Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ontario

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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:39 pm

Hi David,

The 1825 Lower Canada (Quebec) Census has an Archibald Livingston censused at Montreal St. Laurent. He is quite likely Your ancestor Alexanders b. 1803 Father Archibald. He has a couple of sons and a couple of daughters and a wife if I am understanding the french correctly. He appears however to be age between 25 to 40 in 1825 which would be old enough to be Alexander's father but not sure about Angus born in 1797 but then maybe the census info is simply incorrect as to Archibald's a approximate age as I bet this probably him considering that he may have been in Montreal area during part of that period of the 1820's.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby david.livingstone » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:39 am

Hi Donald, I came across something and was hoping to get your opinion:

We were discussing an Archibald Livingstone in Terrebonne County Quebec appearing on the 1851 census with father Neil (widowed) and a sister Sarah Livingstone, who I found from a genetic hit in the Ancestry DNA test. You mentioned an Archibald Livingstone from Kingston who married a Selina Scobell. Not sure if you have ancestry or not, but here's a link to a document I came across:

https://www.ancestry.ca/interactive/333 ... 422/152990

Title is "The Canadian Biographical Dictionary and Portrait Gallery of Eminent and Self-Made Men", published 1880.

It has a section about Archibald Livingstone in Kingston, his marriage to Selina Scobell May 16, 1854 (daughter of builder Sidney Scobell), and lists his birth at Montreal Aug 10, 1827, but most importantly lists his parents as Duncan and Christina (McPherson) Livingstone. It goes on to say his father was from Argyleshire, Scotland and his mother from Inverness. There is a bit more info about him as well - if that link doesn't work for you and you'd like a copy of the image and/or transcript I'd be happy to provide it.

On the Terrebonne census from 1851, Archibald's father was Neil, so I'm thinking this is not the Archibald that ended up in Kingston. If this proves to be the case (and the book is accurate), I don't think we can eliminate this Archibald from Terrebonne as possibly being my ancestor, solely based on the Kingston connection, but wanted to know what you thought.

Also, wanted to get your opinion on the following:

Based on available census and death records for my Archibald Livingstone, his birth year fluctuates:

* = what was on census
1861 28* abt 1832
1871 35* abt 1836
1881 49* abt 1832
1891 60* abt 1831
1901 65* not known 1835*

Death register shows he died 1 Apr 1907 and lists his age as 76 years, so born abt. 1831.

(Intersting to note that on the 1901 census there was a column for "birth day and month" and for Archibald "not known" was written by the enumerator). Could mean Archibald answered the question and didn't know, or the person answering on his behalf didn't know. At that time Archibald was living with his son (just the two of them). I bring it up only in passing, as either way I think it is interesting to note that his birthday wasn't known....

In the 6 data points we have, the majority (4 out of 6) put his birth year at 1831/1832.

I then look at what we know about the birth year of these Archibald individuals:

Archibald Livingstone, Grenville born 1 April 1836 (parish record confirming this)
Archibald Livingstone, my ancestor born abt. 1831/1832 (based on evidence above)
Archibald Livingstone, Terrebonne born abt. 1828 (1851 census showing age 24)

If we don't eliminate the Archibald in Terrebonne and look at that comparisson, the Archibald in Terrebonne is just as close a match as the Archibald from Grenville (if I discount the 1836 and 1835 dates, which represent 2 of the 6 listed birth dates we have).

Again, I only bring this up for discussion purposes, and as always really value and appreciate your opinion on this. Obviously doesn't bring me any closer to a final answer and I have a lot of research left to do.
david.livingstone
 
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:16 pm

Hi David,
Finally some cold weather after that hot summer.

