Two John Livingston and Catharine Campbells in Kilninian Par

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Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Two John Livingston and Catharine Campbells in Kilninian Par

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi all,

As an update on my earlier discussion of John Livingston and Catharine Campbell who lived in Northern Mull in Kilninian Parish, Argyll in the early 1800's before settling in Nova Scotia I pointed out that upon closer examination it is quite clear that there were two John Livingston and Catharine Campbells that married oddly enough in the year 1805 in Kilninian Parish in Northern Mull, Argyll in the early 1800's and again oddly enough both arrived in Nova Scotia and seem to have ended up in Inverness County, Cape Breton.

My Revision Possible Livingston families some of whom may have settled in Inverness County, Cape Breton

John Livingston of Penmore, Mull and Catharine Campbell Family No. 1
married Dec.31, 1805
Children
1. Mary Levingston of Penmore bapt. Nov. 17,1806
2. John Levingston of Penmore bapt. June 27, 1808
3. Jannet Livingston of Aird (of Penmore) bapt. Sept.3,1810
4. Donald Livingston of Aird (of Penmore) bapt. Nov. 8, 1812
5. Alexander Livingston of Aird (of Penmore) bapt. June 3,1814
6. Catharine Livingston of Penmore bapt. Aug. 21, 1816
7. Colin Livingstone of Penmore bapt. Sept. 1, 1818
8. Christina Livingstone of Penmore bapt. Dec. 26, 1820

John Livingston residing at Penalbanach circa 1810 (near Tobermory) and Catharine Campbell Family No.2
John Levingston of Morvern (Parish) married Jan.22, 1805 Catharine Campbell of Teang, Kilninian Parish, Mull in Kilninian Parish, Mull
1. John Livingston of Penalbannach bapt. January 24,1810 (Mother recorded as Mary Campbell)
2. Grace Livingstone of Penalbanach bapt. Dec. 15, 1811
3. Duncan Livingstone of Penalbanach bapt. Nov. 14, 1813
4. Hugh Livingstone of Kilmory bapt. Feb. 3, 1815
5.Flory Livingston of Kilmory bapt. Jan. 2, 1817
6. Mary Livingstone of Kingarar bapt. Aug. 1, 1819

There is no marriage record for a John Livingston residing in Penalbanach and his wife Catharine Campbell prior to 1810 however I did find a second John Livingston and Catharine Campbell also married in the year 1805 oddly enough that I assume are the John Livingston and Catharine Campbell that after their marriage were at Penalbanach, Kilmory and KIngarar before settling in Mull River, Cape Breton in 1824. Their marriage record states John Livingston of Morvern (Parish) married Catharine Campbell of Teang on January 22, 1805 in Kilninian Parish, Mull, Argyll. Information sent me several years by local INverness County, Cape Breton historian Dr. James St. Clair confirms that this John Livingston and his wife Catharine Campbell of a Campbell family that lived at Teang in Northern Mull settled at Mull River in Inverness County in Cape Breton in the year 1824. Since they married in 1805 it would appear that some of the children of this John Livingston and Catharine Campbell are not included in the list of baptisms in Kilninian Parish. Apparently those born between the year 1805 and 1809 are missing. Dr. St. Clair's info included some but not apparently all of the children born to this John Livingston and Catharine Campbell. His list included a JOhn LIvingston, Neil Livingston, Flora, Grace, Ann, Mary and an Allan some of which are included in the baptism list above but others are not. Perhaps they were the older children born between 1805 and 1809 whose baptism records do not survive. What seems clear from Dr. St. Clair's info is that John, Grace Flory and Mary that according to Dr. St. Clair were children born in Scotland to the John LIvingston and Catharine Campbell that settled in Mull RIver seem to match up with a John, Grace, Flory and Mary listed as being the children of a John LIvingston and Catharine Campbell who lived in the early 1800's in Northern Mull in Kilininian Parish. So my assumption therefore it the partial list from the baptism of the children of a JOhn LIvingston and Catharine Campbell who lived at Penalbanach, Kilmory and KIngarar in Mull must be the John Livingston and Catharine Campbell who settled at Mull RIver, INverness County, Cape Breton in 1824.

regards,

Donald
jmlivingstone
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: Two John Livingston and Catharine Campbells in Kilninian

Post by jmlivingstone »

Hi Donald,

I had a look at Mull Families, it has the following;

1). Family of John, b. Tenga, Aros, has a Neil, but not an Allan, this info is credited to Dr. Jim St. Clair & Linda Brook.

