Introducing Myself

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Re: Introducing Myself

Postby livingstoneancestry » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:05 pm

HI Donald

for some reason I cant find the 1891 census with either Jane or John listed. I did see the death certificate. that is very odd that someone would write originally "unknown" for both parents and then write over it the supposed parents names.

I'm not sure about Jane/Jean being a Bremner though... her year of birth of is 1832. there's another Jean/Jane with that same year of birth, daughter of George Bremner, she married George Livingstone

its also a little odd that his year/date of birth is off consistently. on the death certificate it says 7/31/1852.. but it isnt possible since he was in the 1851 census.

for where it says the parents were born in Lanarkshire, is there any chance they actually mean Lanark Twp which is where the family originally settled before moving to Renfrew?

I did post to the Renfrew County Genealogy Facebook page yesterday too to see if I get any hits. its too bad they're arent birth records for John. although if he was born out of wedlock or something else, was that possible back then?

Suzanne
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Re: Introducing Myself

Postby livingstoneancestry » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:09 pm

Hi John

I'll look some more in Neil. he's been really hard to find any info on, unless someone in my line has the info passed onto them... I've tried on the Scotland peoples website and cant even find his notice of death in Scotland. I was able to find a copy of his marriage certificate I believe... but am hitting a brick wall on anything prior to that

fyi, Donald Joseph Livingstone is my youngest brother... I sponsored him for the DNA testing

I know there's also a John Livingston/e from the Ft William area of Scotland I'm suppose to be related to and he came up as a really close match


Suzanne
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Re: Introducing Myself

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:44 am

Hi Suzanne,
I saw that there was a John Bremner in the 1851 census age 1 1/2 . I cant explain that one. A nephew of Isabella's? This John Bremner would have to have been born abt. 1850 or 1849 to be that age at the time of the 1851 Census. Don't know. All the subsequent census records list only a John Livingston in that same William Livingston and Isabella Bremner residence and with an age generally consistent in census records for someone born abt. 1852. Yet another reason why this one is really perplexing. One of many reasons it would seem.

THere is however even more compelling evidence suggesting John B. Livingston actually was born in 1852.
I can tell you that the given birth date given by John B. Livingston himself in his 1901 Canadian Census July 13, 1852 and that is precisely the same birth date given by family member in 1931 on his death certificate. The informant listed on the death certificate is a son R. M. Livingston. So I am hoping for these reasons that the this date is the correct one.THe death certificate states that he was born July 13, 1852 and died June 30, 1931. The wonderful thing about the Canadian Census of 1901 is that the form required full birth dates. The first Canadian census to do so and the only bit of luck I have seem to have had with the John B. Livingston records is that the birth date he gave in 1901 is a match with the birth date on his death certificate. Still as I said it all a bit confusing.

John Livingston is recorded in the 1891 Canadian Census as John Levingston age 39. He is located in Grattan Township, Renfrew County, Ontario Living with his wife Jane, their children and his mother Jane Levingston age 69. One break I did get from this census is John was asked the relationship of the family members listed in the census to the head householder and he stated that Jane Levingston age 69 was his mother. While in the previous census records we could only assume they might be mother and son there was no information included stating that they were. So I don't get many breaks with this John B. Livingston research but occasionally something tangible surfaces in this maelstrom of Livingston confusion.

If you follow this and the previous census records it looks pretty clear that this is the John Livingston and Jane Livingston that is residing in the earlier years with William and Isabella Livingston. That much I think is safe to say. Regarding the 1891 Census did you try looking for John Levingston age 39 Grattan Township, Renfrew County, Ontario, Canada?

The information on the original copy of the Death Certificate of John Bremner Livingston is most interesting. The informant was his son R. M. Livingston
He was asked the name of the father of John Bremner Livingston and it was apparently first written in "Not Known" and then scribbled in William Livingston and under that the birthplace given of the father of the deceased was first of all written in Ontario and then scribbled in Lanarkshire, Scotland
He was then asked to fill in the maiden name of the Mother of the deceased and written was "Not Known" and then scribbled in beside it the name Jean Bremner. Under that the birthplace of the mother of the deceased is given as "Not Known" and then scribbled in Lanarkshire, Scotland. I think this is where the source of confusiion was some months ago regarding a William LIvingston married to a Jean or Jane Bremner and not to Isabella Bremner. I think this document may have been the source of that confusion. As far I know William Livingston of Renfrew County was only married once to an Isabella Bremner and felt several months ago something was not quite right about the William Livingston and Jean or Jane Bremner information. Given what we have seen in the Grattan Township, Renfrew County records it did not quite add up. Anyways I hope that have made some progress is solving this aspect of the mystery even if other aspects of this mystery remain unsolved.

