Newcomer and descendant of Archibald Livingston

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Greg Livingston
Posts: 308
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:42 pm
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA

Re: Newcomer and descendant of Archibald Livingston

Post by Greg Livingston »

Canadian Livingstone wrote:Hi Kristen,

Great to hear ....

Baron Livingstone's father the late Baron Alastair Livingstone wrote a book which lists the name of the some of the highlanders who surviving documents show participated in the Jacobite revolt of 1745. I should consult with that book and see if there were Campbells in the Stewart of Appin led Appin Regiment. I can't rule out the possibility that some Campbells supported the Jacobites, but I would think that most of the Campbells of Argyllshire were supporters of the King and many of the high ranking officers of pro government Argyll regiment in that rebellion were I think Campbells.

regards,

Donald
Donald,

I have that book, No Quarter Given, The Muster Roll of Prince Charles Edward Stuart's Army, 1745-46. There are 51 Campbells in the book but none of those listed were part of the Appin Regiment. Only two were listed as being from Argyllshire.
Greg Livingston
Clan Commissioner
Northglenn, Colorado, USA
Canadian Livingstone
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Newcomer and descendant of Archibald Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Greg,

Yes I can't imagine too many Campbells in Western Argyll would have been supporters of Bonnie Prince Charlie and the Rebels. I have heard there were a few Campbells who were Jacobites either in this rebellion or an earlier one, but quite true that there would have very very few Campbells with the Prince in 1745 and 1746. The Argyll Campbells had for some time been opposed to the Stuarts and the restoration of that exiled family to the throne. Most of the Campbells in Argyll including tenants and rank and file Campbell clan members likely supported that position. As well a number of the other Clans in Scotland that had participated in the previous rebellion on the Jacobite side, chose not to risk, the lives of their clansmen and the severe punishment of the Crown to those who participated in the rebellion should the Jacobites once again fail in their revolt. Had the Prince been able to attract more of these clans to his cause and into his Army and not made the blunder to be lured into the disastrous battle at Culloden which did not go in the favour of rebels from the very beginning as had so many of the other battles in the 1745 Rebellion then there perhaps the outcome might have been different. If the Jacobite army had survived the April 1746 Battle of Culloden reasonably intact or avoided that decisive battle altogether, given their strength and numbers of their army probably the best they could have hoped in the months to come would be a protracted guerrilla war with the Duke of Cumberland's forces but I suspect a decisive victory for the rebel army against the now better organized military force of the Duke of Cumberland would have been more and more unlikely had the Rebellion gone beyond 1746. In any event after the defeat at Culloden in 1746, Bonnie Prince Charlie did not seem have an organized plan of continued resistance in the highlands or some sort of plan B so to speak and it was decided that the Prince, the surviving Jacobite officers and enlisted men were to disperse, go into hiding and escape capture in the aftermath of the battle. It is however hard to avoid in looking back at major historic events like the Battle of Culloden and the sinking of the Titanic and thinking to yourself what if?

I had understood that Donald Livingstone 1728-1816 of Savary upon returning the Appin Regiment banner, hid in the Mull and Morvern area, but I noticed recently a reliable Morvern Livingstone account from the 19th century states that he hid in Ardnamurchan near Morvern. I am sorry that missed that detail in my reconstruction of the life of Donald Livingstone from the old stories that have been told of him. I think it would make more sense for Donald to head for the more remote area and when you think of it hanging around Mull or the Morven coast would make him an easy target for the local Argyll militia who were searching for fugitive rebel soldiers in hiding and the punitive British Navy raids along the Morvern coast that the Duke of Cumberland had ordered, nowing as he did that Morvern and Mull was full of Camerons and others sympathetic to the rebel cause.
regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
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Re: Newcomer and descendant of Archibald Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Kristen,

