James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

[Roberta Gilbert]

The DNA results are in--John Scott Livingston's haplogroup is R-M173. The mystery remains, as he is in the ungrouped. Answers one question it seems--not from John of Ancrum. Rules out a James L-Maria Roos connection too I suppose. Wish I could find more descendants of James & Catherina.

Also can rule out German, I think-he matches Niall Of The Nine Hostages profile

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Roberta,

Was the 67 maker test done through familytreedna? Did you notice the family names of your closest matches and how close a match they are to your family DNA test participant? Might be a clue there as to where your more distant ancestor originated.

I did not expect that a descendant of James Livingston who married Catharine Kuhn would be related to John Livingston of Ancrum's Robert Livingston of Livingston Manor. I don't think James was his son or a relative of the Livingston land lord of the Palentines, Robert Livingston son of John Livingston of Ancrum, Scotland. Robert Livingston was not well liked by his Palentine german tenants and he had a low opinion of them, so I don't think that this James Livingstone changed his german name to Livingston as has been suggested also in the past. I think from what you are saying that the results seem the suggest your Livingston ancestor was more likely Scottish or Scotch Irish than German and I think that may well be the case.

While there is no compelling evidence to suggest that James was related to the Robert Livingston the landlord of the Palentine Germans in New York Colony and son of John Livingston of Ancrum Scotland, James Livingstone married to Catharine Kuhn was quite possibly scottish and not a German Palentine.

I know that some Livingstons in the 18th century were thought to have changed german names from Liebestein to Livingstone in New York or Pennsylvania, and that may be the case, but I think it quite likely that the descendants of this Jame Livingston may just as likely when tested not show any evidence of a German ethnic origin but likely Scottish or Scotch Irish Livingston family origins if anything. I can't say for certain but your husband or brother's test results could indicate your Livingston ancestor whether he be James Livington who married Catharine Kuhn or not was a Livingston not of German but of Scottish or Scotch-Irish origins. Make a note of the family names of the closest matches to the 67 marker test and if there are any Scottish or Irish names associated with your closest matches in the matches page of the DNA results.

Generally speaking people with 18th century Livingston ancestry in New York State can assume that their ancestors were connected to Robert Livingston family or another scottish Livingston family of lowland or highland origin. Also there were a number of Livingston families from Northern Ireland (Scotch Irish) that ended up in Pennsylvania and probably New York during the 1700's.
So far I don't think there is any proof that James Livingston that married Catharine Kuhn was German and am I now more inclined to think he might well have been Scottish, though I am not convinced he was related to old landlord of Livingston Manor Robert Livingston. Someone with genealogical DNA expertise might have better insight into the test results you mentioned, but as mentioned there might be some clues as to your Livingston family origins by studying the family names of the closest matches. I am only familiar with some of the Livingston testing done with familytreedna over the years but not an expert by any means.

regards,

Donald

[Roberta Gilbert]

Thanks, Donald.

We did the test through Family Tree DNA. The testee was a newly found distant cousin-a descendant of Jacob Livingston, youngest son of James & Catherina (Jacob was brother to my 4th gr grandfather). Scot's haplogroup-R M173-also shows descent from  Niall Of The Nine Hostages, so there is an Irish connection apparently. We match another descendant of Jacob's. There were Scottish & Irish on the matches.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Roberta,

Jacob is certainly a common enough German name but Jacob had German ancestry through his mother Catharine and apparently Scottish or Scotch Irish through his father James, so no surprise he would have a German name. Any Scottish names that stand out in among the children of James and Catharine. I have in the past been in contact some years back with some folks who we're researching a family connection with James Livingston and Catharine Kuhn and had some family history info but it has been awhile now. I have that Genealogical Press publication on Palentine Emigration with a good history and some extensive family trees around the house somewhere but don't remember if had Catharine's father listed in it. In any event there are on line family research sources I have seen in the past I recall which have the genealogy of the Kuhn family and James Livingston an Catharine Kuhn which you are now doubt already familiar with. I bought that book in the believe, year ago I as of Palentine German ancestry and highland Scottish ancestry on my father side. Later I found that my ancestry on my father's side is Swabian (Wuerttemburg, German) from a village a few miles from present day Stuttgart in Southern Germany.

