Angus Livingstone& Margaret (Hall/McPhail), Shiaba, Mull

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jmlivingstone
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: Angus Livingstone& Margaret (Hall/McPhail), Shiaba, Mul

Post by jmlivingstone »

Hi Donald,

I just emailed you a copy of Janes baptism OPR, it has her as being baptised on 18 Jan. 1829, death as you say of consumption, on 02 Jan. 1862 at Great Eastern Rd., Glasgow, I have a copy of this certificate also.

As a matter of interest, I'm not sure if it was only a Scots/Irish thing or not, older folk, my g/mother included, used to say that a baby should not leave the house until after it had been baptised, this continued at least into the mid 1970's, although, I doubt if many younger folk listened.

I've probably mentioned this before, according to www.scotsfamily.com, it was quite common in Scotland, for a female to be known by her mothers maiden surname, their research suggests, this could be the reason Margaret is sometimes called Hall, & at others McPhail.

John
Canadian Livingstone
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Angus Livingstone& Margaret (Hall/McPhail), Shiaba, Mul

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi John,
Thanks for that.
I noticed that several years ago when researching on my mother's side of the family, my scottish great-great-great grandfather Robert Reid farmer, retired sailor and artist in the Canadian census records that his elderly wife was recorded with her maiden name Watson I think it was. At first that confused me as I had never seen that done before in census records. I think as you say I have seen that from time to time in the Scottish census records. Very helpful of course if your trying to determine what your great-great-great grandmother's maiden name was. I was researching Robert Reid in Canada years ago now, but recently I searched for their marriage record with the full name of his wife known and discovered that while they lived in the lowlands before coming to the Canada in the 1850's they actually originated from Southern Argyllshire. Campbelltown or somewhere around there.I was not aware of that. My grandfather's cousin told me that she remembered that my great-great-great grandfather's paintings were in the homes of a number of relatives in Canada she recalled in the early 1900's in her youth. My mother's cousin before he died, gave me what I suspect is now the only surviving one in existence about 10 years ago.I have noticed that a lot of British military men in the 19th century used to enjoy sketching as a pastime. One of my mom's relative's was in the Crimean War in the mid 1850''s and I have been having fun going through old British newspapers and military records with some success finding a significant paper trail on his military career. It was at that time that I found that information on your ancestor Angus Livingston in his pension record page from the 1840's.

regards,

Donald
jmlivingstone
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: Angus Livingstone& Margaret (Hall/McPhail), Shiaba, Mul

Post by jmlivingstone »

Hi Donald,

Apparently, covering mirrors after a death, is common in parts of Scotland, Ireland & Belgium,

John
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Angus Livingstone& Margaret (Hall/McPhail), Shiaba, Mul

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi John,
There is very large community in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia of highland Scottish decent and in the case of the this Livingston family it would have been a custom I assume from the old country during a wake. It is interesting to read up about this custom which I knew nothing about. Just a little bit spooky don't you think, like something out a Stephen King novel. I had tothe privilege of being in touch an elderly gentleman a few years ago now, whose mother attended that Livingston wake around 1907 and among the Livingston family history information he passed on to me was that interesting story about the wake of his relative an old pioneer Livingston in Cape Breton. I understand also that Gaelic still thrives in Cape Breton.

regards,

Donald
b9russell
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:51 am

Re: Angus Livingstone& Margaret (Hall/McPhail), Shiaba, Mul

Post by b9russell »

Hi to John, Donald, Kyle, et al

Sorry I haven't been visiting the site much in recent times.
I've been outwith the UK for most of the past 6 months.
I've just returned from Florida - OK so I'm a poor senior who likes travelling !!!
I do however expect to be at home here in Scotland for the next 4 months.

Thanks John for the 3 scans emailed on 01Mar15.
I've only now been able to update myself re Angus L.
A lot of good detective work has been done by John & Donald - well done guys.

