Which Donald Livingston left Morvern, Argyll in 1851?

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Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Which Donald Livingston left Morvern, Argyll in 1851?

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi All,

In 1851 Effy (Euphemia Campbell) Livingston ) widow of Hugh Livingston of Achabeg, Morvern left Morvern for America with her children Hugh, Christianna,Margaret,John,Mary,Catharine,Ann and Sarah and one other adult Livingston Donald Livingston age given 44 so approximate birth date of abt. 1807, give or take a few years. According to Kristen, Effy's descendant who was fortunate enough to locate the 1851 passenger document this Morvern Livingston family group arrived in 1851 in New York City aboard the vessel the Corra Lin.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cc=1849782

The question however is who could this Donald Livingston be and where did he come. We presume him to be from Morvern but there are only a couple of Donald Livingston's of this age range, but both of them were still residing in Morvern after Effy's departure in 1851. One of them was the husband of Betty Mcinnes Livingstone of Lochaline and the other an agricultural worker who worked with his Livingston Uncle at Ferininish, Morvern and appears in the 1861 Census so he could not be the one who left for America in 1851 and is a witness to the death one of his Livingston relatives who died at Ferninish in the 1850's. This Donald does not appear in the 1861 Census so he may have left Morvern a few years before the 1861 Census. By the 1861 Census there is just one Donald Livingston residing in Morvern born between 1805-1811 and that is Donald Livingston the husband of Betty Mcinnes who lived at Lochaline, Morvern.

Assuming that Donald Livingston, possibly a relative of her late husband Hugh was residing in Morvern and left with Euphemia and her children in 1851 I looked at those Donald Livington's born close to 1807 or 1806 in Morvern in the birth records and in the 1841 and 1851 Census at the time Effy and her family were residing in Morvern. No luck. So it is something of a mystery who this Donald Livingston actually was.



regards.

Donald
Maverick1975
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Location: Aabybro, Denmark but from Texas and Indiana originally

Re: Which Donald Livingston left Morvern, Argyll in 1851?

Post by Maverick1975 »

Hey Donald,

That is actually the question that Stephen and I are struggling with right now. I have not been able to find a Donald Livingston born around that time in any of the census information after they landed in the US in 1851. I wondered if it was the Donald Livingston married to Aunt Betty who maybe accompanied them to the US? But then that seems like a long and expensive trip just to accompany them.

It's been very frustrating trying to locate him. I would like to find something because I'm hoping he was a brother of Hugh's. If he is, that could help us identify Hugh's parents.

Kristen
Canadian Livingstone
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Which Donald Livingston left Morvern, Argyll in 1851?

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Kristen,

Yes indeed if that Donald Livingston was not married to Duncan's Aunt Betty, with family and residing in Achbegg in 1851 and later in Lochaline where he was merchant before he died later in 1877, he would be my first choice as well. I don't think he would have accompanied her to America and then shortly after returned but that might be possible. Yes he is certainly around the same age give or take the same age as the Donald who left with Effy would be that fact that his death record in 1877 records his parents as being Duncan Livington and Catharine Cameron. These might also have been the parents of Angus Livingston who settled in SCioto County, Ohio. All i know for sure at the moment is that Angus Livingston father;s name back in Morvern was Duncan Livingston and his elderly widowed mother Catharine born around 1775 or 1776 was either a Cameron or a Livingston apparently by birth.

There was also in 1841 and 1851 an agricultural worker a single middle aged man Donald Livingston in Ferninish, Morvern a nephew of another Hugh Livingston born in the 1770's and an Angus Livingston both of of Ferninish Parish but he appears as a witness in the 1857 death of this Angus Livingston as resident of Ferninish so seems unlikely it was he was the middle aged Donald Livingston who accompanied your ancestor Effy Livingston to America. I really thought I had a good chance of solving this Donald thing but seems there are just no easy solutions that family mystery either as of yet anyways.

Getting back to Scioto Duncan's grandmother Catherine Livingson b. abt. 1775 or 1776. Now I am still not 100 per cent certain that Duncan's grandmother Catharine who lived with his father Angus and Margaret Livingston in Scioto County, Ohio and had lived in Achabegg in 1830's and early 1840's was a Cameron and not just another Livingston, but we do know from Catharine's Ohio tombstone that she was a "W of Duncan" according to transcription of the old inscription. So for sure Catharine whether a Cameronn or her family name had been Livingston was married to a Duncan Livingston. My first thought you see was that Effy the widow was accompanied by a relative of her late husband Hugh and that this Donald who was with her on the voyage over to America might have a brother of Hughs. That may not the case. He might be a cousin. We just don't know. Regarding Aunt Betty's husband's death record in 1877 stating that his parents were Duncan Livingston and Catharine Cameron the surviving but very incomplete Morvern birth records indicated that a Donald Livingston was born at Portvada, Morvern in 1806 or 1805 I think, son of a Duncan Livingston and Catharine Cameron so assume that could be Betty's husband's birth record. I do know that there was only one Duncan Livingson and Catharine Cameron in Morvern in the early 1800's I pretty certain.