[Roberta Gilbert]

James and Catherina's children were named: Elizabeth, Sara, James, William, Maria, Samuel and Jacob (mine & Scot's ancestor). I was in error: Scot's match, Robert, was a descendant of John Livingston (b. 1768), who was brother to my ancestor James (b 1771), both descending from Jacob, Jr (b. 1746) and Sarah House. Jacob Jr & Sarah had 8 children: John J, James, Catherine, Sara, Jacob, Samuel, Peter, Maritje, and Willem. A couple German names there .

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Roberta,

Interesting that one of the daughters has an old dutch spelling to her name, though perhaps not surprising given that Colonial New York at that time had not so long before been a Dutch colony and no doubt the Livingstons had some Dutch neighbours. I have some old colonial Dutch New York ancestry on my father's side of the family and recognize some of the dutch name variations that I have seen in the old Dutch Reform church records. Dutch Reform Church in colonial New Amsterdam and later New York as I understand it was the Dutch equivalent of the Presbyterian Church. I think that is one dutch spelling of Margaret. I wonder if they attended a Lutheran church or a Dutch Reform church in New York Colony. In any event interesting spelling but probably not too significant to your research. Yes I guess nothing in those names that shouts out to us that James could be Scottish. No evidence of a Scottish naming system being used by James and Catharine or scottish names so no possible clues there. If anything the names are more evident of a German influence and given that Catharine was German as were neighbours not so surprising. My great-great-great-great-great grandfather's name was Jacob and his son Johannes Georg. Just about every German family I have researched had a Jacob in it. But that still does not prove that James was not of Scottish ancestry. He was married to a German woman and lived I presume at Kinderhook in a predominately German and Dutch community, where english was probably for the most part a second language at least in the early 1700's.

I am interested in New York State Livingtons for another reason and that is that oddly enough I am related to Morvern Parish and Mull, Argyllshire, Scotland Livingstons on my father's side of the family and a New York State Livington family on my Mother's side of the family. Although my mom was directly of Scottish ancestry through her father she was related to a family of Livingstons who lived apparently in the Albany County or Columbia County area of New York State on her Mother's side of her family. These Livingstons came up to Canada in the 1830's and I have not really not done much research on them before the 1830's.So I have no idea if they have any connection to the Robert Livingston family or the Kinderhook Livingstons you have been researching or some other Livingston family who settled in the Albany County/Columbia/Dutchess County area before 1800 not known to me. So many other families more closely related to me have occupied my time that there is always one you miss researching I guess.

I know through our Maclea Livingstone Society DNA project that some years ago there were a few people who were linked to old Robert Livingston tested but apparently you are not a match with them. Some years ago now I had a third cousin who was a Livingston tested but that was on my father's side of the family that had a history of being highland Livingstones from Western Argyllshire. I don't know any Livingstons the New York State family from my Mom's side of the family, so I don't know if anyone currently having done a test with familytreedna is a match or not to that Livingston family line on my mom's side of the family. Probably the first step in any event is to begin researching that other Livingston family from New York State I am related to but there is just so many other genealogy related projects on the go on the moment that I may put that one on hold for awhile.

