Angus Livingstone& Margaret (Hall/McPhail), Shiaba, Mull

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,
Jane Livingston Crofs Street Paisley 1848 Hugh Levingston No. 5 Cross Street Paisley 1851
See wikpedia article on the "Long S". I have come across this "long S" in my family research before when accessing old hand written documents from the 18th and early part of the 19th century in North America as well. It has confused more than once when reading an old deed, particularly when the handwriting is difficult to read in the first place as is more often than not.

It was in common use in the 18th and part of the 19th century in England. Looks much like a f and creates a lot of confusion today. Apparently the leading S or the first s where there were two letter s's in a word was sometime was written to look somewhat like a lower case f as in the case of a word such as "Cross. I have seen it in a few documents. I believe it is being used in the 1848 marriage record of Jane Livingston and Jacob Logan in Paisley. If you enlarge the address given for Jane Livingston at the time of the marriage in the original marriage ledger it looks to me "Crofs Street" but upon closer inspection I suspect it is not a f I think but that 19th century "long S" in which case the clerk meant "Cross Street" which if is the case would mean that Jane at the time of her marriage in 1848 was residing with her brother Hugh Livingston the weaver at No. 5 Cross Street. This was Hugh Livingston's address in Paisley, Renfrewshire given in the 1851 Census. As mentioned a check with Map Quest shows that Cross Street in Paisley is a little west of the University of the West of Scotland. I think this also fits with your own notion that Jane and her brother Hugh Livingston and probably ANgus Livingston prior to his death were residing together in Paisley before Jane married her husband Jacob (Edward) Logan in 1848. Presumingly when they first arrived in Paisley they were residing at No. 4 Moncrieff Street as that is the address of Hugh Livingston and his wife "Jean Shennan" given in their son Hugh's 1846 birth record.

regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Kyle/Donald,

I came across this article, in ref. to use of the long type 's' ;

''In genuine old-style printing it can appear that the letter f is used in place of the letter s. However, it is not the letter f, but a long form of the letter s (derived from handwriting styles), which looks very similar to f but does not have a complete cross-bar. It is not used at the ends of words, and in words where there is a double s, it is sometimes paired with a short s (which results in a compound letter like the German double-s (or `sz') symbol `ß'). It fell out of fashion with printers rather suddenly in about 1780.''

I don't suppose it matters whether the street was Croft or Cross, the important bit is, we have proven they were at the same address in Paisley in the mid 1800's, & can assume Angus probably died there in 1847.
Cross Street is not too far from Elderslie, the birthplace of William Wallace.

I searched National Archives of Scotland, unfortunately, Paisley have no OPR death records for this period.

Another piece of info I came across, which could explain why a daughter of Angus & Margaret had no christian name on the OPR, apparently, if a child was stillborn, or died shortly after birth, no christian name was registered.

Donald, I passed the latest info on Angus to Michael at Mull Families, he has added it to the site, & you have been credited on the site with finding the info.

Kyle, I reckon there is about 12-15 years work so far in researching this branch of the Livingstone Clan, & probably about the same time to go to complete it, there are still 2-3 of Angus' children to sort out.

One son, Duncan, possibly emigrated to Australia, a few days ago, I came across a reference to a Duncan at Mount Gambier, which is where Duncans' brother-in-law & family had emigrated.
Whether this is the Duncan I am looking for or not, I don't as yet know, that's next weeks project.

I have also been in contact with a relative who lives in Glasgow, who reckons we have family on Skye, I'm still waiting further details from him.

John

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,
Thanks for that. I have not visited the Mull genealogy site for a while but recall it had a lot of family info including a number of Livingstons. THe Angus Livingston death info was not clearly written on that page and at first and until I enlarged I was not sure what the note was referring to. And of course I did not know that ANgus had ever lived in Paisley or any of his family. When I typed in Paisley on our forum search it took me to Jim Russell's posting on his ancestors Jacob (Edward ) Logan and Jane Livingston who lived in Paisley in the 1840's and 1850's. Then I eventually realized that Hugh Livingston also resided in Paisley at that same time. So I realized that ANgus very likely did indeed die in Paisley 30/10 1847. Jim Russell a descendant of Jacob? Edward Logan and Angus Livingston's youngest daughter Jane/Jean Livingston is from West Lothian. THat would make him a distant cousin of yours. He was really interested in the information he found on Angus Livingston and family on the forum that you put together over the last few years. If you want to contact him in Scotland, Kyle may have contact info. I reprinted his original post and included in post of my own on Feb. 14th 2015 if you need to refresh you memory on Jim's ancestral line. Good luck with your Australian research.

regards,

Donald

[Kyle MacLea]

Kyle, I reckon there is about 12-15 years work so far in researching this branch of the Livingstone Clan, & probably about the same time to go to complete it, there are still 2-3 of Angus' children to sort out.

