Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ontario

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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby david.livingstone » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:42 pm

Hi Donald, thank-you for this information. I very much appreciate you taking the time to review and guide me along this investigation - your expertise, knowledge, and feedback is very much appreciated!! I have to laugh at myself at times: I'm definitely a novice when it comes to this stuff, and although I try not to jump to conclusions and only make my connections based on facts, there are many things I overlook! It's been an invaluable experience being able to discuss this with you and, again, I really appreciate your expertise in this so thank-you.

In terms of the genetic match through AncestryDNA: I'm hoping I'm on the right track with regard to Sarah Livingstone being the common ancestor between myself and this S.B. and her son. I meticulously went up and down S.B.'s parental lines, and this Sarah Livingstone was the only possible match I could find. According to Ancestry, the predicted relationship between myself and S.B. is 3rd cousin, confidence "extremely high" and says "104 centimorgans shared across 6 DNA segments", and this was one of the closer matches it found. There are 4 shared matches between myself and S.B. so I'm in the process of exploring those connections to see where the lines connect. Figuring out the 3rd cousin match took a while, but the others are predicted to be 4th - 6th cousins, so traversing those trees won't be as easy as there are so many branches to dive down into. I've also found that people build their family trees with inaccurate citations, and citations that conflict with each other, so weeding through that is time consuming.

If we are still leaning toward the Archibald Livingstone from Grenville, Deux Montagnes being my ancestor, does it then make sense that my Archibald was perhaps a cousin of this Sarah Livingstone I've found through the DNA match, rather than them being siblings? With a 3rd-cousin match to Sarah, the relationship between my Archibald and Sarah could not have been far off (unless of course I've made a mistake in tracking up through my genetic connection to S.B.)
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:42 pm

Hi David,

I think there could be a Livingston connection there with your family determined from that test but is matches a lot of different families with your DNA results other than Livingtons as well if you took the basic ancestry.com test that my wife and I took a few years ago. A number of family names came up as matches that my wife and I had never heard up and they were being linking as second and third cousins or something like that. A couple of them were actually related in somehow, but others I don't really think so. What we wanted from that particular test from ancestry. com was the different percentage numbers of our British and European ancestry. That was the only reason we did that general kind of test. For identifying related Livingston families of varying distances from close to more distant to very distant the 67 marker test with familytreedna should definitely match you up with other related Livingstons. And in the case this situation where there were two Livingston families from Quebec and you weren't certain which one you are descended from if you were able, you could have one Livingston a documented descendant from each family tested via the Y chromosome test and then compare their results with your Y chromosome test and bingo you would have Livingston Y chromosome proof of which Livingston your share a paternal Livingston ancestor with. In my case I had my Livingston cousin tested in order to confirm that my Livingston ancestor was from highland Argyllshire and if he was from Morvern Parish in Argyll as stated in his Argyllshire marriage record. Most of matches were all from Argyllshire it appears and his closest matches of Morvern Livingston ancestry, but I worked hard to find Livingstons of Morvern ancestry so that helped also. None of Morvern Livingston matches have a 19th or 20th century family connection but they do probably have a 18th century connection in Morvern, Argyll. I am hoping that the 67 marker test with familytreedna will eventually give us clues as to whether you are an Argyllshire Livngton or from some other part of Scotland. And from there eventually establish which Livingstons in your group you are most closely matching and where if known they are from in Scotland.

