Angus Livingstone& Margaret (Hall/McPhail), Shiaba, Mull

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

It would be better to wait until permission can be granted. The photo I posted in the forum collection of Donald Livingston's parent's tabletomb he had constructed for them around 1760 Keil Cemetery, Morvern came to me courtesy of and with permission of the late Donald MacInnes of Cumbernauld who was formerly of the Clan MacInnes Society and often visited the gravesite. It is a quite impressive actually and obviously Donald must of spent a considerable sum in those days to have it created for his parents John Livingston and Ann McInnis of Savary, Morvern. There is a plack in Donald's memory erected in more recent times honoring him but it is not clear to me if Donald and his wife Janet (Jean) Stewart were buried in that cemetery. I do know that some of his children who died in the 1850's in Morvern were infact buried in Keil Cemetery so I would think Donald and his wife also. I just have not seen a gravestone for them. Was Donald buried with his father and MOther in Keil Cemetery? I am not sure.

Donald Livingston born in 1728 and died in 1816 at savary, Morvern. In his later years he was remembered in the early 1800's operating a hotel at Savary clad in his kilt and sitting from of his establishment he would remininese with friends and patrons about Battle of Culloden and the old days. Ironically he apparently had on hand a good whiskey from Culloden. I cant remember whether or not kin of Duncan Forbes of Culloden owned the distillery. It was something I read a long time ago. After much digging I discovered that most of the children of Donald and Janet Livingston did not leave the Morvern at all but died in Morvern in the 1800's. Piecing the family so far I came up Adam who worked the mill at Savary, another brother Alexander was also a miller, and there was another brother Robert and a daughter Ann who were last of the children to reside at Savary. Robert and Ann never marrried. At one time I thought Robert was Donald grandson but his death record proved him to be Donald Livingston and Jane Stewarts son. Adam who died in the early 1800's was one of his older sons apparently possibly born in the 1760's. Some of the other children were born in the 1770's and 1780's perhaps when Donald was in his forties and fifties. Adam is by local tradition a son of Donald Livingston. I have no proven documentation on that. and Alexander Livingstons son is recorded in a death record of Ann or Robert as their nephew so therefore Alexander was a brother. Clever detective work on identifying ALexander as a son of Donald actually. Alexander died before 1855 in Morvern so we have no record of his death.

The table tomb from 1760 is quite ornate and even in its slightly worn condition it is still something to admire as a Maclea Livingston and as someone who has roots with a Morvern Livingston. The heraldry is interesting on the stone and though faded one can make out a ship and three other symbols in the quarterly coat of arms, Donald apparently had created for his Savary, Maclea Livingston family. There is no official record or registry of this particular Maclea Livingstone coat of arms and it not one that is in use today. It does however have some apparent similarity to other Western Argyll style quarterly coat of Arms of Western Argyll highland clans.

regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

I think I may have just found another bit of the jigsaw puzzle for descendants of Angus & Margaret, a James Cooper Livingstone, b. 1895 in Edinburgh, d. 1961 in London.

James parents were Neil McLean Livingstone & Elizabeth Cooper, Elizabeth died 1928 in Paisley, Scotland, presumably she was living with her daughter, Elizabeth Bell Livingstone, at West Campbell St., Paisley.
Her daughter was married to a John McGibbon, she died at West Campbell St. on 10 July 1940.

This is the family Keith in Oz, reckoned had been left items belonging to Dr. Livingstone.

James married an Agnes Kate Colley, b. 1893 in Benenden, England, d. 1962 in London, they had one son, Chester Roy Livingstone, b. 07 Oct.1918 London, d. 20 July 1988, Auckland, New Zealand.

There are a couple of discrepancies, eg. James is listed as being born in Paisley in 1897, I suspect the tree this was originally posted in is wrong, & they were actually looking at the 1901 census, which lists a James, as the son of Thomas Livingstone, resident at 15, Glen St., Paisley, also, he was b. 1897, not 1895.

I have searched on quite a few sites, & it appears there is only one James Cooper Livingstone listed anywhere, I doubt if I will ever be able to prove 100% that this is the son of Neil & Elizabeth, but the name is not a common one, so, I reckon there is a good chance it is the correct person,

John

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Donald,

Here's a possibility for Angus, I just came across, far from definite, but the nearest I've got so far, dob is in right timescale, a new clue to investigate if nothing else.

It's a pity no more info is readily available, I've had a quick look in a couple of other Mull sites, & this is the only Angus close to the correct dates.

I suppose by 24 years old, he could have had 12 years in the army, at that time they were not too fussy about boy soldiers ages.

The dob of Angus & Margarets first born, 1802 in Glasgow, would also tie in with his discharge date, but, as usual, it will probably never be proven if this is the correct Angus or not.

Royal Hospital Kilmainham, Dublin, was basically a sister hospital to Chelsea, so this Angus was definitely a soldier, not a navyman, a navy pensioner would have been Greenwich Hospital, which narrows things down a bit,

ANGUS LEVINGSTONE alias ANGUS LIVINGSTON; ANGUS LIVINGSTONE.
Born MULL, Argyllshire.
Served in Argyllshire Fencibles.
Discharged aged 24.
Discharged from Royal Hospital Kilmainham, Dublin 1801.