Having lost my mother and a few years later my father I can well understand his son's state of mind at that moment after his father's passing and he might have forgotten the details he had been told sometime years earlier by his parents during that stressful time.


regards,

Donald
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Re: Introducing Myself

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:08 pm

Hi Suzanne,

John Livingstone born abt. 1773 settled at Little Judique in Inverness County, Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia in 1803 according to John's 1818 Census info. Most of the Cape Breton Livingstons seem to have actually originated in Mull and in one case neighbouring Morvern and so far all of those who have been tested in our DNA project including those who ancestors resided in nearby Prince Edward Island all are a match with your brother to some degree and others in Parker Livingston group. THese families likely all departed from Mull via the port of Tobermory which is in Mull or farther off at the port at Fort William. In the 1770's there were likely very few Livingstons residing in the Fort William area and I suspect it was actually John Livingstone's point of departure in Scotland on his way to Nova Scotia in 1803 rather than his birthplace, though I can't be 100 per cent certain of that.

Most of the Perthshire Livingstons like many of those who resided in the Lanarkshire in the late 1700's and early 1800's were of families with roots with Western Argyll Livingstons. I think that is shown in your brother's test results. I would also assume that William Livingston's father or grandfather was born in a parish in Western Argyll perhaps even in Mull and had some distant relation with the ancestors of those participants of the Parker Livingstone Group a number of whom seem to have resided in Mull or neighbouring areas in the ancestral homeland of the ancient ancestors of highland maclea Livingstones. Unfortunately as you mentioned to John, documentation on the birthplace of Neil Livingston father of William Livingston of Port of Monteith, Perthshire does not seem exist so that is impossible to prove his origins. I think however that the DNA test is providing you with some clues of he and his families likely origins that you cant find in any of the surviving Scottish parish records. That your Perthshire Livingston seem to have been connected to Livingston families living in the 1700's and 1800's in neighbouring Argyll County in Western Argyll in particular, should not be too surprising given that it is known that in the 1700's, highland families were migrating into Perthshire and Lanarkshire. By the 1800's Lanarkshire had one of the largest population of highland Livingstons next to Argyll County itself. Perthshire in close proximity to Argyll would be one of those Counties that migrating highland families would go to seek new opportunities.

In the years following the 1745 Rebellion, our clan folk like others in the highlands found themselves leaving parishes they had lived in for generations to start a new life elsewhere. For our Livingstons a significant number from Argyllshire found work in lowland Lanarkshire but others ended up in North Carolina in the United States, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and other parts of what was British North America later becoming Canada. Still later in the 1800's Australia and New Zealand beckoned many a displaced tenant farmer from Argyllshire. Most of those within the Parker Livingston group who are a match with your brother are Livingstons whose highland ancestors settled in one of these places at some point time in the past.

The genetic distance of 6 or 7 amongst some of the Livingstones in the Parker Livingston group as John has pointed out I think is a clear indication that some of those who share a common Maclea Livingstone ancestor before we even referred to our Clan as Livingstone must have shared this common ancestor a great many centuries ago which in itself to me suggests that our Livingstone family group were likely living in their ancestral homeland in Western Argyll for centuries. And like Clan Ferguson some of whom are noticeably, close genetic match to those in Parker Livingstone group, before Western Argyll the Maclea Livingstone ancestors of those in the Parker LIvingston group have no doubt an interesting and long history in ancient Ireland where both they and Fergusons lived in ancient Dalriada before their arrival in Scotland.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Introducing Myself

Postby jmlivingstone » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:56 pm

Just had a look at OPR 388/10 489, marriage of Neil Livingstone & Margaret Woodhouse on 02 July 1792 at Port of Menteith, spelling is Livingstown, not Livingston/e.

Scotlands People have quite a number of entries using this spelling. if you are stuck using normal spelling of the name, it could be worth having a look at this spelling,