The Morvern Livingston research strategy I have been working with is to try and piece together Morvern Livingston family groups working with the surviving 1841-1901 Morvern Parish, Argyll census records and the Parish records birth and marriage records that unfortunately don't survive before 1803. Also I have been utilizing the detailed death records of Morvern Parish still residing in Morvern Parish from 1855 to 1901. While some Livingston families left Morvern before 1855 when these death records first were registered, I have found them useful to look over as some of the old-timers who died in the 1855-1881 period have detailed death records which list their husband or wives and most importantly the name of their parents which is the deceased was born before 1803 this info can be found in no other record. In neighbouring Lismore Parish the birth or baptismal records go back to the late 1750's. If that information existed for Morvern Parish, one would be a better position to better determine how these later Morvern Livingston families are related. But one has to work with the surviving Morvern parish record from 1803.

With this problem with the parish records, it may be difficult to precisely certain how the Morvern Livingstonfamily we are researching were related but we can work with what is available. In the case of the three Livingstons of Morvern ancestral origin, they are all a relatively close match but none of them has any family history info linking these three livingston family except information in the Scottish parish records indicating that all three are definitely of Morvern Livingston origin and that an ancestor of each of them was born in the 1770's, presumingly from the info in Morvern, though no birth or baptismal records for them as mentioned survive in Morvern. It seems likely that many of the Livingston families that lived in MOrvern Parish in the early 19th century and subsequently left for the U.S, Canada and elsewhere were likely related either closely or more distantly I suspect and without the before 1803 parish records, the DNA test results for future Livingstons of MOrvern ancestral
origin in the project might help to prove this theory.

Utilizing the 1841, 1851, 1861, 1871 and 1881 Census with the birth and Marriage Parish records of Morvern, i have been over the last couple of years trying to reconstruct some of the known family of Donald Livingstone 1728-1816 though it is not a complete family tree by any means and have made attempt at some of his brother Hugh Livingston's family, though some of it is somewhat speculative.

regards,

Donald
Maverick1975
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Location: Aabybro, Denmark but from Texas and Indiana originally

Re: Newcomer and descendant of Archibald Livingston

Post by Maverick1975 »

Donald,

So I have been chatting with Stephen, my cousin, and he has a letter dated 1899 from Duncan Livingston to my great+ aunt, Anna Livingston. He went back to Lochaline and visited and wrote her a letter. He confirms Hugh (Effie's husband) is in fact buried in that cemetery.

He calls Anna his cousin and talks about Aunt Betty. He also discusses William and Hugh Burke so there is a definite connection and we know Margaret married him.

Stephen brought up a good point in one of his emails. We are questioning Hugh's parentage and whether or not Archibald and Cirsty were his parents. Stephen noted most people passed down the names of their fathers but we have no archibald in our family that I have found. We have a lot of Hughs and Johns though. The 1841 lists Hugh's age as 35, five years roughly younger than Effie who was born in 1801 roughly. So that would put him at 1805 or so. There is a birth record for a Hugh LIvingston born in Jan of 1804. But as Stephen pointed out there is also another Hugh born in 1811. If he was born in 1804, then he was born to John Livingston and his wife, Cirsty MacNiven. If he was born in 1811, he could have been born to Archibald and Cirsty or another Donald and Peggy Livingston.

I'm wondering if the Duncan that traveled with them to America was the same one who wrote the letter or one of the Scioto county Duncans that you have been talking about. I definitely think Aunt Betty is a hint.

We are curious as to your thoughts. I have attached the letter with Stephen's permission.

Kristen
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johnbuchan
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:30 pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Newcomer and descendant of Archibald Livingston

Post by johnbuchan »

I am Stephen, Kristen's new friend and cousin. Kristen pointed me to this website and I just signed up for this group this afternoon. Like Kristen, I am descended from Hugh Livingston and wife Effie Campbell. My great grandfather was their son John. I look forward to learning and participating with this group. I have done a DNA test with Ancestry.com and will figure out what I need to do to participate in this group's DNA project.
Steve
Canadian Livingstone
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Newcomer and descendant of Archibald Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Kristen,

