James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

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Re: James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

Postby Roberta Gilbert » Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:21 pm

Kyle,

I can't find my cousin's results in the public list (the link you posted). His kit # is 499765. He's R-M173, Niall of the 9 Hostages. One of the FTDNA matches contacted me, another descendant of James & Catherina's son Jacob Livingston (b. 1746) & Sarah House. John Scott Livingston (my testee) is descended from Jacob's son John (b. 1768)
Roberta Gilbert
 
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Re: James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:38 am

Hi Roberta, Linda and Kyle,
It has been a while since there has been a participant said to be a descendant of James Livingston of Kinderhook,Ny and Catharine Kuhn in the DNA project. May I say great news you bring us Roberta. You may notice from past forum message of almost 10 years ago there were some earlier discussions here regarding James Livingston and Catharine Kuhn and the mystery surrounding the origins of James Livingston. For the benefit of others who might be reading this James Livingston married Catharine Kuhn a Palentine German in the early 1700's and they resided at Kinderhook, NY. Catharine was a daughter of a Palentine German settler whose was a tenant of Robert Livingston who in the late 1600's became landlord of Livingston Manor. Robert was the son of Rev. John Livingston of Ancrum, Scotland. Unfortunately nothing is known regarding the ethnic origins of Catharine Kuhn's husband James Livingston. It was thought that perhaps he was himself a german settler who changed his name to Livingston or that he was a Livingston relative of the landlord himself who married a Palentine. Another thought reinforced perhaps by some of the DNA results is that James Livingston was actually connected to another scottish or Scotch Irish Livingston family that settled also settled in the area in the early 1700's.

It is not certain what the truth of the matter is but it is interesting that seems to be with the latest results of John Scott Livingston further results possibly suggesting scottish or Scotch Irish origins for James Livingston. Perhaps to early to be 100 per cent certain but it does at the very least suggest the possibility that James Livingston that married Catharine Kuhn and resided in the early 1700's at Kinderhook was not German as many of us probably thought a few years ago here at the forum. Andrews earlier information certainly indicates Scotch-Irish as well if I understand correctly for some of those who early on who were tested and had history linking them to this James Livingston and Catharine Kuhn.

I was thinking of the Boggs, Lancaster Maclea Livingstone DNA Project website which can be accessed through The Clan Maclea Livingstone website. There 109136 and 27752 who are said to descend from James Livingston and Catharine Kuhn of Kinderhook, NY are described as a being a close match to each other according to Andrew's information. Both of these were likely tested several years ago. Their marker results are also displayed on that web page so you can see how there marker match was. Significantly, Andrew makes mention of the fact that their DNA signature seems more in line with those of North West Ireland origin. No indication apparently in the test results of 10936 and 27752 that suggest these Livingstons are of German ancestry.


More recently, Roberta you have pointed out that your relativeJohn Scott Livingston (499765) descended from Jacob Livingston a son of James Livingston and Catharine Kuhn turned out be R-M173 a Scott Haplotype group and the matches are suggesting connections with other families apparently of Scottish and Irish origins. Glad to hear you are a match with another Livingston. Linda on the other hand mentions that Larry Livingston a descendant of Samuel Livingston another son of James Livingston and Catharine Kuhn, her relative has a haplotype of M253. Kyle would know better than me on this one but I noticed that M253 is thought be characteristic of families with a specific type of nordic ancestry. So no match with John Scott Livingston and Larry Livingston, but John Scott Livingston matches another descendant of Jacob who has been tested.

At this point I am leaning towards the notion that James Livingston who married Catharine Kuhn could very well be of Scotch-Irish origin or Scottish origin and not German at all, and not a relation to Robert Livingston the landlord of the Kuhn family in colonial New York and the tests so far of those believed be connected to James seem to be of Scottish or Scotch-Irish ancestry perhaps except for Larry with the M253 Haplotype. Hopefully in time there will be Livingston matches with Larry Livingston's results.

Looking at settlers in the early 18th century in both New York and Neighbouring Pennsylvania the first thing that comes to mind during that time period is Palentine German settlers and Scotch Irish settlers who came in great numbers from Ulster in the Northern counties of Ireland. There was also settlement of Scotch Irish in the 1700's in North Carolina and elsewhere in the south. Lowland presbyterian Livingston families established themselves beginning in the early 1600's in the North of Ireland (Ulster) with other lowland families and in the 1700's the descendants of some of these Scotch-Irish families were attracted to the notion of settling in Pennsylvania and New York colony. I notice in the list of DNA results a number of Livingstons with a variety of test results but with family genealogy apparently linking them to a Livingston families from the north of Ireland that settled in Colonial America in the 1700's. The number and variety of DNA test results of Livingstons with family history linking them to Ulster in the North of Ireland is one thing I am finding quite surprising and interesting.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Re: James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:48 pm

Hi Roberta,

I passed on the recent news regarding John Scott Livingston's match to Andrew Lancaster our DNA coordinator. Can you find out the name of the Livingston match so I can pass that on information on to Andrew. The matches listed on the familytreeddna match page on the familytreedna site don't list them by their kit or test numbers but by their names, so he probably his closest match by name.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Re: James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

Postby Roberta Gilbert » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:25 pm

Donald,
The match was with Robert Livingston. Descended from James & Catharina's son, Jacob, & Sarah House.

