James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

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Re: James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:57 pm

Hi Roberta,

Welcome back to the Forum. Nice to hear from you again.
So the James Livingston and Catherina Kuhn ancestry mystery continues. Are the closest matches at 67 markers tested? I think the next step should be to contact those two Livingstone gentleman you mentioned who are your Livingston relative's closest matches at a genetic distance of 3 which may suggest they all shared a Livingston ancestor in the 1700's or something like that if those matches are with 67 markers tested. I think it might be helpful to compare the Livington ancestral line generation by generation info these other two Livingtons have with that of your relative that is matching with them. You would then see if there is any evidence of there being a known common ancestor amongst them or if they have some more detailed Livingston ancestral info that your relative whom was tested does not have. 67-1 and 67-2 would be a closer Livingston ancestral connection but 67-3 also suggests your relatives Livingston ancestral branch and that of theirs did connect a few centuries back.
Anyways see what info they have on their Livingston ancestors and see if any of that is similar to your relatives.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2587
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

Postby Roberta Gilbert » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:51 am

I had Clifton upgrade from 37 to 111 markers. He has match at a distance of 3 with a David Shue whose earliest know Livingston ancestor was Chauncey Livingston who died April 3, 1822 in Pennsylvania, maybe born in Gettysburg. He sent me this:
"We have a fascinating quandary. My Livingston line is from Pennsylvania. I believe Chauncey Livingston was born possibly in Gettysburg, PA. From the
years we both have it looks like Chauncey and your James could have been brothers - but I'm only guessing. I have sketchy information that Chauncy's
wife was named Catharine Melaun. Here is a list of the direct line. I have nothing on the Livingston family in Pennsylvania (or any other state) before 1800. Chauncey Livingston (born? - 3 April 1822) - born possibly in Gettysburg, PA
Isaac Livingston (29 June 1819 - 1 Sep 1908)
George Livingston (16 Mar 1856 - 9 Jun 1930)
Stewart Livingston (8 Jun 1907 - 9 Jan 1973) - my Grandfather

At 67 markers, Clifton has a genetic distance of 5 from a descendant of John Livingston, b. c 1760-1770, VA; mar. 1791 VA; 6 from descendant of Matthew Livingston Oct 3 1855 Ireland to Jan 17, 1934 New Zealand; and 6 from descendant of a John Livingston, 1822 - 1891(no countries given).

At 37 markers we have the distance of 3 with 3 Glynn Barrie Livingstone (Robert Livingston birth 1796 Ireland death New Brunswick) and John Allan Livingston
(back to 1699 Culsalmond, Aberdeenshire).

On the The Livingston/MacLea Surname DNA Project Results, I noticed Clifton (among several others) is listed under "0 - A Test Sort". What does that mean?
Roberta Gilbert
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:05 pm

Re: James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:20 pm

Hi Roberta,
Happy New Year and welcome back to the Clan Maclea Livingstone Forum. I am very interested to learn of the latest results regarding Clifton.
I am thinking that the DNA testing may be actually solving your mystery regarding your Pennsylvania Livingston family origins. It looks to me like Clifton may be matching with Livingstons of Scotch-Irish ancestry that is to say Livingstons who of settled in the six counties of Ulster (present day Northern Ireland) in the 1600's. There seems to have a several lowland Presbyterian scotish Livingston families of lowland south western Scotland origin not all related who settled in Ulster Ireland in the 1600's. A number of the descendants of these Livingston families who state they are of Ireland origin are showing to in a few different familytreedn DNA match groups including apparently the one that Clifton is a match with. Some Palentine German refugees in the early 1700's may have settled in Ireland and could have later gone to Pennsylvania from ireland and subsequently adopted the english name Livingston. I don't know about a Dutch connection but you would have more info on that than I. I am thinking however that is not likely the case with these Livingston matches apparently of Ulster Ireland origin and before that of lowland Scotland origin apparently and that they are more likely of a "Scotch Irish" Livingston family with earlier roots before the 1600's in lowland Scotland. As these Ulster Livingstons were of family that originated in lowland Scotland then your brother is also likely a match with some lowland Livingstons in lowland Scotland who ancestors did not later settle either in nearby Ulster Ireland or America. The DNA project has revealed that there were a number of Livingstons residing in a number of Counties in lowland Scotland who were not related to the highland Macleas who adopted the name Livingston more recently in the 1600's or mid 1700's in Western Argyllshire.

Some of the Scotch Irish Livingston descendants later left Ulster and settled beginning in the early 1700's in Pennsylvania, Virginia and North Carolina. I suspect your Livingston ancestor based the results so far may actually have been Pennsylvania "Scotch-Irish" rather than of an ancestor of dutch or German who anglicized his name to Livingston after settling in America in the 18th century. If your Livingstons are rooted with Livngstons who settled in Pennsylvania in the 1700's there is a good possibility that they were actually descended from a lowland Livingston family that settled in Ulster Ireland in the early 1600's and in the 1700's settled in Pennsylvania which we know some Livingston families from Ulster Ireland did. The fact that two Livingstons with family info linking them to Ireland are close matches to Clifton I think might be a clue to that. In the future perhaps more Livingston matches may help you to confirm the possibility of Scotch Irish Pennsylvania origins rather than dutch or German of your Livingston ancestors.