The only Duncan Livingston from Ohio that I know of that went to Western Argyllshire in the 1890's was Duncan Livingston lawyer and Livingston family historian in the 1890's b. 1850 born in Scioto County, Ohio. I would wager that it would be most logically him as he writing in the Celtic Monthly in 1896 an article on the Appin Regiment in which he discussed his relatives and their connection to the famous Donald Livingstone 1728-1816 through his brother Hugh (Ewen) Livingstone who also lived in Savary, Morvern in the latter part of the 1700's and I presume into the early 1800's though we have no information on Hugh's birth or death.
I know for a fact that Duncan Livingston the ohio lawyer born in Scioto County went to Morvern, Argyll in the 1890's I have to see if i have info on what year it was. I see that other older Duncan Livingston from Movern that arrived in New York City harbour in 1851 with you ancestor widow Effy Campbell and her children but am not sure which single Duncan Livingston that is in the 1841 or 1851 Morvern, Argyll census possibly. In any event unlikely he is the one corresponding in the 1890's to your family as he would be incredibly old by the 1890's. We do know that the lawyer Duncan Livingston born in the neighbouring of Scioto County, Ohio was doing his family history in the 1890's wrote an article on Battle of Culloden and talked about his Livingston relatives and their relationship and knowledge of Donald Livingstone 1728-1816 of Savary, Morvern and sometime in th 1890's I know he went to Scotland so that has to be the relative Duncan Livingston that wrote his relatives, your family back in Ohio. I really think so.

I will have to get back to you regarding the possibility that Hugh Livingston is not the son of Archibald Livingston and Chirsty McIntyre. I need to take another look at the Scottish census data. One thing to remember is not to go by the ages given in census data too much as they vary from census to census and often are not accurate. Either census takers in those days were just sloppy or lazy or people did not give correct ages I find variances from one census to the next which it often very difficult to come up with a close to accurate approximate birth date. I do agree though that the name Archibald is not showing up as a name in Hugh's family, their children and their family. I just don't know how significant that is but it is definitely a fact to consider. The name Christina or Christian does show up in Hugh and Effy Livingston's family though doesn't it?

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Newcomer and descendant of Archibald Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Kristen and Stephen,

I know all about old Betty of Morvern! I did research on her if it is the same one and I think it is. This is fantastic. I know exactly who Betty is. I did research on her family line if it is the Betty I am thinking of. There is so many clues in this letter that by tomorrow i will be able to connect the family dots even more and get back to you with who precisely he talking. I mentioned Betty in one of my own articles on Morvern Livingston genealogy. She was a very old widow and while there were number of Betty Livingstons I have come across in my research of Morvern Livington, only one that lived to be a great age and lived in the 1890's that might be connected to Duncan the lawyer. I have actually been trying for a couple of years to link the father of Duncan Livingston of Scioto County, Ohio to Betty Livington's husbands' family if it is the same Betty. Anyways let me work with the information on this letter and I will have probably an explanation for the Scioto County Livingston connection to Betty Livingston of Morvern. I will get back to you tomorrow on this letter. Thanks again Stephen sharing this letter and for taking the time to visit the forum. I think there are some important clues in this letter that links Oho lawyer and family historian Duncan Livingston b. 1850 to old Betty Livingston whom I had research a couple of years ago and possibly to the your Lawrence County Livington family.

Anyways more tomorrow when I unravel all the clues in the letter and work with my own research of Betty Livingston and her husband's family. This letter I think could really explain how the Scioto County Livingstons are connected an other Livington family connected to old Betty. My work is cut out for me tomorrow with this wonderful letter and my own research material on Betty and the Livingstons she is connected to. Thank-you Kristen and Stephen for getting the wheels in motion on this Morvern Livingston family history. More later tomorrow on the possible significance of this letter.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Newcomer and descendant of Archibald Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Kristen and Stephen,

Regarding the Duncan Livingston who wrote the 1899 letter. It was Lawyer and Livingston family historian Duncan Livingston b. 1850 in Vernon Township, Scioto County, Ohio. I very happy to say I can most definitely confirm the author of that 1899 letter from Scotland by Ohio Lawyer Duncan Livingstone as I suspected.

