James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Roberta,

So judging from Tracy's information the family was still in Courtland County, NY in the early 1830's. I wonder if they are in NY or Ilinois by the time of the 1840 U.S. Census.

We have had at least one Livingston tested whom believes they are descended from James livingston and Catharine Kuhn. I am not certain of how markers or the details.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Roberta,

I notice your info states that James Livingston Senior and his wife Susannah Jackson are buried in Courtland County, NY in the cemetery you mentioned. I wonder if their cemetery stones still exist in the cemetery in Courtland County and if someone has transcribed the cemetery stone info from that cemetery in Courtland County?
Looks like you have made much progress in your research of your ancestors.

regards,

Donald

[fiskd1]

Greetings Roberta!

I am also working on my NY Livingston line which appears to go back to the same James Livingston being discussed in this post. Unlike you, I do not have any solid family stories to substantiate any research that I have completed. My grandmother didn’t like to talk about past family topics. However, I do have enough labeled photographs from her that confirm source documents that I have located at least from the later part of the 19th century. But like you, I am stuck at James and Catharina Kuhn. Some trees on Ancestry point to James Livingston b. abt 1674 Scotland & Maria Roos b. abt 1675 Netherlands as James’ parents. But aside from some random birth records, I have not found anything to prove this one. And I do not have any male Livingstons to DNA test. Has anyone turned up that you know of?
I do believe that this line is very Dutch and German. As you will see from my line, the Dutch connection continues through a few generations.

Here it is:
JAMES 1 LIVINGSTON wasbornin1699inZuidHolland,Netherlands.Hediedafter1750in Kinderhook,Columbia,NewYork,UnitedStates.He married Catharina Kuhn,daughter of Samuel Kuhn and Catharina on 09 Jul 1728 in Kinderhook,Columbia,NewYork,UnitedStates.She was born on 19 Aug 1703 in Langenselbold, Hessen-Nassau,Prussia.Shediedbetween1744-1794in Kinderhook,Columbia,NewYork,UnitedStates.

WILLIAM LIVINGSTON wasborn in 1738 in Columbia County,NewYork.He died on 24 Dec 1798 in Delaware County,New York.He married ELIZABETH DYCKMAN. She was bornin1754inColumbiaCounty,NewYork.Shediedin1851inSchoharie County, New York.

Elizabeth Dyckmans grandfather was Johannes Dyckman. I recently found a book about the French and Indian Massacre of 1690-Schenectady. It states that the Dyckman family, along with other survivors, walked the 10 miles to Albany in deep snow and Robert Livingston (Livingston Manor fame) put them up, gave them supplies and then granted the Dyckmans a tract of manor land, and possibly 1 black slave. Long ago I separated these 2 Livingston lines, but that is such a coincidence that Elizabeth ends up marrying a Livingston. No wonder it is so confusing!

CORNELIUS 3 LIVINGSTON was born on 28 Dec 1778 in New York. He died on 25 Dec 1853 in Otego, Otsego County, New York. He married Elizabeth Simmons in1801 in Schoharie County, New York. She was born in 1783 in,,New York, USA. She died on 09 Mar 1861 in Otego, Otsego, New York, USA

WILLIAM C 4 LIVINGSTON(Cornelius 3 ,William 2 ,James 1 )was born in Aug1806 in New York, United States. He died date Unknown in New York. He married POLLY SWART .She was born in1806 in New York, United States. She died before1880 in New York, United States..
HENRY B . 5 LIVINGSTON (William C 4 ,Cornelius 3 ,William 2 ,James 1 )was born in Dec1834 in New York, USA. He died date Unknown in Possibly Afton, NY. He married SAPHRONIA ROSE .She was born on 11 Nov 1840 in Gilboa, Schoharie County, New York. She died on 21Mar1918 in Davenport, Delaware County, NY.

It is interesting to note here that Roos is Dutch for Rose. Is it a really out of line to think that Saphronia’s family Americanized their name when they got to the states? It is open to speculation since my line stayed close to the Germantown area and I cannot get back further than Saphronia parents.

ARCHIE HENRY 6 LIVINGSTON (HenryB. 5 ,WilliamC 4 ,Cornelius 3 ,William 2 ,James 1 )was born on 06 Mar 1874 in New York, USA. He died on 17 Apr 1966 in New York, Chenango County, Goshen. He married(1)LILLIE S . JONES ,daughter of Lemuel P.Jones and Delila Wrench between 1880-1900. She was born on 22 Dec 1872 in Susquehanna, Pennsylvania. She died on 06 Jun 1967 in Goshen, Orange County, New York.

LAURA BERNICE LIVINGSTON (ArchieHenry 6 ,HenryB. 5 ,WilliamC 4 ,Cornelius 3 ,William 2 ,James 1 ) was born on 24 Jun 1898 in Afton, Chenango County, NY. She died on 12 Dec 1993 in Lakeside BeickirckNursingHome,Brockport,NY. She married(1) THOMAS IRVING PRYOR, son of Irving James Pryor and Minnie Augusta Bailey about 1925. He was born on 20 May 1898 in La Grange,Dutchess,NY. He died on 13 Jan 1998 in Bonita Springs,Lee,FL.