Pennsylvania from what I understand has a number of Livingston families who seem to be connected to Livingston families of Scotch Irish ancestry but are not apparently all related to one another. There was quite a bit of settlement of Ulster Ireland Presbyterian families of Scottish ancestry in the 1700's in Pennsylvania, Virginia and North Carolina I understand.

None sure what is meant by "0 test sort".

regards,

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Historian
Clan Maclea Livingstone Society
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Re: James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:33 pm

Hi Roberta,

I decided to take a fresh start with the Livingstons that lived in York County Pennsylvania in the 1700's and 1800's. I have found two different Livingston families who referred to themselves as Livingston. The one group from the late 1700's that seems to be of Scottish or more likely Scotch-Irish ancestry and the other an obvious german family that noticeably from the census and other earlier records changed their from Liebenstein to the name Livingstone according to their York County, Pennsylvania records. Chancey Livingston of York County, Penn. connected to your cousin or brother's DNA match appears to me to be of a Scottish Scotch Irish family that lived in York County and not with the Leibenstein Livingstons who I am pretty certain back in 1810 were still referring to themselves by their original German name in the records. Also the Leibenstein later Livingstons were closely connected to the German community in York County and the Leibenstein Livngstons attended a Lutheran church probably with mostly families of German origins in the area. I found only in the 1810 Census record for some reason There seems to have been a Livingston family or families residing in York County that always referred to themselves as Livingston in the records and a German family Liebenstein connected to a Johannes George Leibenstein whose children in the 1800's changed their name to Livingston. Interestingly though you can in the early 1800's records that Johanne George Leibenstein is censused in York County with his German name so I assume he did not change his name but his children did. More of this German family included farther down this page.
York County, Pennsylvania created in 1749 from Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. From the 1720's there was significant Scotch-Irish settlement of this part of Lancaster County.
Early Livingstons in York County, Pennsylvania
Chauncey Livingston's son Isaac
Isaac Livingston b. Jun 29, 1819 not likely born in Gettyburg, Adams County, Pennsylvania. That is likely just speculation. More likely Chauncey's son Isaac was born in Washington Township, York County, Pennsylvania where Chauncey and his wife were living circa 1820 according to the 1820 U.S. Census.
Isaac died. Sept. 1, 1908 Conewango, York County, Pennsylvania

Father Chauncey Livingston mother Catherine Melaun
Family researchers are stating that Chauncey Livingston was born in York County, Pennsylvania in 1795 died 1882 York County, Pennsylvania? Descendants seem to have been unable to find his gravesite. Have not been able to verify the 1882 death date and have not been able to find this Pennsylvania Chauncey in any other census except the 1820 Census. Perhaps he is under a different spelling? Seems odd that I cant find him in other census records after 1820.
Chauncey Livingston is recorded in the 1820 Census a resident of Washington, York County, Pennsylvania with a wife and one child under the age of 10 which would be Isaac I assume.
There unfortunately appears to be no information on Chauncey's ancestor's origins that I could find. I have listed below the early Livingstons of York County as indicated in the early census records. Have not seen much info on these three unfortunately that could tell us more

The earliest Livingston settler to settle in York County, Pennsylvania may be this Andrew Livingston
Andrew Livingston b. 1715 County Armagh, Ireland d.1777 settled early 1700's in York County, Pennsylvania (then Lancaster County, PA.) Descendants settled elsewhere in Pennsylvania. married Prudence? THe Livingstons of York County listed in Group 1 are not known to be connected to Andrew Livingston family but they also may likely be of Scotch Irish Livingston ancestry as was Andrew Livingston. A great many Scotch Irish families settled in Pennsylvania in the early 1700's.

Livingstons of York County, Pennsylvania
1790 Census
Group 1 (Not certain they were related but spelt their name early on as Livingston) possibly of Scotch Irish ancestry
Thomas Livingston Fawn, York County, Pennsylvania 1790 U.S. Census 1 male over 16 7 females
John Livingston Fawn, York County, Pennsylvania 1790 U.S. Census 1 male above 16 2 males under 16 and 2 females
Thomas and John Livingston listed together and appear to be neighbours and possibly relatives

]1810 Census
James Livingston Hopewell, York County, Pennsylvania 1810 Census 2 household members

1820 Census
Chauncey Livingston Washington Township, York County, Pennsylvania 1820 Census 1 male 1 female 1 male under 10
The notion that these Livingstons could be Scotch Irish would fit with the trend with Clifton's DNA matches with Livingstons said to be of Scotch-Irish Ulster origin.

