Angus Livingstone& Margaret (Hall/McPhail), Shiaba, Mull

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Donald,

Some more info on Angus & Donald, which has them listed as brothers, again, there is no verification, as yet, but it is on a usually reliable site, if correct, it would provide more weight to our earlier theory that they were brothers.

Info is as follows;

Neil Livingstone b. abt. 1739, married Christina Boyd, resident around Shiaba.

Family;

1. Mary b. abt. 1770, d. 1860, married John McGilvray, they had one son Lachlan, b. abt. 1800 Shiaba, d. 24 April 1870 Shiaba.

2. Female b.abt. 1773, Shiaba.

3. Angus b. abt. 1775, Kilpatrick/Shiaba, married Margaret Hall.

4. Donald b. abt. 1777, Shiaba, d. 27 Sept. ???? ( The year of death is available, I'll put it in later ) at Ardtun, married Christina Campbell.

John

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

The death information states that widower Donald Livingston died at the age of 84 yrs on September 27, 1866 at Ardtun, Kilfinichen Parish, Argyllshire. He is listed as a pauper. Parents Neil Livingston and Christina Campbell. His wife's name was Christina or Cirsty Campbell so the last name could be wrong.
The age is also wrong as the 1841, 1851 and 1861 Census all records him age 65,75 and 85 with a birthdate of about 1776. The 1861 Census lists Donald as a pauper former agricultural labor. 1851 Census records Donald and Cirsty at Ardturr (Ardtun) Knockan.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

The "other Livingston who resided in the area was a Duncan Livingston b. abt. 1786 of Creich, Kilfinichen Parish, Ross of Mull who married Margaret McCormick in 1811 and lived there from time to time. There is a chance that Duncan was the younger brother of Angus and Donald as there werent that many Livingstones in the late 1700's in Southern Ross of Mull. You also mentioned that one of Angus Livingstone's daughters and her husband were at one time at Creich. Duncan appears to have died before 1851 and therefore a detailed death entry does not exist apparently.

regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Donald,

I suspect probably his wife was Christina Campbell, & his mother Christian or Christina Boyd, another one we will probably never know for sure, just have to keep looking,

John

[b9russell]

To the Ladies & Gentlemen of this forum I say "many thanks".
Let me explain.

I am James Russell b. Glasgow & now living in West Lothian, Scotland.
My family history has been on the back burner for 8 or more years.
On Sat 24Jun12 I received my Glasgow & West Of Scotland FHS quarterly magazine and saw an
entry that the LDS website had been updated.
I took a look.
I quickly found things that had not been available in previous years.
Suitably stimulated, I Googled a few names including Livingston & McPhail.
BINGO - I found your forum.

I am a direct descendant of Jane Livingston ch.28Jan1829.
You have almost no info on this lady so here goes.

My fathers father was
John Russell b.08Mar1893 Glasgow d.23Nov78 Lancaster
His parents were
John Russell b.18Sep1845 Carnwath d.08Oct1898 Glasgow.
Janet (Jessie) Logan b.13Mar1857 Glasgow d.14Feb1938 Glasgow.

Janet Logans parents were
Edward (Jacob) Logan b.1824-25 85 Trongate Glasgow d.15Mar1895 Poorhouse Glasgow
Jane (Jean) Livingston ch.18Jan1829 as above.

In 2001 I viewed their marraige OPR at Park Circus Glasgow viz
Married 26Dec1848 in Paisley by Rev. M Laxton
Jacob Logan (24) weaver of Castle St High Par. Paisley
Jane Livingston (20) of Croft St High Par. Paisley
No entries for Parents or witnesses.

In 2002 I visited the Mitchell Library in Glasgow.
I obtained copies of 4 x Poor Law records re the pair
viz
01May1861
by Edward Logan & Jean Livingstone
resident - 139 Great Eastern Road Glasgow
cause of application - Ill Health
his occupation - weaver
children
Margaret (8) born 'Gorbals or Govan'
Janet (6) born Camlachie
Andrew (2 & half) born Camlachie
James (12) b. Paisley (not living at home)
(Parents - no entries)
later entries are
03May1861 Refused - able bodied and working
29Aug1862 Roll @ 2/6 w each & app father
05Feb1863 Not Found
01Jun1863 Poho
1863 Children on Orphan Roll.