A history of Scioto County, Ohio by Nelson W. Evans Vol 1. Part 1 and 11
Published 1903

Duncan Livingstone Pgs. 309-310

pg. 310
"In the summer of 1899 he (Duncan LIvingtone) visited the land of his forefathers remaining there for about three months"


It is exciting moments like this that reminds me why I enjoy genealogy so much.
regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Newcomer and descendant of Archibald Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Stephen,

The three Livingstones of apparent Morvern Livingston ancestry were tested through the familydna project over the last several years and have had a male ancestry Y Chromosome test done through the familytreedna company with a total of 67 markers tested with each of them and their results compared indicating they are relatively close matches. None of the three tested were aware of a Morvern Livingston family connection or that their Livingston ancestor lived in Morvern, but in all three cases I found that there is parish record info linking their 18th century ancestry to Morvern Parish. I had a hunch that that these three Livingstons might share a common unknown Livingstone ancestor in 18th century Morvern and I ended up sponsoring two of the test including one which is a third cousin of mine a Livingston. Our Clan Society has project working with familytreedna but receives from time to time contact and DNA test info from Livingstons who were tested by other labs. Did you have a Y chromosome test done for your Livingstone ancestry and for how many markers or another sort of DNA test?

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Newcomer and descendant of Archibald Livingston

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Kristen and Stephen,

This is the Betty Livingston whom Duncan Livingston mentions whose husband Donald Livingston I suspect was Duncan's father's brother. Betty McInnes 1818-1912 and her husband Donald Livingston 1805-1877 was likely Duncan Livingston's Aunt and Uncle, which is precisely what I suspected two years ago. It was around then that came up with the notion that Betty's husband Donald Livingston was possibly and brother of ohio Duncan Livingston's father Angus Livingston who settled in Scioto County, Ohio in the 1840's. This letter I think convinces me of that. More on that tomorrow but here is the scoop on old Aunt Betty from my notes of a couple years back:
Duncan's Aunt Betty
Betty McInnes b. January 18, 1818 in Savary, Morvern (See above Livingston Family tree) d.1912 in Lochaline, Morvern m. Donald Livingston born abt. 1806 in Portvada,Mull died March 11, 1877 in Lochaline, Morvern

Children of Betty McInnes daughter of Miles McInnes and Catharine Livingston and Donald Livingston son of Duncan Livingston and Catharine Cameron
1. Margaret Livingston born abt.1842 Achbeg, Morvern
2.Duncan Livingston born abt. 1846 Achbeg, Morvern
3. Catharine Livingston born 1848 Achbeg, Morvern
4. John Livingston born 1851 Achbeg, Morvern
5. Christina (Christy) Livingston b. 1856 Achbeg, Morvern

6. Mary Livingston? buried in Keil Cemetery with parents Donald Livingston and Elizabeth "Betty" McInnes

(Important! Note from the 1841 Census info that Bette Mcinnes and her husband Donald Livingston were residing at Achbeg Morvern at the same time in the 1840's as Hugh Livingston and Effy Livingston so there is a proximity connection to your own Livingston branch of the family. Also Duncan Livingston's widowed grandmother Catharine Livingston, her son Duncan and William Burke Jr. are residing at Achbeg, Morvern in 1841. Betty was the daughter of Miles Mcinnes formerly of Savary who lived at Achbeg farm as well. Many of the McInnes families in Morvern were related to Livingstons of Movern particulary those Livngstons and Mcinnes with roots in Savary. Even the famous Donald Livingston 17281-1816 was the son a John Livingston and his wife Ann McInnes who are buried in a elaborate 18century table tomb in Kiel Cemetery, Morvern.

I also have what I believe are the names of Betty's Livingston father in law and mother in law who would be her husbands parents and presumingly then Ohio Duncan Livingstone's grandparents if I understand the family from my earlier research and the implications of this letter. More tomorrow when I will include how I think these Livingston families are connected or at least most of them.
More tommorrow.

regards,

Donald
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