BETTY JEAN PRYOR b. 7 Dec 1926 in Brockport, NY. She died 4 Jan 2010. She married Farrel R. Fisk, son of Merton Orlin Fisk and Elsie Pearl White. He was born 6 Feb 1926 in Bergen, NY and died 3 Jan 1999.

Then Me: Deborah Fisk, 1959, Rochester, NY

I’m sorry about the spacing in places. My report generator saves some typing, but does not copy and paste well.

Anyway… I would be grateful for any updates or additional reading you may have found since your post of last year that relate to James and Catharina. Thanks so much!
Deb

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Debra,

The Palentine Germans were displaced refugees that found a new home in a number of countries and were brought to the then Province of New York by the sympathetic English. We know that the Kuhns were of this Palentine community that settled in the Province of New York. It is not clear whether or not James was a Palentine German or not. He lived amongst a german community and married a German but there is also a possibility he was Dutch or Scottish. I dont know that there is any absolute proof. Y Chromosome DNA testing of a proven direct male descendant may help to sort out whether or not the family was German or Scottish. Identifying with DNA testing whether the family was German or Dutch could be a little more difficult. I think there is an assumption that James Livingston of Kinderhook was German in part because he married a Palentine German and lived in a largely German community and the belief held by some that a german family that changed their name to Livingston settled in the Kinderhook area.

regards,

Donald

[fiskd1]

Hi Donald,

Thank you for your reply. Although I have seen references to Palatine Germans, I somehow missed the historical reference and what it was. And so I spent some time this morning getting at least a surface education on the topic. I thank you for bringing that to light!

I would agree now that the Kuhn's seem to be of a Palatine settlement. And from my reading, I see the connection with Robert Livingston too. Seems he backed the English in bringing some of the "poor Palatines" to New York. And much like the Schenectady incident I've mentioned, this was probably a profitable tenant farming opportunity for the Manor.

What I would like to know is where the name Liebenstein comes from. Do you know the source of that name? I have found a few reconstructed passenger lists on line, but do not see that name anywhere (yet). But then I am not finding any Kuhns either.

Best Regards,
Deb

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Debra,

I used to have a book with a list of Palentine Germans that settled in New York, but I am not sure where it now. There were both New York and Pennsyvania Livingston families thought to be of German extraction who went by the name of Livingston. One of these families was thought to have been previously known as Liebenstein or something that. I got the impression that the Palentines were not too happy with Robert Livingston and he apparently had little love for them, so some of them left for Pennsylvania.
regards,
Donald

[Roberta Gilbert]

Deb,
I have a James Livingston, b 1674 who married a Maria Roos (b 1675) about 1702 in the Netherlands as possible parents to our James. Maria died in Rotterdam, Zuid Holland, Netherlands. His father, William married Ann Veitch 1633 in Rotterdam, Zuid Holland, Netherlands.

[fiskd1]

Hi Roberta,

Glad to hear from you!
I also saw this connection on Ancestry in a few trees. That is what got me back into researching our Livingstons again. Do you know if there are any source records or books to support this? Not that I don't believe it. I just want to be sure as is reasonably possible.

At one time years ago, I was in contact with Anne Townsend who helped me with some of my connections. I saw her name somewhere in this thread. Are you still in contact with her? Just wondering if she has made further progress too.

Best Regards,
Deb

[JanetS]

It would be difficult to tie James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn to the German Liebenstein family without a YDNA test of a male descendent. There are at least five families of Liebensteins (sometimes spelled Libenstein, Lowesteyn, Lowenstein) who came from Duhren, Baden, Germany, during the 18th century. None of them have the Christian name of James. These immigrants are known to have come through Philadelphia and there are 7 additional immigrants through Philadelphia whose names are similar to Liebenstein between 1727 and 1792. Of course there are many Scots Livingstons in Pennsylvania and I have heard through a distant cousin the suggestion that some of our family members from Adams or Cumberland Counties, PA, went north to New York and were associated with Robert Livingston, but I'd have to have some YDNA evidence before I would confirm this. If it works, I'll upload a document which I prepared from Filby's Index titled "18th Century L* immigrants from Germany." L* is the abbreviation my cousins and I use, because any of the many spellings is hard to type.

[Roberta Gilbert]

Deb,
Jacob (my 5th gr grandfather, son of James and Anna Catharina Kuhn) died in Schoharie, Schoharie, New York sometime after 1830. He and his wife Sarah House, are supposedly buried there. They also lived in Poughkeepsie, Dutchess, New York, Churchtown, Columbia County, NY, Gallantin, Columbia Co. New York, Linlithgo CO, West Copake, Col., N.Y.Columbia, New York, Albany, NY and Wynantskill, Rensselaer, N.Y. (based on where their kids were born).