Jim Russell
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Angus Livingstone& Margaret (Hall/McPhail), Shiaba, Mul

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Jim,
John is actually the expert on all things to do with his ancestor old Angus Livngston of Shiaba, Ross of Mull and his wife Margaret McPhail later residing on nearby Isle of Colonsay at Uragaig. I just help out from time to time. He has done a lengthy study of Angus and his family tree over the years. I am not related to old Angus. My ancestor is Miles Livingston b. 1775 was from Morvern, Argyll, but no doubt John and I share a distant Maclea Livingstone ancestor I assume, way back sometime in Western Argyll history.

See my recent forum post on Shiaba Ross of Mull article by the Mull Historical and Archaelogical Society. Has a detailed map of the ruins of the crofts at Shiaba useful if you ever make a trip to Shiaba. Somewhere there perhaps may be the ruins of your and John's Livngston ancestor birthplace. We know from a 1779 Argyll Census that old Angus born abt. 1775 or around that time and his brother Donald were residing with their father Neil Livingston at Shiaba, Ross of Mull. Later birth records of both Angus and his brother Donald indicate that they were both for a time residing at Shiaba before moving on to other places at Ross of Mull. Angus probably sometime in the 1830's headed for Uragaig on the nearby Isle of Colonsay. You can apparently the see Colonsay from the southern Mull shores at Ross of Mull. Later Angus Livingston's brother Donald Livingston and his familly left Ross of Mull for Ontario Canada.

Good news on the Angus Livingstone research front. I dont know if you are aware about this. (John may have contacted you a few months back) . A while back (February I think) I was going through old military records on a great uncle who served with the British mililtary in the 1850's and stumbled across a Chelsea Pension record page I had not noticed before for the RIfle Brigade of the Argyll Fencibles that included information on the former soldier/veteran circa the 1840's. It appears to be a Chelsea Pension document perhaps the last Chelsea Pension record for the former Napoleonic War veteran and CHelsea Pensioner ANgus Livingston, John's ancestor. This is what it stated:

Chelsea Pension Record with info from 1840's (appears to be last record with info pertaining to Napoleonic War/Chelsea Pensioner fomerly of the Argyll Fencibles Angus Livingston

Page from Chelsea Pension Records
Rifle Brigade, Argyll Fencibles
Name Angus Livingston
Rate 4 3/4
Date of Admission 4 January 02 (1802)
Residence (1802) Argyll
1847 (under the column year 1847) Paisley died 3of10 or 30/10 (obviously Paisley,Renfrewshire)

the death information was recorded for the other pensioners of the Argyll fencibles included on this page in the same manner so I believe that this was a clerk recording that when these veterans/chelsea pensioners died and thus no longer receiving their pension. Makes sense that such information was recorded and kept on file and this page apparently states that ANgus Livingston died in 1847 in Paisley, Renfrewshire Scotland apparently on the 30th of October or 3rd day of October. Now I checked out to see if there was any evidence to suggest that old ANgus Livingston was living in Paisley, Renfrewshire Scotland in the 1840's and infact I located a son and daughter that was residing in Paisley at the time of his death and are also in the 1851 Census in the Paisley area. So it is almost certain that a clerk was recording former Argyll resident Angus Livingston's death date in 1847 at Paisley, Scotland. Cant remember if I posted this on the forum. Have to check this to refresh my memory on the details. John probably remembers. Anyways just thought you might want to know about this if you don't already. You have not probably been to the forum and not certain I mentioned it to you earlier.

This is a message I sent a few months ago in Feb. to John:


Hi John,
So there is no doubt that Hugh and family were in Paisley a year or so before the 30/10 1847 the date included in the document I located. When I first saw " Paisley" on the document I immediately went to the forum and searched for any references to Paisley Livingstons and sure enough came across Jim Russell's posting from back when about his ancestor Edward Logan and Jane/Jean Livingston a daughter of old Angus Livingston who resided in Paisley, Refrewshire. Then I check the 1851 census and found them there. Later I realized that Jean's brother Hugh (Livingston) also lived in Paisley. All of that plus the fact that Hugh's son Robert was born in Paisley as far back as 1846 clearly indicated that both Hugh and likely his sister Jean/Jane were residing in Paisley around 1847 when the Chelsea Pension records were stating that old ANgus Livingston had "Died".