It would be nice to see an organized effort to get more New York State Livingstons in the Maclea Livingstone DNA project to get a better sense of what 18th century family group they connect with. Presumingly the more in the project, the more chances of matches occurring in the future. Not all genealogists are interested however in taking that step and doing a DNA test. I do however sense that more and more people are participating in genealogical DNA testing than ever before.

regards,

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Historian
Clan Maclea Livingstone Society

[LindaLily]

Hi Roberta & Donald,
I have been reading your posts with interest. As you probably know, my line is also supposed to descend from James Livingston & Catherina Kuhn through their son Samuel. I have the same names for their children as listed by Roberta but have seen their daughter Sara listed as Saartjie and their daughter Maria as Marytje. So more of the Dutch influence? Also, most of James & Catherina's children married spouses with German or Dutch names: Dekker, Dykeman, House, Jager, Lesscher & Viele. Many times in the census and other records, my family name has been spelled as Levingston. Anyway, I had my mother's cousin Larry Livingston test but his results do not seem to be matching any Livingstons and his haplogroup is I-M253. So my Livingston line is not matching Roberta's Livingston line. This of course could also mean that one of our lines has had a "non-paternal" event happening. I suspect this may be the case in my line with my gGrandfather but still need more proof. After years of searching for my Livingstons, it makes me sad to think I may not actually connect to this family. Anyway, can either of you direct me to the correct place to find the DNA results? I went to the main page for the Clan Web and found some results but cannot seem to find my cousin Larry listed and I'm sure his results were there before?
Thanks,
Linda

[Roberta Gilbert]

I take solace in that at least the DNA shows a Celtic connection, with the Irish King & Warlord Niall of the Nine Hostages unique DNA signature (a signature found in only .6 of one percent of the entire family Tree DNA database). International DNA databases show that this unique chromosome was found in roughly 1 in 10 men in Scotland, and in about 2% of European-American New Yorkers (or another site said 16.7% of men in western and central Scotland and has turned up in multiple North American population samples, including 2% of European-American New Yorkers). From http://www.isogg.org/wiki/NW_Irish, I found: This diagnostic marker is associated with many individuals whose roots lie in the counties of Northwest Ireland, Ulster and Lowland Scotland.


I wish I could find other descendants from my ancestor, James (b 1771) and his other brothers. With only one testee, there's no way to know if there was a NPE. So touggh with family scattered and out of touch.


And then there are the other folks in "ungrouped" who are in the same boat. Where do we all belong?

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Linda,
I will see if there is anything I can do to help.
The list accessible through the main web page has a number of various Livingstones/Livingstons and others tested a few years ago. If Larry's results are there, it would be listed under his kit or test number. Not everyone included in that list had there test done through familytreedna but for most they are identified by their kit number or some sort of test number. Some of the more recent Livingston test results are not included on that list.

Was Larry tested through familytreedna and do you remember his kit or test number?

I can check with Andrew Lancaster our genealogy DNA expert who created that DNA result page I think you were probably looking at a while ago. Do you have or can you find out Larry's test number. Andrew's list on his web page I assume you accessed, identified Livingstons by their kit or test number, not by name. His results would not have been removed if they were there. If Larry's test was done several years chances are his results are there unless they are relatively recent. I don't think that list has been updated recently to my knowledge with some of the newer DNA participants. Depends on how long ago he was tested I guess. But if you think you saw his results you may well have. Anyways if you have the kit or test number for Larry I think we quickly enough determine if Larry's results are included on that old Maclea Livingstone-Lancaster-Boggs DNA results site that you can access through the Clan Maclea Livingstone Society webpage.

I am the Clan historian of the Clan Maclea Livingstone Society but have an interest in Maclea Livingstone DNA project and have myself a Livingston cousin participating in the project and I am sponsoring a couple other Livingston tests as well, but my knowledge regarding the science of the results is very limited. I have however taken a great interest in the results and when possible try to explain some of the matches where possible with a study of the genealogy of some of the participants. In some cases I think that has been helpful.

regards,

Donald

[Kyle MacLea]

I may be able to help some. For example, with grouping.

Problem is many of the results don't group in any obvious way together so we throw them into large haplogroup or miscellaneous pools. I will see about getting these guys at least grouped to that level.

Basic results from FTDNA can be seen here:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/li ... ycolorized

Kyle