2). Family of John, c. 20 Jan. 1782, has son Colin d. 1867 PEI.

3). Parents of John in (2) above, Duffus b. 1742 ? at Arin, Mull & Mary Campbell.

I seem to remember some research being done a few years ago on a Duffus,

John.
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Two John Livingston and Catharine Campbells in Kilninian

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi John,
Tenga is also spelt Tengie and in the parish records sometimes as Teang in Kilninian Parish.
Yes that Dufus Livingston rings a bell with me also. He was one of the Livingston old timers for sure born back in the days when most of the Livingstons in Mull still went by the old name of Mconlea or Maclea in the 18th century records. There was also a Dunslea Livingston. Where did I see him? In the 1779 Argyll census in Mull ? Not sure but it might have been there. Dunslea is half in the old clan and half in the new as his first name harkens to the time of his Livingston ancestors when they went by the name of Dunslea or McDunslea and subsequently dropping the d became Mconlea or Mclea and then finally went by the name Livingston. And likely when born Dunslea Livingston was named at birth Dunslea Mconlea or something like that and not until later in the 1700's when started to refer to himself as a Livingston. Now where did I see that Duffus and Dunslea? Dufus is mentioned in Kilninian parish records. I think I saw his name the other day. I wonder what the significance of the name Dufus was in Western Argyll i n his time.

Thanks for this information. I have noticed on the internet a couple of notions from folks I assume are related to the Mull River Livingstons in some way as to where John Livingston of Mull River was born and when, when I looked the other day as well. Some of it was not quite what Dr. St. Clair stated in his notes he sent me in 2009. I am not sure that anyone really knows when John Livingston of Scotland who settled in Mull River in 1824 was born for certain or precisely where he was born. I think however last week I may have found a possible lead at least his possible place of origin. It was thought that he was born in Kilninian Parish, Mull I think which I thought was a reasonable assumption. I never saw it stated he was born in Teing just that his wife Catharine Campbell was. He may however have actually been born in Neighbouring Movern Parish according to information I just noticed last week in what I convinced is his 1805 marriage record in the Kilninian Parish records which states that John Livingston of Morvern m. Catharine Campbell of Teang on January 1805 in Kilninian Parish, Mull. A marriage entry from 1805 in the Kilninian Records which I noticed last week, I am certain is his surprisingly states that he was not from Mull but from Morvern Parish which something that neither I nor Dr. Sr. Clair I don't think was aware of. That was certainly new to me anyways when I saw it mentioned in this marriage record from 1805 last week. I am pretty certain this is John Livingston's and his wife catharine Campbell of TEang's marriiage because it idenftied his wife clearly as Catharine Campbell of Teang.I am 100 percent certain that is the Catharine Campbell that Dr. St. Clair mentioned was the one that settled with her husband John Livingston about 1824 in Mull River, Inverness County, Cape with some other Taing Campbells including her sister Ann who married Parlan McFarlane and this marriage record states that Ann Campbell is from Teang. Dr. St. Clair is descended from this McFarlane family that lived at Mull River and he is also related to Livingstons. I have not got feedback on this discovery in Cape Breton yet, but am hoping to in the future. This complete info is not included in the index and that and the fact that John's name is spelled Levingston is probably why I did not notice this very detailed and surprising marriage entry much earlier than now.

