sort of documented evidence that can prove beyond doubt a definite family connection.

I have a copy of that George Seaver book on Livingstone. One of my favourites actually. Seaver did alot of research on that one and located a number of interesting letters which he includes in the book. My personal favourite however is "Livingstone" by R.J. Campbell published in 1929 which focuses a great detail on Dr. Livingstone's family history. Like the Seaver book which was published in the 1950's and is out of print, you would have to locate in a library or acquire a used copy. William Garden Blaikie's 1880's bio on Livingstone is also very good. He consulted with Dr. Livingstone's family, though regretably he did not learn much of families ancestral roots in highland Argyllshire, Scotland as I would have liked. Dr. Livingstone in his own book "Missionary Travels and Explorations of South Africa" only briefly discussed his family history in the first chapter thinking his readers would naturally be more interested in his missionary work and exploration of Africa. Despite his difficult journeys and poor health while in Africa, he always managed to find time for correspondence with family and friends back home and we are very fortunate that their remains a treasure trove of surviving correpondence of Dr. Livingstone's much of which has been published over the years giving us a tremendous insight into this facinating historical figure and fellow clansman.

What we need to establish is yourr Livingstone ancestral line on your mother's side of the family as far back as much as your family can establish it, in order to try to indentify a family link with Dr. Livingstone. Also if you know when the family left Scotland for America that would also be helpful. Without providing us with specific details of your Livingston family line as far back as you know it is difficult to begin the process of determining whether or not there is in fact a Dr. Livingstone connection. It looks like your relatives located info on Dr. Livingstones family line and were trying to establish a connection, but the question still remains as to what they found out.

By saying that Dr. Livingstone was your great-great-great Uncle I assume your great grandmother Livingstone believed she was a great niece of Dr. Livingstone or something like that. ANotherwards related to one of his Uncles if I understand correctly. It appears however from the Dr. David Livingstone Wilson family tree info that your great-great grandfather James Livingston was not connected to the family of Dr. Livingstone's brothers John or Rev. Charles Livingstone but if we can determine who James Livingston's father was we can be 100% certain. Do you know when your great-great grandfather James Livingstone was born when and where by any chance? Do you know when and where you great-grandmother Livingstone was born? I assume that was in Wisconnsin? We have family research experts with the Society that have some experience with U.S. Canadian and Scottish genealogy that may be able to help establish your Livingstone ancestral line.

regards,

Donald

[Kyle MacLea]

Steven,

I wonder if your family scrapbook album is dated in any way? Is it obvious which sources which info came from? Any info that would not be known from the other Livingstone books?

Kyle=