Given how you have found things I never thought you would find, I believe you'll sort them out! And I will enjoy continuing to follow the story.

Kyle=

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Donald,

According to the computer, Jim & myself are something like 3rd cousins 1x removed, whatever that translates to in normal English,

John

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,
I don't know how often Jim visits this forum, but no doubt he will be interested to learn that we now have an apparent death date for Jane Logan's father ANgus Livingston in Paisley, Renfrewshire.

regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Donald,

I'll email him in the morning,

John

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

I noticed in Jim's last post here he mentioned he did not have the death information on his ancestor Jean/Jane Logan daughter of Angus Livingston. I include it from an earlier post of mine.


1862 Death of Jean Logan
High Church District Burgh of Glasgow
Jean Logan married to Edward Logan Handloom Weaver died January 2, 1862 age 34 years of Consumption at residence of Edward Logan Parents recorded: Angus Livingston farmer deceased and Agnes Livingston maiden name "McPhail". Obviously Agnes is an error on husband Edward's part. He should have stated Margaret Livingston maiden name McPhail. This record of course helps to verify that Jean or Jane Logan wife Edward Logan was in fact a daughter of your ancestor ANgus Livingston. THe death record tells us that Jean Logan had been suffering from Consumption for at least one year before she died which ties in with info that James found from the Poor Law records which state that in 1861 Edward Logan's wife was ill.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

Here is a good summary of your early information on your ancestor Angus Livington. I was wondering about the statement that there were no children born between 1824 and 1829 in item 8. Jane Livingston was baptised January 18, 1829 in Ross of Mull. I am not certain when she was born, but perhaps a few weeks earlier. If that is the case then the oldest was born abt. 1805 and the youngest born abt. 1828/1829 would you think? Probably left for nearby Colonsay sometime between 1830 and 1840. I am thinking that Jane was born after 1824 or 1825. I noticed that Mull Genealogy also did not have any children of Angus and Margaret born after 1825. I was wondering what your thoughts are on this.

jmlivingstone wrote:
Posts on Angus & Margaret appear to be getting a bit messy, with bits of information spread in various areas of other topics, hopefully it can all be brought together at this location, & will make life easier for everyone to check out the contents.

Below is a brief timeline on Angus, parts of this are known to be correct, some are speculation at present,

1.1775 - Angus b. abt. 1775 @ Shiaba, Mull.

2.1779- Census 1779 has Neil, occ. keeper, sons Donald & Angus, plus wife & 4 daughters, Neil is possibly father of Angus b. abt. 1775.

3.1787/8 - Angus joins army, probably before 1787-8, he would probably have to be around 12 years old to enlist, he was out of the army with a pension by 1804-5, this would just cover the minimum 12 year service requirement to be classed as a Chelsea Pensioner at that time.

4. 1802 - Angus found as a patient in Kilmainham Military Hospital, Dublin.

5.1804/5- Angus marries Margaret Hall (McPhail ?? ) probably 1804-5 possibly earlier, Margarets birthplace unknown, listed in some records as “foreign places”, possibly her father was also in the military. Most records seem to think her family were also from Mull originally.

6.1805– First daughter b. Glasgow, Angus working in textile industry.

7.1806/7– Family return to Mull, rest of family born on Mull.

8.1824/29– No further family born from 1824-29, where was Angus in this period, possibly back in the army ??

9.1840- Somewhere around this time, Angus, Margaret & some family members move from Mull to Uragaig, Colonsay.

10.1841- Scottish census of 1841 has Angus, Margaret & some family members, plus the illusive James, all resident at Uragaig, Colonsay. Their son John & wife Agnes had a son Neil, b. abt. 10.06.1842 on Colonsay, so far not found out if they were also resident at Uragaig, Colonsay.

11.1841- Neither Angus or Margaret have been found in any records since 1841.


John


regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,
1829 Jane Livingston baptised January 18, 1829 Ross of Mull
1848 marriage of Jane Livingston and Jacob (Edward) Logan Dec. 26. 1848 age listed for Jane is 20 Paisley Renfrewshire b. abt. 1828?

1851 Census Jean Logan born Islay ?, Argyll age 22 Paisley, Renfrewshire b. abt. 1829?

1861 Census Jane Logan born Argyll age 32 High Church Glasgow Barony b. abt. 1829?

Died January 2, 1862 age 34 b. abt. 1828? High Church Glasgow Barony

I am leaning toward sometime late in 1828 or early in January of 1829 for the actual birth date. The Argyll records tend to be baptisms rather than births for some reason, though that is not often made clear in the secondary sources sometimes. The old Argyll parish books tended to record marriages and baptisms without including birth dates. Some of the lowland parishes included both.


regards,

Donald