Even with this Livingston born in 1827 there is a little confusion in the info as to his parents one say father was Neil Livingston the other Duncan Livingston from Argyll both claim he lived in the Montreal area and both say he died in Kingston Ontario. No evidence there are two born in 1827 who lived in the Montreal area but even if there were it still seems pretty certain your Archibald was the one born in the 1830's in Quebec. I know census takers were notorious for making mistakes but you ancestor in Ontario clearly in every census is born in the 1830's and not in 1827 or 1828 where as this other lIvington (or Livingston) born in the Montreal area (Terrerbonne) is always referred to as being born in 1827 or 1828 connected to the Montreal area of suburbs of Montreal and apparently later settling in Kingston, Frontenac Ontario where all of his census info suggests he is a Quebec born Livingston born in 1827 and 1828. In fact the only such 1827 or 1828 Livingston in the Ontario or Quebec Census after the year 1851. In the Y chromosome test al the closest matches with my Livingston cousin are with "other' Livingston families not with our own Livingston family so it would not surprise me that this other DNA test might link another Livington family to yours as many Livingston families out there are related some closely others more distantly quite commonly when DNA results are released. I do not think the Sarah Livingston match we you have found necessarily should be interpreted to mean that Archibald Livington son of Archibald Sr. is not showing up in that Ancestry.com. For one thing perhaps the simple explanation to consider is that a descendant of Archibald Livington of Grenville, Quebec has not taken the ancestry.com test you took. I bet my last dollar if he had then that would show up in that kind of test results with the ancestry.com test you took. But probably no descendant of Archibald of Grenville Quebec I am betting has done the ancestry.com DNA test you did. I really think it quite likely that the original Archibald is the right one we originally thought, but to prove it without any doubt, one would need to have Y chromosome test done of a proven descendant of that Grenville, Quebec Livingston family and compare it with your results. Such a Livingston might not be too easy to find out there. But something perhaps to look into in the future if you find any of them doing research. As I said you may also likely match this other Livington family with Y chromosome testing but does my Livingston cousin with a a good number of Livingstons from throughout Argyllshire but not as close as close cousins, but just sharing a common ancestor in a few centuries ago in highland Argyllshire.

That being said I can't tell you how thrilled to hear that you are dong the 67 marker familytreedna chromosome test. I have done family research for a lot of those Livignstons in that project and fairly familiar with ancestral roots which has been helpful to them and for my own research knowledge of Argyllshire Livingtons and some other LIvngstons not of Argyllshire ancestry which are also a good number of them out there in the world.

If you are descended from the Archibald Livingston son of Alexander and Catharine of Grenville, Quebec, as we originally thought, there is very little doubt in my mind you are of Argyllshire highland Livingston ancestry with the names like Alexander, Archibald, Donald and Euphemia. I was just researching the family of a Euphemia Livingston from Argyllshire just a few days ago. It was quite a popular name among Western Argyllshire Livingstons for some reason. Flora was another popular Western Argyllshire Livingston name I come across quite a bit in my research of Western Argyllshire LIvingtons. And even if you were descended from the other Archibald Livingston born in 1827 or 1828, that lived near Montreal in the nearby Terrebonne area the info I seen suggests he was of Livingstons of Argyllshire ancestry. So either way the Y chromosome test will at least probably if all goes well confirm you are of Argyllshire Livingston ancestry which is what the clues so far suggest will probably be the case.

And as I said your Livingston family even if they are the Grenville Quebec Livingtons could still be related to Sarah Livington's relatives elsewhere in Quebec in the 1800's if they also came from Western Argyllshire which the information from that Montreal Terrebonne area Livingston family suggests. And so far testing of many of the Livingstons of Western Argyllshire ancestry that done the familytreedna Y chromosome tests has quite frequently shown many of them of share an ancestor in Western Argyllshire at some point in time. I will get into that further once we see which group you match with and if I am familiar with the Livingston genealogy of your Livingston matches and assist you more in a few weeks when we reach that point.

Most interesting perhaps is the bigger picture that there were a number of Livingston families who arrived in Quebec in the early 1800's of Argyllshire including my Great-great-great grandfather's son Donald Livingston 1796-1862 from his first marriage whom ended up in Quebec about 1817 made his way to Montreal and later in the 1820's settled in Beauharnois County later residing in the Huntingdon area of Quebec area becoming a prominent land surveyor. I think you are however the first Livingston of Argyllshire origin whose family originally settled in Quebec apart from my ancestor's eldest son that I have done any research on or who has contacted our Clan Maclea Livingstone Forum. A number of other Livingstons with ancestry rooted in the other provinces have over the years also contacted this Forum.


