James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

[Roberta Gilbert]

Deb,
I haven't heard from Anne for awhile. She is descended from Jacob & Sarah's daughter, Sarah, and I'm down from their son James.

[Roberta Gilbert]

The problem with James being Dutch or German is that my autosomal DNA results (and my mother's sister whose Orcadian % was 89.76, and MidEast 10.24) show no German at all. My results are:
(Continent) Western European (Population) Orcadian (Percentage) 94.28%
(Continent) Middle East Population (Population) Palestinian, Adygei, Bedouin, Bedouin South, Druze, Iranian, Jewish, Mozabite (Percentage) 5.72%

[fiskd1]

I am now willing to agree with you both that it is more likely that James Livingston was a Scot than a German. With the information you've both provided, I can believe it. First, assuming James did not Americanize his name, it is a name found more in the British Isles than in Germany, where it would more likely be Jakob. Besides the fact that he lived in the German settlements in New York, I've also been stuck on the question of language... how a Scot would get along in a probably primarily German speaking community? Not to mention cultural differences. And why he would settle with them in the first place? So I did some more research on the web for Scottish/Dutch connections. And I found at least 1 source (BBC) that explains the ties between Scotland and the Netherlands in the 17th century and earlier. Seems they integrated very well in Rotterdam. I also saw somewhere that by this time, the Dutch language was being influenced more by English than anything else. I don't know if that's true, but it is not a great leap to say that the Palatines who survived the trip to the colonies had some command of English. Especially considering they spent some time outside the walls of London and some spent time in Ireland before being shipped to the colonies. And... it's seems reasonable to think that James, bouncing between Scotland and South Holland would have exposure to Baltic languages and Dutch/Germanic cultures.

This is interesting reading, I thought. Maybe this will give us some new ideas for research.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/scottishhi ... ries.shtml
If I find anything else, I will be happy to share if anyone is interested.

On rootsweb, I also saw a mention of a Scottish migration and that it followed basically the same pattern as the Palatine migration at around the same time. Not sure about the validity of this information either and I have no specific dates. But they went through the same war ravages, harsh winters and famine as the Palatines in the same time frame. It would make sense that James decided to skedaddle. Since he was born in the Netherlands, it's possible he knew that the colonies were offering land and a new start to the Palatines and since he may have already been on the continent...

One thing for sure... this Livingston "clan" moved around a lot! For whatever reasons. They didn't stop when they got here.

I have not found anything much to support this Livingston line being of German descent. Even though I was almost convinced it was. I guess I had to look at it from a different perspective.
Comments are welcome!!

Best Regards,
Deb

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Debra,

The name of the book I have is "Early Eighteenth Century Palantine Emigration" by Walter Allen Knittle. It was originally published in 1937 and over the years has been reprinted by the Genealogical Publishing Company. It includes a comprehensive history of the Palentines and their settlement in America. Most importantly for those researching their Palentine New York State ancestry is a appendix with about 12000 names of Palentines who came to AMerica in the 1700's. Regretably it does not include however Liebenstein or Livingston. Several Kuhns are included in a 1710-1712 Subsistence list for Palentines at New York City or Hudson River area settlements.

regards,

Donald

[JanetS]

I went back to the huge YDNA database which is kept on this website, and there is a John Livingston b. 1603 (I think) in Edinburgh, Scotland, who died 8 August 1672 Rotterdam, Holland. Perhaps he had a son James. In the database, his descendent's YDNA is in the Clermont group. That will mean something to Kyle. I'm not saying this is a sure thing, just showing that there's an example of a Scots Livingston who went to Holland in the late 1600s. The Palatines went to England in 1709 and one large group to New York and up the Hudson River in 1710.

I'm descended from the Palatine immigrant, Adam Staring whose grandsons went from the German settlements in New York to Virginia where they became the Starnes family on the New River and later the Clinch River. In Germany, the Starings lived in Wonsheim and Mannheim in the Palatinate. I'm also descended from the Liebensteins of Duhren, Baden. They did not immigrate with the Palatines, but different members immigrated between 1728 and 1755 and came to York Co area mostly. They changed their name or it was changed for them to Leviston or Levingston and eventually Livingston about the time of the Revolution.

Janet S.

[JanetS]

Meant to say, I know the Starings are in the Knittle book.
Janet

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Janet.

As far as I know there was only the son Robert Livingston who established himself in the late 1600's in Colonial New York. Two or three individuals with information that they are descended from this Robert Livingston and one of his descendants have participated in the dna project and have been tested as apparently have one or two descendants of James Livingston and Catharine Kuhn of Kinderhook, NY. Kyle as you say may be able to give you better insight as to the results of those tests and whether or not dna showed any possible family connection.

regards,

Donald

[Kyle MacLea]

If someone reminds me by PM or email to check the DNA results, I am happy to do so, just absent-minded with my school responsibilities right now.

As for Janet's message about the match to the Clermont group and that one was present in Holland, that is very interesting! I definitely think we should test as many of these "possible German" Livingstons as possible when a group hasn't yet been tested.

With well over 200 men in the DNA project at this point, I can't keep track of them all. But if someone knows of who was tested as descendants of Livingston and Kuhn, I am happy to follow up.

Kyle=

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi All,

I quite agree there is not much proof out there that James Livingston who married Catharine Kuhn was German and no doubt it would be unusual find a German settler going by the name James. Some Germans in America definitely went by the name Livingston one way or another, so who knows. In addition to Pennsylvania and possibly New York, we also have a third possible German Livingston family that settled in Georgia in the 1700's. I am also pretty certain that the family of Barnabus Livingston of Georgia who resided there in the 1700's was also of German origin. Another Livingston family that settled in Georgia in the 18th century turned out to be of Scotch Irish origin from Ulster interestingly enough.

Whoever James Livingston of Kinderhook was I dont think he was the brother of Robert Livingston (1654-1728) who was James Livingston who was born abt. 1646 and died abt. 1700. James as far I can tell did not come to America, though interestingly his son Robert referred by some as Robert the Nephew apparently did join his Uncle Robert in the then British Colony of New York. The Kuhns I think arrived in the New York Colony in the early 1700's long after the brother James had died in the Netherlands or Scotland or where ever he was residing at the time of his death. This doesnt seem to me to be the James Livingston that married Catharine Kuhn. Having said that I am not ruling out the possibility that Catharine married a Scot. I really dont know one way or another.

regards,

Donald

[LindaLily]

If someone reminds me by PM or email to check the DNA results, I am happy to do so, just absent-minded with my school responsibilities right now.
With well over 200 men in the DNA project at this point, I can't keep track of them all. But if someone knows of who was tested as descendants of Livingston and Kuhn, I am happy to follow up.

Kyle=

Hi,
I have traced our Livingston line to James Livingston & Catharine Kuhn. I asked my mother's cousin who is a Livingston from this line to do the yDNA test. His results are matching mostly the surnames of Green & Johnson, so perhaps we have a non paternal event happening in this line. My question: How can I connect with those people in your DNA study that are descended from James & Catharina to do a comparison?
Thanks,
Linda