20Dec1861
by Edward Logan & Jean Livingston
resident - 139 Great Eastern Road Glasgow
cause of application - "Wife Ill Health and he cannot get leaving her to look for work, leaving no person -------"
his occupation - weaver
her occupation - domestic
children
James (11) born Quin St Paisley
Margaret (7) born Stirling St Laurieston Govan
Janet (6) born Present House
Andrew (2 & half) born Present House
Parents
"James Logan & Janet Wood Deceased" and "Angus Livingston & Margt McPhail Deceased"
later entry
23Dec1861 Roll 4/- w 4 w

07Feb1865
by Edward Logan
residence - "walking the streets" & "Idle & Destitute"
born - 85 Trongate Glasgow
Condition - Widower Age - 40 Occupation - Weaver
children
Margaret (10) born Stirling St Govan
Janet (6 & 10/12) born 163 Gt Eastern Road
"both children with friends in Islay"
Other info
"son of James Logan a wright who died about 20 yrs ago and Janet Wood who died about 4 yrs ago"
"Protestant"
On the reverse of the form is a list of 19 addresses where he had lived in the previous 12 years.
The times spent are listed against each address, mostly Govan, Gorbals, Glasgow & Barony.

15Feb1893
by Edward Logan
residence - 18 Bluevale St back rt
"Earns from 10/- to 12/- wk in Laird & Thomsons" but complains of being "idle for 2 weeks" re no work during the winter.
"He complains of Bronchitis"
"Wife complains of palpitations of the heart. She informs me that she is debt to everyone through idleness of husband"
"They appear decent".
Parents
"James Logan joiner & Mary Woods both dead"
Wife
Agnes O'Neil born Gt Eastern Rd 60yrs domestic "daughter of Hugh O'Neil weaver and Janet Little both dead".
"No family by present marraige"
"1st wife Jane Livingstone died 30yrs ago".
Family
Margaret (40) 16yrs in Australia
Janet (34) 20 yrs in Australia
Andrew (32) 20 yrs in Australia
"No word from the above - cant say whether dead or alive"
The reverse is full of notes re this and later applications.
Of interest are
08Mar1895 Edward admitted to Poho & died on 15Mar1895
On 03Nov1896 & again on 24Dec1896 "Widow" admitted to Poorhouse.
18Jan1897 "she died suddenly at 18 Bluevale and burial granted"


Sadly I have no original documents for Jane Livingston.
I have 2 letters addressed to Margaret Monaghan (Logan) dated 1925 when she was trying to trace
her dob with the Parish of Glasgow. She was then living in Fife but who knows if the others were in Australia.

I have no record of Jane Livingstons death but I'm now sure I will find it.
It appears she died Feb/March/April/May 1863.
The entry "01Jun1863 Poho" is significant - Edward is admitted to the Poorhouse.
The entries with the addresses show he moved house about March 1863 having lived 9 months in Society St Barony.
Thereafter he moves from address to address, some of which are Model Lodging Houses.

My father used to say that the Livingstons were from Islay and also that they were related to Dr David Livingston.
About 25 yrs ago I viewed his family tree at the Blantyre Visitor Centre and was told that many Livingston's claim descent.
I was not surprised when I read your forum entries re Dr Livingston.

So its thanks again to this forum.
My LDS printout dated 29Aug01 with Angus & Mrs Kall/Hall/Hale noted as "probable" has proved to be correct.
You have filled in many holes in the Livingston tree and have also rekindled my interest in genealogy.

Jim Russell

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Jim,
Welcome to the Maclea Livingstone Society Forum. I am glad to hear that the information provided by our participants on our forum has helped launch a quest for knowledge regarding your own Livingston ancestors. We are the official forum for Clan Maclea Livingstone established by our Clan Chief Baron Niall Livingstone of Bachuil, Lismore. Our Maclea Livingstone Society Website is also filled with interesing information on Clan origins and history.
I would agree with you that your ancestor Mrs Edward Logan (Jane or Jean Livingston) was probably born on the Isle of Islay, Argyllshire and of "highland" Livingston origin. The 1861 Scottish Census tells us that Jane Logan of Glasgow Barony Lanarkshire was born abt. 1829 in Argyllshire and the earlier 1851 Census when she and Edward and eldest son James are residing in Paisley High Church Parish, Renfrewshire "Jean" Logan is recorded as being born abt. 1829 on the Island of Islay Argyllshire.