regards,

Donald
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:06 pm

Hi David,

Looks like you are familiar with all the available information regarding Alexander Livingston and Catharine McDonald. I noticed that Alexander died Feb. 22, 1884. The ontario death records from that year dont give the names of the parents of the deceased , but I dont know about the 1884 Quebec death records. You might want to check with the Quebec records office to see if Quebec death records from that year would included name of the parents of old Alexander Livingston of Grenville Township, Quebec. I know in Ontario around the end of the World War 1 or a few years after started to list the name of the parents of the deceased I think, but i dont know when Quebec started to include the names of the parents of the deceased. Probably not included with Alexander's 1884 death record but I would like to make certain of that. Cant really get a sense when he was actually born in Scotland because the errors in the census records in terms of his age and perhaps even in his death record. Was he born in the 1790's or between 1800 and 1807. Not sure but I think he more likely was born in the 1790's as he received land in 1821 and likely would have been over the age of 21 at this time. I think you had to be at least 21 to receive land in Upper Canada at that time or something like that and it may have been the same in Lower Canada where Alexander lived.

I dont know when he first came to Quebec but an Alexander Livingston received a lot in Grenville, Quebec Nov. 10th 1821 located on the North half of Lot no. 9 7th range of the township of Grenville, Argenteuil, Quebec. I assume it is probably your ancestor. The 1851 Census agricultural census info indicates that Alexander Livingston is located on 100 at Con. 7 Lot 7 and Angus Livingston as witness at his wedding at 100 acres at Con. 5 lot 8.

Archibald born in the 1830's the son of Alexander and Catharine definitely left Grenville, Quebec it looks like in the 1850's and i still think that he is one that ended up married to Susan Doig in Ontario. I think the clincher is that both this Livingston familiy and some Doigs were married or baptized by William Maur minister for both Grenville and neighbouring Chatham, Quebec. There were also Doigs in nearby Lachute. I am thinking it would be a million to one odds that your not descended from these Quebec families of Susan Doid and her husband Archibald Livingston that originated in Quebec and settled in Ontario in the Counties that you more recent Livingston kin resided.

I noticed that a Rev. William Maur was a minister with a congregation of both neighbouring Grenville and Chatham was mentioned in both Alexander Livingston and Catharine McDonald's children baptism documents in the 1840's and with a Doig marriage in 1840.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:32 pm

Hi Archibald,

Here are 3 pages of an early Lower Canada 1821 land record of Alexander Livingston of Grenville regarding 7-9 in Grenville township. The 1851 Census has him by that point in time at 7-7 and Angus Livingston 5-7. On the 3rd page of these Lower Canada land documents there are notes referring to Angus Livingston. Angus born in the 1790's is very likely Alexander's brother. Alexander's neighbours according to the 1851 census were among others a McPhee and a McGillveray which were common names in 18th and 19th century Mull, Morvern and other parishes in Western Argyllshire where my own Maclea/Livingstone kin resided.

http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/l ... ber=52803&

http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/l ... e008706195

http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/l ... e008706196

regards,

Donald
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:57 am

Hi David,
I think as you mentioned in an earlier post this Cyrus Thomas 1896 bio on the 19th century Livingstons of Grenville may contain some death date confusion there is some helpful info such as the origin of the family as being Mull.

History of Argenteuil Quebec
Author Cyrus Thomas 1896
Grenville
Pg. 395


[i]Archibald Livingstone from the Isle of Mull, Argyleshire, Scotland was a member of the Royal Staff Corps. After his discharge he took up 300 acres of land, which is now owned and occupied by Archibald Steele. He lived and died at this place, his last days being spent with his son Alexander; he had three sons and two daughters.
Alexander, his second son, married Catharine McDonald, and too up 350 acres near the homestead, which is now the home of his own son John Livingstone. He cleared about 15 acres of this died Feb. 23, 1890; Mrs. Livingstone died 4th May 1884. They had twelve children; eleven- three sons and eight daughters grew up; one of the former and four of the latter are married. Archibald, the eldest son, married, lives in Wyoming; Catharine, one daughter married to Charles Webster, lives in Ottawa; Jane married to William S. Hall, live in Cumberland, Ontario; Flora married to Frederick Rogers lives in Montreal; Isabela the youngest, whose husband Archibald Cameron died recently, now lives on the homestead with her brother. Annie lives in New York; Maggie in Hawkesbury, Ontario and Mary with her brother on the homestead, all forming a respected Christian family.
[/i]