The big question of course that is on my mind here is whether or not seeing as the birth records are so incomplete as to whether or not Duncan Livingston's grandmother Catharine who settled in Scioto County, Ohio in the 1840's and lived in Vernon Township there in 1851 Census with sons Angus, (A. Livingston), Duncan Livingston Sr. and John Livingston. Duncan Jr. and John had come over with Catharine to join the son Angus the furnace guy, could also be the mother of old Lochaline, MOrvern Aunt Betty's husband Donald Livingston. If only I could prove that old Catharine of Scioto County Ohio had the maiden name Cameron then there would be little doubt. Once again I am thwarted in my efforts by those lousy incomplete Morvern Parish records. I am so close to determining whether or not Aunt Betty's husband is an Uncle of Duncan. If I only had that one more piece in the puzzle giving me the name of Angus Livingstons' mother maiden name who lived with him in Scioto County, Ohio and is listed in the Ohio 1851 census info

Then again if Betty Livingston of Lochaline Morvern is referred to as Duncan's Aunt Betty then would her late Husband Donald Livingston formerly of Achabegg and Lochaline Morvern be Duncan's Uncle? Hmm. Maybe that is another clue that he Betty's husband was Duncan's Uncle Donald Livingston. I am stupid. Of course Duncan's father Angus born in 1808 must have been the brother of Aunt Betty's husband. Does this make any sense I wonder. I think it does? I mean if Betty Livingston (Mrs Donald Livingston) is Duncan's Aunt then the simple logic of that would be that Donald Livingston (1806?-1877) son of Duncan Livingston and Catharine Cameron must be Duncan's Uncle. What do you think? Does that make sense to you? The survival of that old family letter of your Great-Aunt's I think was some sort of miracle indeed. Then I go back to question of who were Hugh Livingston's parents and is is within the rhelm of possibility that your ancestor Hugh Livingston could be a brother of Angus and brother of Aunt Betty's husband Donald of Lochaline Morvern. If only all the pieces in this puzzle were so easily found and none of them were missing. But I am afraid that is not to be. There is no easy solution it would appear to the mystery of the family connection between the Scioto County and Walker County Livingstons. The truth of the matter still appears to elude us.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
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Re: Which Donald Livingston left Morvern, Argyll in 1851?

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Christen,

Is is easy to link Betty McInnes Livingston's husband Donald Livingston of Lochaline,Morvern born about 1805 1806 to a Duncan Livingston and Catharine Cameron because that is what is stated on his 1877 death record and because there is an 1805 or 1806 birth entry for a Donald Livingston born to Duncan Livingston and Catherine Cameron. It is a little bit trickier to link Angus Livingston and his brother Duncan Livingston Jr. who lived with in Scioto County, Ohio in 1851 as both children of the same Duncan Livingston and Catharine Cameron but I think there are some clues to this possibility including to the 1899 letter where Angus Livingston's Duncan the lawyer with some familiarity refers to old Betty Livingston 1818-1912 as " Aunt Betty" implying I think that her husband the late Donald Livingston as I am wondering may his father's older brother. It appears that Duncan Livingston Jr. also like Donald has a surviving birth record back in Morvern in the old parish records and it appears he was born in 1810 curiously enough in 1810 to you guessed a Duncan Livingston and Catharine Livington. No Cameron just Livingston but the interesting thing about the Duncan Livingston -DUncan Livingston-Catharine Livingston entry of 1810 is that birth takes place in Barr, Morvern the same Barr, Morvern that is stated in lawyer Duncan Levingston's 1903 Ohio bio as being the birth place just two years later of none other than Duncan's father Angus. This bio was written by Duncan Livingston's boss I think and when Duncan was still living so I am getting a sense that the information that Duncan's father was born in Barr as was apparently his brother Duncan Livingston Jr. son of a Duncan Livingston and Catharine Livingston is quite likely taken from a first person source in this case Duncan the lawyer himself. If so and because a brother Duncan moved in with him from Morvern with his mother and other brother and because there is Duncan Livingston birth record that states the he was also like Angus born in Morvern just two years later that it is probably a foregone conclusion that the two brothers Angus and Donald were born in Barr, Morvern in 1808 and 1810. I totally buy that as being likely correct.