I have the same problem with census records for some of my ancestors as well. I see quite clearly your dilemma.
The birth and baptism entries and the 1851 Quebec census I think conflict with the notion he was born in 1831 or 1832 for sure.
Flory, born 04-May-1835, baptized 06-May-1835
Christy, born 07-Feb-1834, baptized 02-Apr-1834
Archbald, b 01-Apr-1836, baptized 03-Aug-1836
Catherine, b 01-Jul-1939, baptized 04-Mar-1840
Mary, b 15-Jan-1841, baptized 27-Mar-1844
Donald, b 15-Apr-1842, baptized 27-Mar-1844
Jane, b 06-Jan-1844, baptized 27-Mar-1844

1851 Census of Canada East (Quebec) in Deux Montagnes County, Grenville
Alexander Livingston, Farmer, born in Scotland, Presbyterian, 48
Catherine Livingston, born in Scotland, Presbyterian, 30
Christy, 16
Archbald, Labourer, 15
I am leaning toward 1836 myself and perhaps some sloppy census taker or census takers being at the root of the problem.

Some of those scots working on the canal in the early 1800's were said to spend the winters in Montreal. I found an Archibald Livingston as mentioned residing in St. Laurent which is a suburb of Montreal in the 1825 Census with a couple of sons and a couple of daughters and a wife. Could be your ancestor Archibald Livingston father of Alexander born abt. 1803 or it could be another. This Archibald censused in what is today a Montreal suburb of St. Laurent, had two sons by 1825 and we suspect that your Archibald had at least two sons by 1825 Angus and Alexander. Then by the next census of Lower Canada of 1842 see the 2 sons of your Archibald and only 2 residing in Grenville, Quebec where we know Archibald their father was working apparently on the canal, but likely spent the winter months in the Montreal area because they had to break for the Winter and perhaps the census of 1825 in Lower Canada was conducted during those Winter months.

I think my study of the census record paper trail for your ancestors Aleander and son Archibald and his assumed brother Angus of Grenville and later in Ontario strongly suggest to me we are on the right track in terms of where your family settled and when. Not too familiar with the Terrebonne Archibald Livingston you speak of, but the Kingston Ontario Archibald livingston is definitely not your Archibald Livingston. The Kingston Archibald is definitely I think of Western Argyllshire origin his parents being Duncan Livingston and Christine McPherson. Some Western Argyllshire lived also in neighbouring Invernesshire but our from the same ancestry as Western Argyllshire Livingstons i have found.
I don't know that there is any connection to your family with that of Duncan Livingston and Christine McPherson. That information that the Archibald Livingston of Kingston who originated from Quebec is descended from Duncan Livingston and Christine McPherson is quite likely correct and I have found documentation that Duncan and Christine did indeed live in Quebec in the 1820's and married in 1823 in Montreal. Like some descendants living today somewhere including possibly Kingston then. They apparently had six children and he and his wife she of Montreal and he referred to as a "gentleman of St. Annis Married on March 9, 1823 at a Presbyterian Church in Montreal. According to the Canadian Scottish historian Whyte, Duncan arrived in Quebec as early as 1821. Interestingly in addition to his signature and that his wife Christine McPherson on the marriage entry there was also that of two witnesses George Henderson and Donald Carmichael, family names all close associated with families of Western Argyllshire or neighbouring Inverness-shire origin. I really can't say however whether or not Duncan had any connection to your Livington family. I have no proof one way or the other. This is the family that is linked to the Kingston Livingston you mentioned earlier that you thought might be connected to your Livingstons. Even if that is not the case it is good that we have some info on the early origins of this family in Quebec in case a descendant ever makes his or her way to the Forum looking for information or sharing some of their own. And if possible should that scenario occur you could always mention the possibility of a genealogy DNA test to see which Livingston DNA group this family is and determine also whether of not they could be related to your Livingston family.

I am sorry did you say you did the Y Chromosome test with Familytreedna company or Ancestry.ca? I may perhaps have got it wrong when you first told me. I was curious as to how it all worked out for you.