Interesting that it is mentioned that Archibald the elder had serve in the Royal Staff Corps who were involved in military engineering from the year 1800 and were disbanded in 1837. If this info is correct them this Archibald the elder, the father of Alexander Livingston who married Catharine McDonald may have been a Napoleonic War veteran. They were among the settlers who arrived in Nova Scotia and likely Quebec following 1815 and end of the conflict with the French. If so then it would make sense that he would have a young family born in the late 1790's or early 1800's then such as Alexander and his likely brother Angus. You wont apparently find any other info likely on Alexander's father Archibald possibly born in the 1770's in Mull Argyll with the online Quebec records apparently and may have to dig further with the help of a Quebec based experience researcher who has access to original land settlement records of Quebec. They may be able to find some trace of Alexander's father in the records before 1821. I can't find any other info on him. I will see what Archibald born in the 1770's or so I can find in the Mull records. D.C.

I recall your earier posting:


If you recall this Grenville Livingstone family is mentioned in a book by Cyrus Thomas. I include an excerpt below for reference:


History of the Counties of Argenteuil, Que., and Prescott, Ont.
By Cyrus Thomas, 1896
Page 395:
Farther back, towards Harrington, near the roadside, is a very pretty little body of water known as Cook's Lake, Mr. Hugh Cook's fine new house fronting it.
Such lakes or ponds are quite numerous in this part of Grenville - three or four lying near the road. In this section are the homesteads of other pioneers, Livingstone, McVicar and McLean.
Archibald Livingstone, from the Isle of Mull, Argyleshire, Scotland, was a member of the Royal Staff Corps. After his discharge he took up 300 acres of land, which is now owned and occupied by Archibald Steele. He lived and died at this place, his last days being spent with his son Alexander; he had three sons and two daughters.
Alexander, his second son, married Catherine McDonald, and took up 356 acres near the homestead, which is now the home of his own son, John Livingstone. He cleared about 15 acres of this, and died 23rd February, 1890; Mrs. Livingstone died 4th May, 1884. They had twelve children ; eleven - three sons and eight daughters, grew up; one of the former and four of the latter are married.

Archibald, the eldest son, married, lives in Wyoming;
Catherine, one daughter, married to Charles Webster, lives in Ottawa;
Jane, married to William S. Hall, lives in Cumberland, Ont.;
Flora, married to Frederick Rodgers, lives in Montreal;
Isabella, the youngest, whose husband, Archibald Cameron, died recently, now lives on the homestead with her brother. Annie lives in New York;
Maggie in Hawkesbury, Ont.;
and Mary with her brother on the homestead, all forming a respected Christian family.

In our discussions we questioned how accurate Cyrus was in recalling and/or organizing the facts that he published, it not being uncommon for an author to make mistakes, etc. Having listed Archibald as living in Wyoming I felt it important to see how accurate Cyrus was with the rest of the children - he gives rather specific information about spouses, locations, deaths, etc. The accuracy of that information would perhaps strengthen or weaken the case for this Archibald being my ancestor.

To that end I've spent many hours researching all members of this Grenville Livingstone family, and am satisfied that the information presented in Cryus' book is indeed extremely accurate. I was still unable to find anything new about Archibald and again failed to find any connection whatsoever to the Wyoming USA statement in the book. One mistake I found in the book was the date Alexander died. Having seen the hand written burial record, I can see he died 22 Feb 1884, buy Cyrus listed it as Feb 1890. But if you look at the year Cyrus has for Catherine's death it is 1884, so I believe he mixed up the years for their deaths. I've not yet found a record for Catherine's death. If he made a mistake there, could it perhaps be another of the Livingstone children that went to Wyoming - yet another small (but important) mistake? Archibald had 2 younger brothers: John remained on the homestead unmarried and I can see him on census records all the way through to 1921, but I've not yet researched the other brother Donald (b1842).