Jean "Jane" Logan wife of handloom weaver Edward Logan of 139 Great Eastern Road, Glasgow died January 2 1862 age 34 years. Her parents recorded on the death infomation are Angus Livingston farmer and Agnes McPhail. They were apparently deceased by this time. No further information on parents. I will see if the Islay, Argyllshire info records this family.

Jean or Jane Livingston seems to disappear in the earllier 1841 Census but oddly enough there is a Jean Livingston recorded as age 11 and born abt. 1830 who at the time ofthis census is residing with her parents Napoleonic War veteran Angus Livingston and his wife Margaret Hale also known as McpHail. I am wondering if this Jean Livingston or Jane Livingston daugther of Angus Livingston and Agnes Mcphail is actually the daughter of Angus Livingston and Margaret McPhail and someone at the time of her death in 1862 got the mothers first name wrong. John Livingston of Scotland is a descendant of Angus Livingsotn and Margaret McPhail that lived at URagaig, Colonsay circa 1841 and Ross of Mull in the early 1800's. He might have some insight on this next time he visits the forum. My hunch is your Jean Logan is the youngest daughter of old ANgus Livingston and his wife Margaret Hale also known as McPhail named Jean Livingston born abt. 1830 or 1829 possilby on the Island of Islay in highland Argyllshire and the " Agnes" Mcphail on the her 1862 death record is an error. Should read margaret macphail in my oppinion.
regards,

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Clan Maclea Livingstone Society
Historian

[jmlivingstone]

James/Donald,

I have Jane/Jeans death cert., she died of consumption at 139, Great Eastern Road, Glasgow, on 2nd. Jan. 1862 at age 34, death registered by Edward Logan, handloom weaver, her husband.

The only problem the death cert. raises, it shows her mother as Agnes McPhail, not Margaret, & Angus as being what appears to be a farmer, where everywhere else, he is listed as a Chelsea Pensioner. Not that it is uncommon for registrars to make mistakes, in names etc., otherwise, dates fit in well, & I will be delighted to have my doubts proved wrong.

Assuming it is the correct Jane, she would have been born at either Shiaba or Kilpatrick, Isle of Mull, not Islay, then by the time of the1841 census, the family were resident at Uragaig, Isle of Colonsay.

By the 1851 census John Livingstone, his wife Agnes Edmiston & family, including Jane & son john who I am descended from, were resident around Kilmeny, Isle of Islay, my grandfather John & grandmother Margaret McGilvray moved from Islay to Greenock. John died in Greenock in 1928 & Margaret in 1944.

The Glasgow area did not appear to be too kind to the Livingstone family, another sister Anne, who was married to a Gilbert McPhail from Islay, died in Govan Poorhouse.

James, as a matter of interest, did your family by any chance live on Petershill Rd, Glasgow, or did you know of any Livingstone family members who lived there, I don't remember the families name, but they came from Islay, my father used to regularly visit these relations at this address, probably in the early 1960's.

John

[b9russell]

Donald & John

Many thanks for all your info.
I also think Jane was born at Shiaba.

I agree that the Agnes for the mothers name is an obvious error.
Given the circumstances of her death at an early age I think he got it wrong on the day.
At least he got McPhail correct (ie not Hall Hale Kall).

Re mistakes by Registrars etc.
There are 5 reasons why such a mistake was made at registration viz
1. The parents were illiterate (or couldn't spell).
2. The Registrar was illiterate (or couldn't spell).
3. The parents were drunk.
4. The Registrar was drunk.
5. Any combination of the previous 4.
(A genealogical joke for you all to quote the next time you get the chance).