Several years ago we had some interesting discussions with a number of people here regarding both John Livingston and Catharine Campbell who left Kilninian Parish, Mull in the 1820's and were said to have settled around 1824 at Mull River, Inverness County, Cape Breton and ended with the question unresolved of whether the Mull River and nearby Whycocomagh Livingstons were of the same Livingston family. The problem was that there was not a lot of information out there regarding John Livingston Sr. and Catharine Livingston who lived at Mull River. No birth records, no marriage record in the information at that time and very little info regarding the two of them. Much more on their children and their families later in Cape Breton. It was believed that John Livingston and Catherine Livingston arrived in Mull RIver in 1824 from Mull and that John Sr died around 1840. I did not know much more than that about the two of them. I did however learn one important detail about Catharine Campbell which recently has come in very handy last week. An early account stated that Catharine Campbell, John Livingston's wife was from Teang, Mull also spelt in the Kilinian Parish records as Tenga or Tengie oddly enough. Given that lack of records for John Livingston Sr. and Catharine Campbell a number of folks have come up with own ideas as to whom John Livingston Sr was and where he was actually born an when I noticed which in some cases have strayed quite a bit from Dr. St. Clair's original research info. HIs information comes in a good part from I think original accounts he learned from relatives of his who were related to old John Livingston Sr and Catharine and lived in the area as did DR. St. Clair's families. He took upon himself to record all those old stories from the local families from his community in Cape Breton so that they would be known to future generations.

The second time around I determined to go through the Nova Scotia records after they settled and that of the WHycocomagh Livingstons to update my info with the birth, marriage and death records pertaining the original Mull River and Whycocomagh LIvingston families. I then took a second look at the information in the Kilninian Parish records regarding the two John Livingston and Catharine Livingston's who lived in Kilninian Parish in the early 1800's. Oddly enough it seemed one seemed connected to the family that settled at Mull River in 1824 while the other to a family that arrived in Nova Scotia in 1821 and whose two sons Alexander and Colin seemed to have ended up in Whycocomagh also in Inverness County. This was speculation and I still was not certain what the precise scenario was regarding these two families except that it seemed that they both had settled in Cape Breton or Nova Scotia in the 1820's. Both their family records in Kilninian Parish end abruptly. One in 1818 and one in 1820. One John Livingston and Catharine Campbell were clearly connected to the Penmore and nearby Aird area. They were also residing at Penmore or at least John was when they were married in December of 1804. They are recorded a Livingston. The baptisms of their children indicated also that the family remained in the Penmore and nearby Aird area until their last baptism recorded in 1820. I presumed that they are a family of John Livingston and Catharine Livingston that Kilinian Parish letter of departure and passage info from 1821 indicated they were to sail to Pictou Nova Scotia that year. The approximate ages of the family given seemed a perfect match for the Penmore Livingston family of John Livingston and Catharine Campbell.

Then there is the matter of the John Livingston and Catharine Campbell family no. 2.. How to link that family to the marriage record of John Livingston Sr. and his wife Catharine Campbell of Teaing, Mull who settled in Mull River in 1824. While the Penmore Livingston records clearly linked the childrens baptisms in the Penmore and Aird area to the parents John LIvingston and Catharine Campbell family no. 1 who lived at penmore at the time of their 1805 marriage. Then there was the John LIvingston and Catharine Campbell family no.2. I had at first no marriage record for them only the baptisms of their children which these entries indicated most of the children were apparently born while the family was residing at Penalbanach a several miles east of Penmore where Livingston family no. 1 lived and at Kilmory and one other settlement in Kilninian Parish. These baptisms occurred from the year 1810 to 1818. Then last week I found a marriage for a second John Livingston and Catharine Campbell I had somehow missed perhaps because it under the name Levingston. It did not give the location where the groom John Livingston was living in Kilninian Parish and to my surprise indicated he was from Movern Parish and that he was indeed the John Livingston who married Catharine Campbell of Teang. The second piece of info was of course essential as it identified this John Livingston of Morvern as being the John Livingston who married Catharine Campbell of Teang and I knew from Dr. St. Clair's local history info that the Campbells who among the first settlers at Mull River in Cape Breton where John and Catharine would subsequently settle were of Teung Campbell family origin as was Catharine herself. So I knew I had found a sort of Kilnian parish Livingston rosetta stone so to speak which finally linked at least one John Livingston and Catharine Campbell of the two I had found to the couple that settled at Mull River in 1824. Just a bit of crazy luck after a lot of dead ends and wasted time getting nowhere. And I realized that even if this whole thing is not solved there is now a proven marriage record for John Livingston and Catharine Livingston Teung, MOrvern that settled at Mull River, something that I had not seen before in any of the previous information from Cape Breton on John Sr and Catharine of Mull River, Cape BReton.