Whatever the outcome, I have a lot on this family and would like to share the details for others researching Livingstone roots in Quebec. What is the best way to go about that? Should I start a new thread for Alexander Livingstone and dump what I know in there? Aside from our conversations I'm not sure how that is generally done here in the forum.

Third:
---------------------
Regarding the Scotch Road Cemetery:
I was able to find 2 of the Livingstone children buried there (Catherine b1839, d1906) and Mary (b1841, d1906). Catherine married Charles Webster (as Cyrus indicated and shown on the headstone inscription), and her son Daniel is buried with her. There is another Livingstone grave marker beside the stone for Catherine and Mary, but the first name is unfortunately no longer legible.

I've been in contact with the Scotch Road Cemetery folks and they have been extremely helpful, offering up information and even inviting me to the area for an informal walk-around. They are related to the other pioneer families in the Grenville area, with one owning land near the original Livingstone homestead (which is also next to the Scotch Road Cemetery). Two of them are Camerons, and interestingly enough there is a Cameron connection in the Livingstone tree - Alexander's youngest daughter Isabella (Bella) married Archibald Cameron...

Rev. William Mair performed many if not all the baptisms for the Livingstone children, and he was involved in building St. Mungo's church (built 1836) which still stands. There is a lot of rich history in the Grenville area and it would be good to see how it relates to the Livingstone settlers...

Fourth:
---------------------
You mentioned an Angus Livingston. If not related he and Alexander were certainly close as I've seen Angus listed on at least 2 documents related to Alexander:

9 Apr 1833 - He was witness (with Reuben Cook) to the marriage of Alexander Livingstone and Catherine McDonald
13 Aug 1831 - He was witness (with Hugh McVicar) for Alexander on a land ticket swearing that he had examined the north half lot 9 in 7th range and saw 4 acres under cultivation and a dwelling house erected

Finally:
---------------------
I'd like to find out more regarding the DNA test. From Cyrus' book and other sources we know Archibald Livingstone (Alexander's father) was from the Isle of Mull. Could this test assist in proving/disproving my connection to the Isle of Mull? If it would and the test shows I have no connection, then this Archibald from the Grenville Livingstone family is certainly not my ancestor. If the test shows I have a connection to the Isle of Mull, then we may be on the right track.

Update to this earlier question
Regarding this question the answer would be yes. A significant number of Livingstons of Mull Argyll and other neighbouring parishes in Western Argyllshire have been tested with the familytreedna Y chromosome test so there is very good chance of some matches. Not necessarily close cousins but quite possibly Livingstons of other related Livingstons families like yourself possibly connected back in 18th century Argyll to your own Mull, Argyll Livingston family. Hopefully we can see from the results what other Livngstons of Western Argyllshire you most closely match.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby david.livingstone » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:32 am

Hi Donald -
I was thinking it would be great to know who Archibald Livingstone's other children were - the siblings of Alexander Livingstone - and I don't recall seeing them on census records in 1851 or after (other than Angus which we've discussed briefly).

While I was attempting to find some information on the Royal Staff Corps records for their activities in Grenville, I can across some pay lists for the Grenville Loyal Sedentary Volunteers for Dec 1838 in a collection of British Military records that Library and Archives Canada has. Fortunately, it is indexed and digitized so if you roughly know what you are after you may get lucky. You may be already aware of this resource, but I include the information here as it is new to me. The collection is here: http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/m ... l-era.aspx

On the pay list we have:
Hugh Livingston
Alexander Livingston
Angus Livingston
James Livingston

To see the image you can follow this link and navigate to page 890 (viewing as a PDF improves the image quality and you can zoom in to clearly see the writing):
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/m ... ID=1626063

Obviously this doesn't show how these Livingston men are related, but we can place them together in Grenville in December 1838 which is something, and can't recall seeing Hugh or James listed before.
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:17 pm