John
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Re: Introducing Myself

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:10 pm

Hi John,

I think you will find that many of the Livingstons in your group have Livingston matches as far as 67-6 and even 67-7. I know this to be the case and I think it very interesting and significant. Like yourself and others I am no expert on interpreting and understanding the complexities of the DNA results but I would assume that my own Livingston cousin distant 67-6 matches indicates a family connection in Western Argyllshire occurring at some point of time beyond the 18th century. The same I think could be said of 67-7. Livingston matches at 67-6 and 67-7 appears to be the farthest genetic distance appearing with the Livingston results at 67 markers. At 111 markers that of course would be a higher number again. There aren't many who have taken the 111 marker test so I must admit to mostly studying the 67 marker results which most of the group have done. The 111 marker test though is particularly useful when you find you have a close match at the 67 level. Most people would excited to have close matches at 67-1 or 67-2 and 67-3 but I am also excited about those much greater genetic distance of 67-6 and 67-7 that most in the Parker Livingston group are seeing. I think the genetic distance results like this has to be understood in context with the historic fact that the Livingstons of Western Argyll descend from highland Macleas/Maconleas of Western Argyll who changed their name to Livingstone/Livingston apparently by the mid 1750's. The Maclea'Maconlea and their descendants Mcdunsleas etc were living in Western Argyllshire for a good number of centuries and were living in Western Argyllshire presumingly since the earliest time when their Dalriada Irish ancestors left Ireland and colonized Argyllshire. Clan Fergusson some of whom were are a match with interestingly share a similar ancestral history linking them to ancient Irish Dalriada who colonized Scotland and coming into contact and conflict I assume with Scots already here with Pict origins. Like Clan Ferguson there are number of different Livingston families when your talking about DNA results. The DNA results I think challenges the notions that Livingstons are some how one family group. Rather I suspect the DNA results suggest there are number of Livingston family groups participating in DNA research. The Parker Livingston Group being just one of a number of Livingston families at least speaking in terms of DNA results. Not certain everyone is aware of that.

Regarding those Livingstons with documented Western Argyllshire ancestry but not part of the Parker Livingston group, I have been wondering if some Livngstons could have Dalriada ancestral origins and other Pict origins and if that is not showing up in the interesting DNA results of Argyllshire Livingstons. Clearly I think the Parker Livingston group likely of ancient Dalriada Irish ancestry. I have been looking into this over the past few years, I am waiting until there is more interest in the Clan in researching the possibility of Pict and Dalriada roots in Western Argyllshire Livingstons with the DNA results.

Presumingly those matches at 67-6 and 67-7 are Livingstons who are definitely related but at a much greater distance in the past than those of 67-1 67-2 and 67-3 which are the closest matches you are likely to see. Persons matching with you at those genetic distances likely shared a common Maclea ancestor I would suspect in the 1600's or 1700's and in some cases in the 1800's. Unless you are lucky enough to match those persons results with family records census record etc unfortunately in most cases you won't be able to precisely know when that relatively close ancestral connection occurred even in close matches but at least in being aware that close matches exist when they happen you can try and see if there is any surviving information linking your Maclea Livingston family with those that are your closest matches. Those Livingstons at 6-6 and 67-7 clearly are a match with our Livingstons in the Parker Livingston group but their ancestral connection must be considerably more distant and not surprising to me given the fact that our Maclea Livingston ancestors have an ancient history in Western Argyllshire and in Dalriada,Ireland before that. I believe that 67-7 is the farthest genetic distance for a Livingston in the group that i have seen but I do understand that there are some Livingstons in our group who have Livingstons of the Parker Livingston group that have more than 7 markers distance so I am pretty certain that the 67 marker results aren't showing that some in the Parker LIvngston group have Parker Livingston matches at 67-8 and 67-9. I suspect that there are 67-8 and 67-9 Livingston matches with some in the Parker Livington group and family treendna just shows matches up to 67-7 as far as I know. Again not surprised given how apparently old our Maclea Livingstone ancestral line probably is. I think we are talking in some cases of a number of centuries given our lengthy history in Western Argyllshire.

I would assume my Livingston Cousin;s match at 67-1 with one Livingston in the project indicates inversely that the match occurred in Western Argyll in the 18th century in Morvern. In the case of the 67-1 close match with a lot of work I managed to find a clue that the descendant of the match was a worker from Killundine, Morvern in the early 1800's and then moved with his Mull wife back to Mull before settling in Canada later. Oddly enough there is a Miles Livingston in the Movern record's living at Killundine, Movern in 1812 and my great-great-great grandfather was named Miles Livington but he left for Canada in 1812 and married in 1812. Oddly enough not the same Miles but I am pretty certain that Miles Livingston who states in his 1812 marriage record that he was a native of Morvern but married in Islay, Argyll is not the Miles who in 1812 had his child christened in Morvern. So clues are there that there is very close family connection in the 1700's and the apparently the early 1800's with the Livingston family of Killundine, Morvern a tenant settlement on the western coast of Morvern. At same time my great-great grandfather Miles Livingston was probably ancestrally connected with a number of the Movern Livingstons listed in the 1779 Census in the other neighbouring Movern settlement on the west coast of Morvern such as Savary, Barr etc and with the Morvern Macleas and Maconleas recorded in the 1716 list I have of those Maclea Maconlea tenants of Morvern who were suspected of being Jacobites.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Re: Introducing Myself

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:29 pm

Hi John,

Yes there does seem to be an interesting number of spelling variations of Livingstone and Livingston. Also have seen Livingstoun. Good idea to check all the possible variations Livingstone, Livingston, Levingston being the most common I think but there are as you say others out there in the old records.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2427
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

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