As I mentioned the only thing the marriage record did not really indicate was where John Livingston Sr. of Morvern and Catharine LIvingston of Teang were married in Kilinian Parish. It may have been at Parish church in Kilninian. I don't think it would be at Teang. It was probably just a small tenant settlement. I will go back to the page I found it and see where others on the page were married. Anyways I now had a marriage record for John Levingston and Catharine Campbell no. 2 which took place in January of 1805 same year as John and Catharine No. 1 oddly enough. It seemed that this John Livingston of Morvern and Catharine Campbell of Teang, Kilininian Parish, Mull matched up to only other baptism list I had for children of a John Livinston and Catharine Campbell which took place beginning in 1810 mostly at Penalbannach but also a few at Kilmory and one other settlement up to year 1818. What was noticeable was that there were clearly some baptisms of their older children missing between the years 1805 and 1810. Perhaps as many as three or four children were not recorded. Perhaps before they arrived at Penalbannach. Were their older children born at Teang? Teang or Tenga appears to be several miles south of PEnalbanach in Kilninian Parish. There was one other important piece of information from Dr. St. Clair that I think helped to link this second family listed in baptisms to the marriage record of this John Livingston of Morvern and his wife Cathy Campbell of Teang, Mull and that was the fact that Dr. St. Clair included in his list of children of John and catharine Livingston of Mull RIver, Cape Breton a John, Grace, Flora and Mary and indeed there was a John Grace, Flora and Mary amongst the children that were in the Penmore and Kilmory group that I linked with John LIvingston and his wife Cathrine Campbell of Teang. And definitely no Grace or FLora Livingston amongst those children of the Penmore John Livingston and Catharine Campbell. So while the baptism records may be missing for some of this family no. 2 it appears that this second John Livingston and his wife Catharine Campbell with the Teang, Mull family connection is the one that settled at Mull River, Cape Breton in 1824. And yes there were some other family apparently a Neil was one of them who died apparently on or before 1858 in Mull River, Cape BReton but there are no census or other records for in Cape Breton and it possible he was one of those whose baptism records were lost and thus there was not record for him amongst the children of JOhn LIvingston and his wife Catharine Livingston of Teang, Mull.

To make matters however more interesting and more complicated it would seem that the John Livingston and Catharine Campbell of Penmore family seem to have arrived possibly in Nova Scotia in 1821 and while I dont have any information what became of them after or proof of family no. 1 in Cape Breton I do believe that two of their sons one ALexander born 1814 seems to have ended up firstly at Mull River and then later he purchased land nearby at Whycocomagh where another younger brother Colin Livingston b. 1818 seems to have also settled before Colin and his famiy moved on to Prince Edward Island a few years before his death in 1867. I am hoping that the the descendant of John LIvinston Sr and Cathaarine Campbell of Mull RIver Cape Breton who is soon to be a part of our DNA project will be able to help resolve through his participation in the DNA project whether there is any connection between the Mull River and Whycocomagh LIvingstons so I can get beyond the speculation I have been engaging in regarding a possible connection betweeen the two families and establish whether or not they are two different families from Western Argyll origin. We already have I should addd a WHycocomagh Livingston descendant in the project as well as descendant of the Colin livingston I mentioned who we also understand to be from WHycocomagh originally. This next dna test may help explain much I am hoping.