HI David,

As a researcher who in the 1990's spent hour upon hour going through the Abstract Land indexes for Townships and Counties which listed all the earliest and later occupants on lots and concessions and went though early land petition records and subsequent land grant records, militia grants to War of 1812 veterans, and old township collections on file on the archives, old township land maps in Upper Canada later Ontario, there is a very good chance that in the Quebec Archives or elsewhere there are some other sources regarding your original ancestor Archibald Livingston b. 1770's? in Mull and his 300 acre? land transaction. Chances are good I would think that Alexander if he correctly acquired a 300 acre lot which is much larger than the usual settlers grant of 100 or 200 acres that the government of lower Canada factored in his former military service and award a large grant of 300 acres. I only have one ancestor in Ontario in 1795 who received 300 acres a Doctor who had lost his property in New York State and expelled from New York State after the American Revolution in 1790 for being thought too loyal to Great Britain, though he seems to have served as a Doctor on the American side during the Revolution. Fortunately his daughter and his son in law I think were able to save his property for seizure by the State of NY which was common practice after the Revolutionary war of anyone who had been accused of being loyal to Great Britain during the War. In my 5th great Uncle's case they obviously weren't able prove that as in fact he probably in the American militia and as Doctor who became familiar in the new small pox inoculation he likely helped prevent much illness and death during the Revolution. So it looks like they politely or otherwise asked him to go to Canada in 1790. Anyways my point there is lots of information in both the Ontario and Quebec Archives in terms of land related records that have not made their way to ancestry.com or the internet. Perhaps some of those folks of Grenville ancestry may have some suggestions regarding Quebec researchers who are familiar with early land records pertaining to Grenville. I would not give up on Alexander's father quite yet. That Royal Corps apparently were part of the British Army like an army core of engineers or something like that and formed what I can tell in 1800 and disbanded in 1837. I think if I understand correctly then that this corps was active during the Napoleonic Wars when many Argyllshire Scots served in the British Army either with a Scottish regiment or some other regiment. It is difficult to find lists of non officers i.e..
enlisted man generally speaking in the Napoleonic war period records.

I assume one scenario could be that Archibald Livingston the elder could have been serving in this Royal Corps during the Napoleonic wars and after 1815 when Napoleon had been finally for the last time defeated he like other veterans of that conflict decided to settle in Upper or Lower Canada where land was being made available to them. In terms of Grenville and neighbouring Chatham in Argenteuil a man named McMillan apparently acquired land in this area including Grenville and Chatham I think it was in the early 1800's. A mix of former Americans, English, Scots and Irish later settled in Grenville. A man named Cook was one of the early settlers and noticed one of the Cooks is mentioned in some of your Livingston family records in Grenville along with Angus Livingston who I am pretty certain was probably an older brother of your ancestor Alexander Livingston and son of this former British soldier Archibald Livingston.

To put a long story short do give up there is still a reasonably good chance there is a record of land originally granted to Alexander and Angus Livington's father, Archibald. While a land petition did not show up for Archibald in one Government of Canada archives site that does not mean that a record of him receiving the land requested in his earlier lower Canada land petition to the Crown does not exist a land grant document or perhaps he mentioned as the original grantee of a lot and concession or range within the township of Grenville prior to 1821. It is likely just not available online which I can I tell you many Quebec old land records likely are not. I think the only option is a detailed search through early land records probably in the Quebec archives for Grenville Township perhaps by a Quebec genealogist experienced with early land records, grants, purchases in Grenville and Argenteiul County in early 1800's. That 1896 info may not be entirely correct as you as have pointed out, but it looks like for now it may be only source of info regarding Alexander's father Archibald and most importantly Cyrus Thomas if he is correct has confirmed that your Livingston family origins are in Mull. I think from general reading of Scottish settlers in Grenville that your Livingstons were likely from Lochaber in the Inverness-shire and Argyllshire border area where there were infact of Livingston families some of earlier Morvern ancestry where my Livingstons come from. But I also read that some Mull families settled in Grenville and there plenty of Livingstons in the 1800's and before that who lived in parishes throughout Mull. My Livingstons come from neighbouring Movern which is right beside Mull and DNA testing have confirmed that many of the Mull Liingstons and the neighbouring Morvern livingston share a common ancestor and they family branches likely connected at sometime in the past in Western Argyllshire. So who knows we could be distant cousins.