Group 2
This consists of one family who are clearly shown in their earliest records as being of German Lutheran origin and originally referred to themselves as Leibenstein, but much later in the 1800's adopted the lowland Scottish name Livingston. I first noticed this change in the 1870 Census for this family in York County, Pennsylvania. It seems unlikely that Chauncey Livingston is connected to the Leibenstein/Livingstons as he is appears as Chauncey Livingston as far back as the 1820 Census.
Johannes Georg Leibenstein (later in 1800's his son Isaac and family refers to themselves as Livingstones)
b. July 9, 1775 York County, Pennsylvania d. June 26, 1847 York County, Pennsylvania Buried East Berlin, Adams County, Penn. ?
wife: Hannah Wagoner b Feb. 25, 1797 d. Oct 1, 1892 Cemetery: Thomasville York County, PA Paradise Holtzschwamm Lutheran Cemetery
Note Johannes Georg Leinenstein is recorded as George Leibenstein in census records 1840 Census Geo Lebenstine Paradise, York County, Hannah Leibenstine Paradise, York County, PA 1850 Census Hannah Livingstone 1870 Census Paradise, York County, Pennsylvania
Note that in the 1870 Census for Paradise, York County PA, George Leibenstein's widow and her children are referring to themselves as Livingstones and not by their original german name as in earlier census, tax and church information. Not sure when this family stopped using the german name but the father and mother were using it apparently up to at least 1850 from what I can tell. In 1870 the widow Hannah Leibenstein is residing with her son Isaac and his family in York County and the entire family including Hannah are referring themselves not a Leibenstein but Livingstons. This however seems not to be the case with an earlier Livingston group which includes a Thomas Livingston in 1790 located at Fawn a James Livingston located at Hopewell and with Chauncey Livingston located at Washington Township in York County, PA in 1820 Census. I assume then there is good chance that the Fawn, Hopewell and Washington Township Livngstons might not be related to the German Leibensteins/Livingstons. Clearly the Paradise York County Leibenstein Livingstons are not Scottish or Scotch Irish. A Y chromosome test of a descendant of a descendant of the Leibenstein Livingstons of Paradise, York County would I think easily determine whether or not Chauncey was of German Leibenstein/Livingston ancestry or whether he was descended from a Scotch-Irish or scottish Livingston family as I am suspecting. In any event it looks to me like York County, Pennsylvania in the 1800's there is more than one family group which referred to itself as Livingston with a second group that was actually a Lutheran German family the Leibenstein family who only much later in the 1800's adopted the name Livingstone from what I can tell in the Pennsylvania records.

1870 Census Paradise York county, Pennsylvania
Isaac Livingstone age 28 Father Johannes Georg Leibenstein and Hannah Wagoner
Elizabeth Livingstone age 26
Geo P Livingstone age 5
Hannah C. Livingstone age 4
Emma S. Livingstone age 8/12
Hannah Livingstone age 72 formerly Hannah Leibenstein in 1850 Census (Mrs Johannes Georg Leibenstein)

Isaac Livingston son of Johannes George Liebenstein and Hannah Wagoner was born Feb. 18, 1841 Paradise, York County, PA and died Feb. 29, 1908 buried Paradise Holtzschwamm Lutheran Church Cemetery


regards,
Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2587
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:44 pm

Hi Roberta,

Regarding Livingston matches now and in the future if your ancestor James Livingston was Scotch-Irish there should be matches with Livingstons of Pennsylvania and Virginia ancestry as there seems to be. It is known Livingston is a name found amongst some families of Ulster Scotch Irish origin and that beginning around the 1720's in the 18th century there was very large influx of Scotch-Irish Ulster families settling in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania and in nearby Virginia, Georgia and the Carolina's. So consequently if Livingston matches occur with Livingstons of Pennsylvania and Virginia, Georgia and the Carolina's chances are very good the Livingston matches are of Scotch Irish ancestry likely. There may also be a livingston match with a livingston of lowland Scotland as the ancestors of the Scotch Irish originated in lowland Scotland primarily.

One Scotch Irish Livingston family of Georgia origin who are a match with another DNA group is not a match with these Livingstons you mentioned but that is because there appears to have been several Livingstons family groups that lived in the six counties of Ulster that were not related apparently in the 1600's and later, some of whom later in the 1700's settled in the United States and Canada. Interestingly enough my genealogy specialty in earlier years was Ulster family research before in 2004, I began to focus on highland Argyllshire Livingstone/Livingston research. My Mother is of an old lowland Scottish family that settled in Ulster in the early 1600's and the rest of her family line is largely Scotch Irish, so hence my early interest in my Scotch Irish roots. It is my Father who has the highland Livingston ancestry along with a bit of Scotch Irish, German, Dutch, Swedish and some interesting Colonial American New England ancestry. My Swedish ancestor oddly enough was part of a failed attempt by the Swedes in what is today modern day Delaware, to establish Swedish colony in North America in the 1600's. So my family research has covered a number of families of a variety of ethnic backgrounds and all with interesting family histories. Oddly enough my Mother also had a Livingston ancestor hers of New York State ancestry, a William Livingston or Levingson born abt. 1785 or 1786 there that is of Lowland Livingston origin. Not certain whether or not he is descended from Robert Livingston of Livington Manor or some other New York State Livingston family origin. So I have a lowland Livingston ancestor on my Mom's side of the family and a Argyllshire Highland maclea livingstone on my fathers side of the family. Hence my interest in both highland and lowland Livingstons.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2587
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

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