Thanks
Roberta Gilbert
 
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Re: James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

Postby Roberta Gilbert » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:53 pm

I have a vague memory of my mother saying something about a family story that when our Livingston ancestor came to the States, he settled in New York and his brother went to Canada. But the "family" history also said we came from the David Livingstone line, that he was a distant uncle. So, don't know how much credence to give the brothers story,
Roberta Gilbert
 
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Re: James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:28 pm

Hi Roberta,

Old family accounts passed on by word of mouth or in the form of old written notes or letters by an older family member or relative often provide vital and sometimes very rare, valuable family history information that otherwise might be lost or forgotten. On the other hand I have in my years of doing family research also found that some family history information and old family folklore is not always accurate, people get confused with details or forget details, and the information sometime conflicts with alternative more reliable documented evidence when later discovered.

In my experience as a family historian , as Historian with the Clan Maclea Livingstone Society and in contact with Livingstons visiting the forum, almost every Livingston/Livingstone family, including the one I am related to, has a old family story linking them to the family of Dr. Livingstone. The earliest surviving records of Dr. Livingstone's grandparents, links them to Lettermore, Mull in the 1770's, then nearby Island of Ulva where Dr. Livingstone's father Neil Jr. was born in 1788, and after 1792 when Dr. Livingstone's grandfather Neil Livingston and family left the Isle of Ulva for Blantyre, in lowland Lanarkshire. Before Lettermore,Mull where Dr. Livingstone's grandparents Neil Livingston and Mary Morrison were married in 1774 there are is basically just a little bit of folklore regarding the families earlier origins which unfortunately can't be proven. Dr Livingstone himself offered little in the way of information in his books and numerous letters regarding his families early history in the 1700's or before except that he had understood that his grandfather's father, who he does not identify by name, had been a Jacobite soldier at the Battle of Culloden.

Dr. Livingstone has descendants to be sure, but no "Livingstone" male descendant living today or direct descendant with the last name "Livingstone" as "Livingstone" descendants could be tested with the Y chromosome DNA test like the one done by familytreedna, however several years a great-grandson of Dr. Livingstone's brother John tested via familytreedna was tested with the Y chromosome test (67 marker) and I am quite certain unfortunately that John Scott Livingston is not a match with Dr. Livingstone's great nephew or other Livingstons in his DNA group in the familytree DNA project. My father also had been told by his father that their Livingston relatives were related to Dr. Livingstone and with the test of our Livingston cousin, we found out that our Livingston relatives were also not related to Dr. Livingstone. My elderly father was quite upset with me when I told him as all of his life he had believed there was a family connection. So I know that people can be quite disappointed when they find out that they aren't related to our most famous of all the Livingstones The reality of the situation is that so far just a very small number of the Livingstones/Livingstons tested with the Y chromosome test are any kind of match with Dr. Livingstone's Livingstone family group.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Re: James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

Postby Roberta Gilbert » Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:21 am

Sounds like Dr Livingstone is to many Livington(e)s as "Indian Princess" is to many Americans. Many say they have an Indian princess among their ancestors, despite the fact Native Americans didn't use terms like prince, princess, king or queen! :lol:

I wasn't surprised DNA showed no connection to the good doctor--I questioned the connection as a teenager, researched & could find nothing to suggest one. Never said anything to my mom, though. Mostly because in 1965 I had no way to disprove the story, and couldn't find names of his siblings.

Do any of the Kinderhook Livingstons connect/match to the Canadian Livingstons?

Thanks
Roberta Gilbert
 
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Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:05 pm

Re: James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:21 pm

Hi Roberta,

Not that I know of. In a week or two I will be hopefully back in touch in with Kyle Mclea one of our DNA project experts and will get some feedback from him regarding John Scott Livingston's result if I don't hear from Andrew first. As mentioned from Andrew's information from his Lancaster-Boggs-Maclea-Livingstone DNA project website there were two Livingstons that I mentioned in my earlier postings who were thought to be a close match but I suspect they are Americans. Besides your cousin, John Scott Livingston those are the only ones I know of how stated they were descended from James Livingston and Catharine Kuhn are a match.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Re: James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

Postby Roberta Gilbert » Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:39 am

Thanks Donald.
Roberta Gilbert
 
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Re: James Livingston/Catherina Kuhn ancestry

Postby Roberta Gilbert » Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:36 pm

One of the matches in the DNA project lists the ancestor as Herbert Livingston b 1863. Kit # 280901. In my tree I have a Herbert M. Livingston born in West Union, IA to Orrin Livingston & Charlotte Gardner. Orrin is brother to my 3rd great grandfather GIles Livingston. Parents James Livingston b 1796 & Roby Martin. Are these two Herberts the same person? How can I find out, as I don't know how to contact the match?
Roberta Gilbert
 
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