In the mean time I am going to check a few things out and see what I can find out about any other records that might be out there but not available online that might contain info on old Archibald Livingstone.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:38 pm

Hi David,

I was trying to make sense of the settlement info regarding Archibald his son Alexander and later Archibald Livingston no. 2 b. 1843.

(Archibald Livingston) took up 300 acres of land, which is now owned and occupied by Archibald Steele. He lived and died at this place, his last days being spent with his son Alexander; he had three sons and two daughters.
Alexander, his second son, married Catharine McDonald, and too up 350 acres near the homestead, which is now the home of his own son John Livingstone.

Here what i have pieced together so far regarding the above mentioned info. (A work in progress)
It is not yet clear to what lot and range number the land which Archibald Livingston the elder acquired and when and when Archibald Steele no. 2 born 1843 or his Father Archibald Livingston 1 b. 1815 first occupied it. I would assume if the author is correct then must be a surviving record of the sale of the land to either Archibald Steele no. 1 of his son Archibald b. 1843. That is one who was residing on it at time that book was published in 1896 so I assume he is referring to Archibald Steele b. 1843 being on old Archibald original land. So I went through the records and here what I found so far.

The 1851 agricultural Census included with the 1851 Census lists your ancestor Alexander Livington at Range 7 Lot 7 100 acres
The 1851 Census lists Alexander Livingston (7-7) Donald McArthur (7-7_ then Corral Cook (7-6) Alexander McPhee is located nearby at 8-7 . At this time interestingly enough Archibald Steele no.1 b. 1814 the elder is situated in another part of Grenville Township at Range 9- lot 14 with 200 acres. Is that one of original Livingston lots of Archibald Livingstons. I dont think so. I was wondering but not sure then I checked the 1901 Census and I think something regarding the Livington and Steele land connection may have a clue in the 1901 Census where Archibald Steele b. 1843 in 1851 was located on his father Archibald Steele Srs farm at Range 9 Lot 14 200 acres has sometime before the 1901 Census and 1851 ended up in the neighbourhood of John Livingston son of Alexander Livingston where John is living on the family farm still presumingly at 7-7 next to the Cook family farm at 7-6. Is the 1896 history author mistaken or did Archibald Steele 2 purchase land nearby to the Livingstons near their 7th range lot 7 farm that had at one time been owned by John's grandfather Archibald Livingston or is the historian confusing Archibald with Alexander Livingston. Hmm? Finding that record of sale between the Livingstons and Archibald Steele would confirm just who sold what to whom and when regarding that farm that Archibald Steele Jr. is occupying at the time of the 1896 publication and at the time of the 1901 census which I checked.

Sometime before 1901 Archibald Steele no. 2 b. 1843 appears to move to the 7th range in the neighbourhood of where the late Alexander Livingston had been residing according to the 1851 Census. In 1901 a Grenville Twp. Census district 137 District E, page 17, I found also that at what appears the old 100 acre farm at Con. 7 Lot 7 entry 143 John Livingston the son of Alexander is now the head of household a single man. Residing with him in 1901 on this farm are his sisters Mary and Annie Livington also single. Neighbours in 1901 on page 17 include entry 144 Hugh Cook (7-6) likely the Hugh son of Corral cook who was the neighbour in 1851 and entry 145 Alexander McPhee likely at (8-7) possibly part of the Alexander McPhee family recorded as neighbours of the Livingstons in the 1851 Census. What is eye catching here though is there a new neighbour in this since 1851 and that is you guessed it Archibald Steele no. 2 b. 1843 who is entry 146. I dont know what his lot and the other lots for the 1901 census I identified from the 1851 Census info. I dont have access to range and lot info for the 1901 Census for Grenville township for some reason but it is clear that at some time between 1851 and 1901 Archibald Steele no. 2 b. 1843 or his father Archibald Steele no. 1 b. 1815 seems to have moved nearby to the Livingstons the Cooks ands McPhees and if the historian and his 1896 book is correct that land which seems certainly to be either in the Range 7 or Range 8 area likely Range 7 lot 8 or Range 7 Lot 9 or something in Range 8 must have been land previously owned by Alexander Livingston or as the author states owned by Alexanders father Archibald Livingston.