Re Petershill Road.
I have no known family connections with that area (or even the northside of the city).
Nor do I know of any Livingstone family members who lived there.
I, however, know the area very well.
2 of my 30yrs Police service was walking (prowling) about there as a young PC in the early 1970's.
I was thereafter in the CID covering that area.
I recall a lot of it being demolished in the 1970's.
There were many 'teuchters' (Glasgow expression for persons of highland origin) in the area but really it was no different from any other.
The teuchters were everywhere (and many of them ended up in the Police).

If anyone reading this needs help in the future with Glasgow place names, addresses, etc then I'll be happy to assist.
I have some of my FHS publications which are invaluable re the street name & no's which were changed in the late 1800's.

Thanks again.
Jim Russell

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Jim and John,

Sorry I kinda contradicted myself there regarding Jeans stated origin on the Isle of Islay. That is probably an error. Yes of course it should be have been in one of villages located on Kilfininchen Parish, Ross of Mull. Sorry about that. I was not certain until the very last that Jeans parents were quike likely ANgus Livingston and Margaret McPhail. I should have said that not only is the Agnes McPhail on Jean's death record a probable error (should read Margaret McPhail) but I believe that information on the 1851 Scottish census stating she was born on the Isle of Islay likely an error. I believe this Jean or Jane Livingston may be the Jane Livingston baptised 18/01/1829 at Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon Parish on Ross of Mull recorded as the daughter of Angus Livingston and Margaret Hale (McPhail). I realize Jim that the information is not totally clear on this but there are I think a few clues here pointing to the likihood that this is the younger daughter of old Angus and his wife Margaret McPhail. Just too many coincidences come into play here.
1. Jim's Jean Livingston is said at least in the census records to be born abt. 1829 and is a Jane referred to as Jean in the records for the most part rather than Jane. Sure enough ANgus Livingston and Margaret McPhail daughter was apparently referred to as both Jane in her 1829 baptismal record and Jean as indicated in the 1841 Census at Uragaig, Colonsay.
2. Her 1862 death record sure enough states that her father was named "Angus Livingston and mother a "McPhail". Grant you not listed as Margaret but taken together what are the odds that Jim's ancestor would be another Jean Livingston born abt. 1829 in Argyllshire dauther of an Angus Livingson and a McPhail.
3. Old Angus a Chelsea Pensioner may have received his pension for his service in the British Army but there is little doubt at the time of the 1841 Census he had made his home as a tenant farmer with his wife and some of his children in a croft at Uragaig, Colonsay not far from Ross of Mull where he was likely born at Shiaba. I havent looked at the 1829 record but at the time of his daughter Jeans baptism he and Margaret were still at Ross of Mull. Somewhere in an early posting I listed all the villages where the children of Angus and margaret were residing when they were baptised on Ross of Mull in Kilfinichen Parish.

But I agree is not 100 percent clear.

regards,

Donald

[b9russell]

Hi Donald

I totally agree with your comment "Just too many coincidences come into play here".

I think it was common then that Jane and Jean were interchanged, Jane being the given name and Jean the 'using' name.
I have come across this a number of times and also have it in one of my wifes lines.

To add to "Jane in her 1829 baptismal record and Jean as indicated in the 1841 Census".
The Poor Law reports I am looking at convince me that this is the same with our Jane/Jean.
01May1861 she is present and gives her 'using' name Jean Livingstone (extra E - added by Officer in error ?)
20Dec1861 she is present and gives Jean Livingston (no E) age 34 born on 'Island of Islay' (sorry I ommitted this earlier)
She gives her parents are 'Angus Livingston and Margt McPhail Decd' (no E)
15Feb1893 she is not present (deceased) and he states her given name Jane Livingstone (extra E)

She probably didn't know specifically where she had been born and assumed Islay because she knew her parents had resided there.

Re Margaret or Agnes McPhail.
On 20Dec1861 the Poor Law officer is given 'Margt' probably by Jane/Jean because she is present.
Yet 2-3 weeks later Edward registers the death and gives 'Agnes'.
They married in Paisley on 26Dec1848 - he may well have never known or met her parents.
I am as satisfied as I ever will be that Margaret is correct.

Thanks again.
Jim Russell