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Angus Livingstone& Margaret (Hall/McPhail), Shiaba, Mul

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi John,

Funny I thought I had posted information on ANgus Livington's 1847 death date in Paisley Renfrewshire where his son Hugh and daughter Jean/Jane Logan were residing by the latter part of the 1840's but apparently I did not. Anyways it is now included in that previous message to your cousin Jim today. We discussed the 1847 death info on ANgus on Feb. 23 of 2015 I think it was by e-mail, but i dont think it came up later in a Forum discussion. Perhaps you have already been in contact with Jim regarding the new Angus Livingston info. In any event you never know another Angus Livingston descendant might drop by the forum in the future.

I have going through the vast number of e-mails I have accumulated since about 2007 regarding Clan Livingstone on my laptop and been trying to rescue some of the valuable info from past years that is still there. Helps to refresh the old memory also. So much Livingston. I may have to get a second brain to remember it all. Not to mention all the Livingstons that have been discussed on the forum over the years which is even greater in number.

regards,

Donald
b9russell
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:51 am

Re: Angus Livingstone& Margaret (Hall/McPhail), Shiaba, Mul

Post by b9russell »

Hi Donald
Many thanks for your message.
John had emailed me the 3 Pension scans back on 01Mar15.

I've now had a good look at the Pension log re the date of death 30Oct or 03Oct.
It's not the word "of" or is it 03Oct.
The clerk who scribed the entries had a habit of running his pen from the figure to the stroke.
Altho' not always but there are 5 other similar entries on that page.
The convincing 1 is 3rd from the bottom, the chap Hunter who died 02Oct1846.
When compared to Angus's entry I'm satisfied that his date of death was 30Oct1847.

I agree that the coding below the entry is an Army coding of sorts.
When compared to others on the page (Mcany (Mcarry ?) & Bullivant) it is most likely E44913 over 48.

Thanks again.
Jim Russell
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Angus Livingstone& Margaret (Hall/McPhail), Shiaba, Mul

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Jim,

The funny thing was that I had pretty much given up any hope of finding any further information on John's ancestor (and yours) as he did not seem to be recorded in 1851 Census and i knew it unlikely that any entry of his death would be found. So I was not looking for information on his death when I noticed a Chelsea pension record under ANgus Livingston. I just assumed it was same Chelsea pension information that John and I had seen before. But I just checked the document just to be sure and then I noticed that it had a bunch of dates from the 1840's and 1850's with the word died and what appears to be a day and month and town recorded. Like you I noticed the information for Angus and compared how the clerk recorded the other entries by year and it was pretty clear to me that he had recorded a death date for angus indicating he had died in the town of Paisley. Any doubts disappeared when I went back to your forum posting where you mentioned Jean Logan daughter of old Angus residing in Paisley Renfrewshire and recorded in the 1851 census with her husband. And then I noticed that her brother Hugh also was a resident of Paisley by this time. Later I discovered and confirmed that both Jean and brother Hugh would have been residing in Paisley in 1847 when their father died. So there was no doubt that clerk had recorded what may been a final entry for ANgus Livingston's CHelsea Pension record. If it had not been for my cousin on my mom's side asking me to complete a family history and looking for military records on my great-great Uncle who was a doctor in the British Army from the 1850's to the 1870's I would not have even been doing a search of old military records. I must confess I am pretty much given up on finding anything more to do with you great-great-great grandfather. Funny how these things happen by chance.

regards,

Donald
b9russell
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:51 am

Re: Angus Livingstone& Margaret (Hall/McPhail), Shiaba, Mul

Post by b9russell »

Hi Donald
Funny indeed.
But many thanks indeed.
We are all due a lucky break every now and then.

I agree that it's unlikely we'll get much more info on Angus.
But never say never.
Jim R
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