SO this may be a lead. My best hunch is that Steele may have located on that Range 7 Lot 9 that i noticed mentioned in the 1821 land grant info I did find of Alexanders. It did not seem to have anything to with Alexander's father but appeared land granted to Alexander the son in 1821. In any event you need to find the lot or lots in the Range 7 or Range 8 area near where Alexander Livington lived (7-7) and his son John Livington in the early 1900's and when Archibald Steele 2 or 1 bought it and when. It does not look to me like Archibald Steele bought that lot from Archibald, Alexander's father as he seems to have likely been dead for years so Something does not make sense to me here. But one step at a time. The first thing is to confirm precisely when the Archibald Steele bought that land nearby your Livingston relatives who were at apparently 7-7. To me looking at the census info from 1851 it looks like the Steele family where located at Range 9 lot 14 both Sr. and Jr Archibald back then and unless your Livingstons owned Range 9 lot 14 before 1851 the only land I see the Steeles acquiring near the 7th range where we know your Livingstons seemed to live around probably from the 1820's if not earlier. So lets figure out when the Steeles purchase d land from your Livingston family what year and whom sold it to them And then at least some sense can be made of what th 1896 author is saying about the Livingston land. If there is a year by year abstract history of the Grantors and Grantees of this particular lot once we find it like they have in Ontario then on one or two pages you see every sale transaction, mortgage etc on that land including the name of the original grantee in the early 1800's. I am familiar with the Quebec landrecords if their township land records have well organized Abstract summary index pages which summarize by year each transaction like in Ontario. Someone from Quebec familiar with Quebec land records for Grenville Township would be a big help to you I would think as I do think it very possible if Archibald did acquire 300 acres as this 1896 historian stated that his name in the land records should be listed somewhere in the records.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:30 am

Hi David,

That military list from that period likely had something to do with men required to do some local militia service around the time of the Lower Canada rebellion. Some of my relatives in the 1830's in Upper Canada also were volunteers in that as well during the 1837 period as doing the Fenian raid period of the 1860's. Interesting that you found other Livingstons besides Archibald and Angus. I really don't know who they are. I assumed the historian in 1896 was alluding to family information he had of earlier military service of Archibald with the British Army prior to coming to Canada. The Royal Corps were like an engineering corps but part of the British Army. I am trying to find out more about them but I don't think came to Canada with the British Army but more likely was one of the former Napoleonic war vets from both the British Army and Navy who were encouraged to settle in Canada following 1815. But without detailed proof I can't really be certain of Archibald's military history before he arrived in Quebec.

Alexander received a official document recognizing that he had approved a land grant dated 1821 and it interestingly mentioned Range 7 Lot 9 though and not Range 7 Lot 7 where the 1851 census indicates he was living in 1851 and likely for some years before that. So I dont know when your family ended up on Range 7 Lot 7 but that is where I think if the Quebec archives or a local Grenville Township land office has Index of lot by Range no. and Lot no with summary of transaction history from the original owner to more recent times one could easily get a sense like with the Ontario land records of when they acquired land at Range 7 Lot 7 and anywhere else nearby and when they sold it. I would check the land transaction history of 7-7 7-9 and other neighbouring lots particularly any that have the name Benjamin Steele on them in the 1800's as they may have some info identifying Archibald Livingston as the original owner. I think it is significant that a witness was a Cook at Alexander and Catharine wedding of 1833 and that a Cook family were an old seller family in Grenville Twp. and their neighbours. It think it may have confirmed that Alexander and possibly his father Archibald before him lived in this part of 7th range.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Re: Archibald Livingston of Lobo Township, Middlesex Cty.Ont

Postby david.livingstone » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:36 pm

Hi Donald -

FYI. FamilyTreeDNA kit arrived this morning and I mailed it back earlier this afternoon. As I'm in the United States today I expect they'll receive the kit in the next couple of days. I'll of course keep you updated on the progress - I'm quite excited to see the results.
david.livingstone
 
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:19 pm

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