ANyways that it the long or the short of it. If that was indeed the short of it I would hate to have seen the unabridged version. Sorry about that.


regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Two John Livingston and Catharine Campbells in Kilninian

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi John,
Kudos to you sir.
I noticed in 2012 we were discussing the Mull River and WHycocomagh Cape Breton Livingston families and where in Mull the John Livingston Sr. who settled at Mull River Inverness County with his wife Catharine Campbell of Mull, Scotland came from. You mentioned that there were two John Livingston and Catharine Campbell marriage record in the Kilninian Parish record so credit should go for you on that. You may recall this post from you:
Re: John Hugh Livingston
by jmlivingstone » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:48 am

Hi Donald,

Not sure if this will help or not, according to the OPR's, two John Livingstones married Catherine Campbells in 1805,

1. John, resident of Morvern & Catherine resident of possibly Scarig (very difficult to read), m. 20 Jan. 1805.

2. John & Catherine both resident Penmore, m. 31 Dec. 1805,

John


I did not have access to the original document in those days but recently took a look at a very sharp version of the original entry via Scotlands People and I am very certain it actually states Catharine Campbell of Teang which is the spelling that I noticed Dr. St. Clair used. ALso spelt Tengie or Tenga. It is pretty sharp when I looked at the entry document on line. So this was the actual marriage record it is pretty clear of the John Livingston and his wife Catharine Campbell who Dr. Sr. Clair stated was of the Teang, Mull Campbell family. As mentioned Dr. St. Clair was related to Parlan McFarlane who was one of the earliest settlers at Mull River around 1821 and whose wife Ann Campbell also from Teang was said to me Mrs John Livingston' sister according to Dr. St. Clair information he sent me several years ago. So that marriage record you located was the one I was looking for but basically did not check out at the time I think because I was so focused on the Penmore Livingstons. I also missed the fact that the John Livingston that married Catharine Campbell of Teang. In any event it is especially important now that we will a new DNA participant who is a descendant of the Mull River Livingston family. Anyways I wanted to give credit to you for finding and pointing out that marriage record back in 2012 and regreting that I did not pay closer attention to it until later.

My feeling in 2016 is that both John Livingston and Catharine Campbells of Kilninian Parish Northern Mull settled in Nova Scotia in the 1820's and now have some evidence to back this notion for both the Mull River and nearby Whycocomagh Livingston family.
In 2012 I was arguing that the Penmore John Livingston and Catharine Campbell who married in December of 1805 were the JOhn LIvingston and Catharine Campbell that settled at Mull River now it would seem I leaning toward the notion that it was the John Livingston of Morvern who married Catharine Campbell of Teang and married in January of 1805 that is likely the one that settled in Mull River 1824. That being I should mention that the WHycocomagh Cape BReton family that are connected to a Alexander Livingston b. 1814 and apparently a Colin Livingston b. 1818 Barry Judson's ancestor had a letter of departure and passage info for the year 1821 as a family heirloom over the years apparenntly the orignal nineteenth century document which states that a John Livingston and Catharine Campbell of Kilninian Parish were leaving in 1821 for Pictou, Nova Scotia. The descendant of Alexander Livingston at Whycocomagh had this document but could not explain why the Alexander Livingston family had it. I think as odd as it may seem this refers to the Penmore Livingston family of John Livingston and Catharine Campbell who also settled in Nova Scotia in the early 1820's and at least two of their sons later arrived in INverness County, Cape Breton after first settling with their parents elsewhere in Nova Scotia. The really interesting thing is that there son Alexander early on himself and his family may have lived for a time at Mull River near to the other family of the John Livingston and Catharine Campbell connected to Teung, MUll according to a family record I found. Later there should be land records showing that Alexander purchased land in nearby Whycocomagh, Cape BReton. ANyways the DNA test results of a descendant of John Livingston and his wife Catharine Livington of Teang when compared with the DNA participant results of a descendant of Alexander Livingston of whycocomagh who is currently in the Project may give us some indication how closely related they may or may not be.

regards,

Donald
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