As for why an entry for Donald Livingston say Catherine Cameron and an entry for Duncan Livingston say Catharine or Catrine Livingston it may just be a rushed entry. May be that the minister was rushed in 1810 and forgot the maiden name of the mother was Cameron and just put down Livingston for both. And we know one important detail that the Duncan Livingston that settled in Scioto County Ohio with Angus, his brother John and his mother Catharine was his brother as indicated also in that 1903 short SCioto County, Ohio famous people bio that I rewrote into a postings a week or so ago. That has proved to a very helpful little article. Jewel Brown of Cape Breton Mull, Argyll Livingstone family I think originally located it back in 2008 and then Kyle I think has it in our forum gallery. It it very short but the significant details regarding early life and origins of Angus Livingston b. 1808 of Scioto are very interesting. Too bad they don't give his death date. I think his wife Margaret died in 1880. She is in the 1880 U.S. Census though I think living with her brother in laws Duncan and Angus so it must have been later in the year. Too many Duncans in the Scioto County Livingston family I am afraid. I am sure I am confusing people already with them all. Anyways those are might thoughts on lawyer Duncan Livingston's grandmother Catherine b.1775/6 and my struggle to determine with 100 percent whether or she was a Cameron or a Livingston before marriage and also whether or not Betty Livingston's husband Donald Livingston 1805/6-1877 who died in Lochaline was in fact a son of this Catharine widow of a Duncan LIvinston according to old gravestone in Ohio.

regards,

Donald
Maverick1975
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Location: Aabybro, Denmark but from Texas and Indiana originally

Re: Which Donald Livingston left Morvern, Argyll in 1851?

Post by Maverick1975 »

Donald,

I think that it make sense that if Duncan called Anna his cousin in the letter that Steve provided that most likely they were first cousins. I'm assuming they were close because he chose to write her a letter. Of course, until I can find written documentation there is nothing to back up my belief that Hugh and Duncan's father were probably brothers. I also think there may be a great chance that the Donald that accompanied Effie and the kids was Betty's Donald. There is a possibility that he accompanied them and then also visited the rest of his family. I make the logical assumption that Duncan wouldn't have called Betty "Aunt" if she was not Anna's aunt. He would have just referred to her as Betty. But just my thoughts. Again, until I find documentation to prove any of what I just wrote, it's all just theory and speculation.

I would like to find more Livingston cousins. Steve's grandfather, Samuel, had two siblings. (Steve, that is correct right?) And of course I need to track down Hugh Jr's kids. He died and his wife remarried and moved to Nebraska with the new husband, his kids and the kids she had with Hugh Jr. So there are more cousins out there to find. Maybe if I can find them someone has a family bible, or more letters or something. But it might take me awhile. I'm currently working on my Ph.D. at the local law school and that takes up a lot of my time. Even free time.


Kristen :D
Canadian Livingstone
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Which Donald Livingston left Morvern, Argyll in 1851?