Yes it is interesting sometimes family members omit information regarding the birth dates and other details on census and death records and make unfortunate errors. I have seen that quite a bit. Even on gravestones. One of my great-great grandfathers is recorded as 1815-1887 when infact we know he was born in 1810. He had to Michigan before he died to live with one of his many sons who had earlier moved to Michigan. Can't figure why the son would not know the correct year of his Father's birth, but like I say not the first time I have seen errors like that on cemetery stones, death records and in census records. It has been my experience that a lot of people who post their family trees online are far too confident that their source information is guaranteed to be completely accurate. I try to make certain that they are a close as possible to be accurate and in most case hopefully the info is completely accurate, but realistically, an error in family tree information is always a possibility. To err is to be human. Census information I particularly find frequent errors in terms of ages given at the time of the census for some of my relatives. And often from decade to decade found census records which reflect likely inaccurate information regarding my relative's age. I had census info for my Mom's great-grandfather and every census gave me different estimated birth year. Man that annoyed me. Was that the census takers fault or my Great-great Grandmother. I guess I will never know.




regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2564
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:20 am

Hi David,

You may find that Archibald Livingston had a will before he died in Quebec whenever that was. If not check the history of whatever last lot he was farming on if you can determine what lot that was and access the history of the lot ownership and at the time of Archibald's death or sometime thereafter it may indicate a transfer of his lot to a son or a sale of his lot to another farmer. You might get a clue as to when Archibald died from that. You probably would have to go to Quebec or get someone in Quebec to do some checking of Grenville Township Land records. That bio of Archibald seems to be indicating that Archibald Steele later located on old Archibald's lot.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2564
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:19 pm

Hi David,

It is also interesting to note that in the last census of Archibald Steele Sr. before he died his neighbour was a John Livingston which I assume is probably one of Archibald's sons. So it might be useful to determine the lot number and concession of those two lots and then take a look at the land transaction history of both lots

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2564
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:32 am

Hi David,
Sorry that we have not had the chance to discuss the historical significance of your match with the predominate Mull and Movern DNA match group of which I have struggled for a number of years to keep afloat and for which I anticipated you would likely be a match with. As you have no parish records from Argyllshire proving your Argyllshire Livingston ancestry and only brief mention in Grenville Township, Quebec history account that your ancestor was said to have originated in Mull, Argyll, you know have some additional confirmation from the DNA match with this particular Livingston familytreematch group which sure enough is the predominate Mull and neighbouring Morvern Parish, Argyll Maclea Livingstone/Livingston match group with the familytreedna project. I am 100 per cent certain of that. So hopefully this information is helpful to you.

So congratulations as you are as anticipated a part of a Western Argyllshire Maclea LIvingtone DNA Match predominately of Mull and Morvern ancestry. As I have spent a good part of more than 10 years of my life researching this familytreedna match group in particular of which you are now a match. Recently another Livingston of Mull ancestry did the famlytreedna test with root to a highland family that settled in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia in the early 1800's from Kilninian Parish, Mull. So as I have mentioned for more than 10 year almost all Livingstons of Mull Maclea Livingston ancestry seem to be a match with this particular Livingstone family treedna match group. Your participation was greatly appreciated. Your arrival in this group is timely as there was a recent breakthrough in terms of information of what appears to be a confirmed ancestral SNP possibly shared by many if not all this group which I am hoping will in the years to come may hopefully eventually be helpful in better identifying the more ancient ancestral Celtic origins of this group or at at the very least provide us with some knowledge of other Clans which share the same ancestral SNP with these Mull/Morvern and other related Livingstons in this group of which you are a match. Welcome to complicated but interesting world of genealogy and DNA research. Contrary to what I am sometimes told they can and do work well together to not only connect Livingstons to other related Livingston families, but may also provide some clues to more ancient ancestral origins which of great interest to me as well.

I have enjoyed the time working with you to try and unravel the mysteries of your Quebec Livingston ancestors and their kin in both Quebec and later in neighbouring province of Ontario, Canada and hope we can continue to work together in the future. And thanks again for participating in the DNA Project, the Canadian Livingston research project and the Morvern/Mull Maclea Livingston research project. It is appreciated.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2564
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

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