John

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

I have no doubt that is your Angus Livingston. Nice work. The age given I think in the Argyll Census of 1779 would give a birth date of about of 1776 or 1775 and he is only Angus from Mull from that time period I have seem associated with the Chelsea Pension records or this other associated hospital information you have located. This is probably why I could not find him in the Chelsea records when I looked a while back. This is a fantastic breakthrough. It was the "Cape Breton, Nova Scotia Livingston Angus Livingston who was the sailor aboard the King George during the Napoleonic Wars. The vessel was part of the Channel fleet protecting the waters in that area from attacks by the French Navy. Following the war, ANgus settled around 1819 at Bouldelaire, Victoria County, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia and his descendants still reside in Cape Breton. For some reason in the past he was confused with your ancestor Angus Livingston of Ross of Mull and Colonsay. Angus, Donald and Neil were common names amongst highland Livingstons in Mull and neighbouring Morvern so there were likely a number of them during that time period.

His birth date, the mull and Argyll connection,the hospital connection and year he completed his service makes sense with him being back in Ross of Mull in the early 1800's. This is definitely your ancestor. Did you have to complete 12 yrs of service to receive a pension from the British Army in the 1800's?

regards,

Donald



regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Morning Donald,

I just had a look, to qualify as a Chelsea Pensioner only required the applicant to have an army pension, either through 20 years long service, or being unfit for further service due to wounds or an accident.

I suspect Angus may have signed on again at a later date, they have family on a regular basis, then there is a gap of about five years or so, one answer would be if he had recovered from his wounds & signed on again.

Finding this record on Angus, was pure luck, I saw the name Kilmainham, I had never heard of it before, thought it was possibly somewhere in Argyllshire. So I had a look, & eventually, up popped this record, hopefully this will help others trying to find illusive Scottish soldiers records.

Being in Dublin in 1801 opens another area to look at for his marriage, the Colonsay census has Margaret listed as ''born in foreign places'', possibly at that time, Dublin may have been seen as a foreign place by some folk. I very much doubt it, but I've got nothing to lose having a look, & no other ideas at present,

John

[Canadian Livingstone]

HI John,
Sure seems like you found your Angus.
If I understood correctly the Chelsea pensioners included those who were disabled by wounds or accidents and as well as those veterans who had served 20 yrs or more. I would think that young Angus Livingston in the early 1800`s was of the former group. The hospital in Dublin you mentioned included over 15000 registered out pensioners in 1822 and that year they were transferred to the Chelsea Hospital. At that point I assume that Angus would have started to refer to himself then as a Chelsea pensioner or was considered as such by the Government. For many years both hospitals fufilled the same functions regarding the military pensioners. Your definitely on the right track.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

The Kilmainham hospital at DUblin looked after elderly and disabled soldiers. Those soldiers were also referred to as "Chelsea Pensionsers" as their hospital was the similar to the Chelsea Hospital which served the same purpose. Kilmainham Hospital would have kept the papers regarding disabled soldiers, either wound or otherwise injured. Later some of the fortunate ones were well enough to be discharged from the hospital, from the military and received a pension. Presumingly a young Angus Livingstone in 1801 was discharged the military and left the hospital after being seriously wounded or injured while in military service with the Argyll Fencibles prior to 1801. While many of those in this hospital were born in Ireland, there were no doubt some who were not. There is probably a logical explanation why he at the Kilmainham Hospital in DUblin rather than the Chelsea Hospital.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

Your ancestor Angus Livingstone likely was in the hospital in Dublin circa 1801 or a little before because his highland Argyll Fencibles were apparently in Ireland in the late 1790's. I noticed a few references to this being the case. The Fencibles were utilized for home defence during the Napoleonic War period and the Scottish Fencibles were sent to Ireland and apparently garrisoned there during the french aided Irish Rebellion of 1798. Interestingly i noticed a reference to these Argyll Fencibles being disbanded sometime between 1799 and 1801. So one way or another we can see why Angus was out of the Army by the time of the birth of his first child as we suspected around 1805 back in Scotland.
regards,
Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Donald,

The link below has some info on Fencible regiments, & might explain why Angus was in Kilmainham Royal Hospital, Dublin, as you said, the Argyleshire Fencibles were in Ireland during the Irish rebellion which started 1798,

John

http://www.scribd.com/doc/68100606/The- ... s1793-1820

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,
There may be something more out there regarding the Arygll Fencible#s enlisted men from the 1795 to 1801 period and perhaps the Argyll and Bute historical society or the Inverary Castle archives might now what if any conscription or militia recruitment lists are available from that period.

At least you have found this valuable piece of information regarding your ancestors military career that you have been searching for. It was in itself an major breakthrough in your research. Knowing who he served with and general period he was hospitalized and became a pensioner we could venture a guess when he served was a big break.

regards,

Donald