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Kristen,

Yes I also am wondering if Aunt Betty's husband Donald Livingston 1806-1877 was the one who went with them. I wonder why he and Betty and their family did not just decide to go with them in 1851. I guess will never know but your notion makes sense because there does seem to be any other Donald residing in Morvern who would have gone with them I think and was around that age of 44 except the Donald that lived at Achbeg in 1851. Both he and Effy are recorded in the 1851 census because they probably left for America just after the census was taken apparently. So that is not a problem. Widower Effy did not want to go on her own with only her children so clearly Donald (if I am correct her brother in law) wanted to make certain she got to America where her other brother in law Angus Livingston, Duncan Livingston Jr. and John Livingston were residing. And if I correct about this family grouping where the widow Catharine Livingston b. 1775 mother of Angus, Duncan, and John Livingston of Scioto County, Ohio was living with her son in Vernon Township, Scioto County, Ohio according to the 1851 Scioto County, Census. Your absolutely correct there is no documented proof of this just a few clues that the Livingstons that settled at Scioto County and neighbouring Lawrence County are one family as I am suspecting. So the old lady Catharine Livingston who lived with Angus, his brother Duncan Livingston Jr. John, Angus Livingston's wife Margaret and young Duncan the future lawyer and family historian would have Effy's mother in law and the Donald who accompanied Effy and her children Aunt Betty's husband as you suggeste and I suspect Effy's brother in law possibly. That 1903 bio of Lawyer Duncan Livingston of Scioto County, Ohio does shed some light on the fact on Duncan's father and mother origins, went they arrived in Ohio and that Duncan's father Angus was born in Barr Morvern and the date which you will note is one of many birth record missing from the Morvern Parish records for that family of which Angus was apart. Unfortunately the 1903 article does not discuss Angus Livingston's parents just that his mother Catharine his brother Duncan Livingston born abt. 1810 and another brother John joined Angus in Ohio in the 1840's from Morvern. But was there any proof that Catharine' s husband was a Duncan Livingston. The 1903 article did not tell us that but a search for Catharines Tombstone in Scioto County was successful and I had some luck with that as the stone stated Catharine Livingston wife of Duncan. And there were two interesting surviving birth records in the Morvern Parish book which seemed to me to be connected to this family. One for a Duncan Livingston born in 1810 born at Barr, Morvern to Duncan and Catharine Livingston. In the 1841 Morvern Census Duncan Livingston agricultural worker at Achabegg is listed as age 30 with his mother Catharine Livingston age 65 so I am pretty sure this is this Duncan mentioned in that one surviving birth record. What I picked up on also right away was that this birth of this Duncan took place in 1810 in Barr, Morvern and the 1903 Ohio article stated that lawyer Duncan Livingstons father Angus Livingston was born in 1808 also in Barr, Morvern. So logic told me that the Duncan in the Morvern birth records had to Angus Livingston's brother. We also have a surviving birth record which I pretty certain also pertains to this Livingston family that Donald Livingston was born abt. 1805 or 1806 the son of Duncan Livingston and Catharine Cameron according to the old surviving Morvern Parish book.

So while these clues regarding the family of lawyer Duncan Livingston's father Angus I think are pointing me in this direction as you can see after all that I then had to somehow show how Hugh Livingston and Effy connected with this family. While there is no family bio from 1903 on them to work with what I have tried to do with whatever clues that I think are there including the 1899 letter to try and put together a scenario in which Hugh Livingston was a brother of John b. ? Donald b. 1805 or 1806, Angus b. 1808, Duncan born 1810. Neither Angus nor your Hugh is listed in the Morvern Parish records as brothers so there in no way I state this a fact except in the case of Angus where although no recorded in old Morvern parish birth records, his son's 1903 bio states with a date of 1808 that the father Angus was indeed born in Morvern. So if Angus Livingston's birth record was missing that might explain why Hugh Livingston's birth record is also missing from the surviving parish records of the early 1800's. This is unfortunate because that fact has made linking your ancestor to the family of Duncan Livingston and Catharine Cameron that I have pieced together trying to link your Hugh Livingston to it more of a challenge. A lot of Livington family research with families in Argyllshire in the 1800's depends on what we find in the parish records or census records. If you can't find them in the Parish records or Census records you really do run into difficulties to be sure. Thank goodness that at least Hugh shows up in the 1841 Census and the most of the birth records of Hugh and Effy's children survive in the Morvern Parish records. And how fortunate it was for you that you found that 1851 passenger list showing that Effy and her children had left for America in 1851. Maybe not all the pieces can be found but at least we have some of them to work with regarding this family.

I suspect the Donald Livingston that accompanied Effy was likely 44 going on to 45 and regardless was quite possibly the Donald Livingston who I suspect was Effy's brother in law Donald who was married to your great Aunt Betty if there any chance these theories about the family connections between your family, Duncan's and Aunt Betty's are at all plausible. I wrote out the 1912 obituary for Aunt Betty in one of my recent forum posts to you and Stephen and in it most interestingly the writer of the obituary tells the readers that Betty stated that her late husband Donald Livingston was the great grandson of a brother of the famous Donald Livingston. I think it more likely he was a grandson of Donald LIvingstone's brother Hugh of Savary but regardless I think Betty who heard it from her husband was correct regarding the ancestral connection to Donald Livingstone's surviving brother who I know from my research was Hugh Livingston of Savary, Morvern. So another wonderful clue that showed up in that 1912 obituary of your Aunt Betty. A gentleman who lives in Scotland whose wife is related to Livingstons and other Morvern families has over the years sent me photos from Kiel Cemetery and some research information regarding Morvern Livingstons including that 1912 obituary which kept in my old computer and found again last year. All of these clues from the sources I have mentioned have really helped to get a sense I think of how your own Livingston family and Stephens connects to this Hugh Livingston of Savary and his famous brother Donald of Savary.


regards,

Donald
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