Donald Livingstone

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wdlivingstone
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:48 am

Re: Donald Livingstone

Post by wdlivingstone »

Donald,

Your continuing research of Donald Livingstone is greatly appreciated. I would like to include a reference in my description of family members. What database did you consult to find the details on Donald's children?

I would like to read more about life on Mull. Are you aware of any references that might be available?

Again, thanks for sharing your research and expertise.

Best regards,

Bill
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Donald Livingstone

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Bill,

Well I am in the process of searching descendants of some old Mull and Morvern families that settled in Canada, the U.S. Australia and New Zealand linking them to the old Mull and Morvern parish records if can be found for their Livingston ancestors. The parish record info are available through a site called Scotlands People but it very pricey but on the other hand the cost to me I consider worth as it helped greatest to move my Livingston research project way beyond what I thought was possible in 10 yrs. Combining what I have learned from descendants connected to Livingston families found in the old Argyllshire parish records and with a number of those old Mull and Morvern families participating in our clan society DNA project it seems apparent that many of these old Mull families throughout Mull and in neighbouring Morvern shared a common Maclea Livingston ancestor. A lot of Mull Livingston families in particular settled in Eastern Canada in Cape Breton and elsewhere in Nova Scotia and nearby Prince Edward Island and our Clan Society DNA Project has been met with great enthusiasm with some Livingstons of some of those old Livingston families that settled in those two provinces in the early 1800's. Things are going very well with that and hoping that we can do some testing if a few more Nova Scotia Livingston families are closely related to one another back in 18th and early 19th century Scotland before they came to Canada.

I will see what I come up with in terms of a good book on Mull. I bought one a while back and was disappointed with it as spent far to much time talking the absentee land owners. I am more interested in the former tenant farmers and how they lived what their lives were like than absentee land owners some of whom were responsible for evicting many of our clan folk from Mull and Morvern amongst other places in Argyllshire in the 1800's.

Here are some photos of Crogran which Donald lived near I think and is mentioned in his records. He was actually born apparently and his siblings at a place called Drumnatyne in the Kilochspelvie somewhere. I get the sense it might be very near this Crogran, Kinlochspelvie village mentioned in some of Donald's records you will notice. Crogran is beside Loch Shelve and as you can see being by the water and with scenery in the distance it is quite picturesque. No doubt this view has not changed all that much since your ancestor Donald Livingston last gazed at it probably from that same beach in the 19th century. If I find anything else of interest regarding Crogan, Drumnatyne and Kilochspelvie Parish in general I will let you know. And I will be on the lookout for a good history of Mull.

regards,

Donald

http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/m ... index.html
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Donald Livingstone

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Bill,

Ok this Drimnatyne where the old Torosay and Kinlochspelvie Parish records state Donald was living at in 1828 and where his parents lived at the time of their 1821 marriage (Neil or Niel Livingston and Mary Maclaine or Mclean in the parish records is in the Croggan area. In old Kiel Cemetery in Morvern Parish, Argyll where my livingston family came from there is a clue to a possible Drimnatyne and Croggan proximity to one another alluded in this old cemetery inscription which states:

"In Loving Memory of Margaret Livingston who died at Drimnatyne, Croggan 8 January 1932 aged 86 years; also her son Duncan Livingston who died at Drimnatyne 25 November 1934 aged 52 years."

So I think that answered my question where this settlement of Drimnatyne must have been in connection with this Croggan village which I think you have noticed is mentioned in some info of Donald Livingston and his family back in the days he was living in Kinlochspelvie Parish , Argyll. The above gravestone is the only clue I have found to link the two places but it is clear from that Drimnatyne must have in close proximity to this Croggan village on Loch Shelve also mentioned your ancestor Donald LIvingston's family records I have located. I am sure some locals probably know precisely where the site of this Drimnatyne was or is today.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Donald Livingstone

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Bill,

The interesting thing for you to aware of is that Donald Livingston left for Canada in 1878 and his wife Euphemia and the children joined him in 1881. The 1881 Scottish census indicates this as Euphemia Livingston by herself is listed as living in Oban, Argyll with a son Duncan age 12 and the daughter Jane age 6. These are children born to Donald and his second wife Euphemia Mcdougall.

Then in the 1891 Census in Canada for the N.W.Territories Assinaboia East Broadview (Later Province of Saskatchewan)
Donald Livingston age 70
Euphemie Livingston age 60
John Livingston age 26
Alexander Livingston age 24
Jane Livingston age 16


Then 1901 Census (Saskatchewan) Donald Livingston 81
Euphemia McDougall Livingstone age 77
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Donald Livingstone

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Bill,

Known Children of your ancestor Donald Livingston (Birth Entries Kinlochspelvie Parish, Argyllshire, Scotland)

With Euphemia McAlpine
married July 14, 1857 Lochbuy, Kinlochspelvie Parish, Argyll
1. Betsy Livingston b.March 29, 1858 d. Nov 17, 1858
2. Neil Livingston b. Oct. 17, 1861 Drimnatyne
3.John Livingston b. May 17, 1863 Drimnatyne
4.Alexander Livingston b. March 30, 1865 Croggan Village
(Euphemia McAlpine died August 28,, 1866 Croggan Village)

With Euphemia McDougall
married April 20, 1868 Greenock, Renfrewshire

1.Duncan Livingston b. April 11, 1869 Croggan Village

2. Jane Livingston b.April 12,1875 Croggan Village
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Donald Livingstone

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Bill,

Just so you know.

Your ancestor Euphemia McAlpine Wife no. 1 of Donald Livingston died August 28, 1866 in Croggan Village, Kinlochspelvie Parish, Argyll

Donald Livingston then married his second wife Euphemia McDougall on April 20, 1868 at Greenock, Renfrewshire

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Donald Livingstone

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Bill,

1. Donald Livingston of Drimnatyne, Kinlochspelvie Parish, Argyll age 29 son of Neil Livingston and Mary Maclaine and Euphemia McAlpine age 24 of Lochbuy, Kinlochspelvie Parish daughter of John McAlpine and Betsy McTavish, Argyll married July 14, 1857 Kinlochspelvie Parish, Argyll

2. Euphemia Livingston daughter John McAlpine and Betsy McTavish, wife of Donald Livingston died August 28, 1866 Croggan Village, Kinlochspelvie Parish, Argyll

3.Donald Livingston widower age 38 of Croggan, Kinlochspelvie Parish, Arygll son of Neil Livingston and Mary Mclean and Euphemia McDougall age 34 of Greenock, Renfrewshire daughter of Alexander McDougall and Jane McGregor married April 20, 1868 East Greenock Parish, Renfrewshire
wdlivingstone
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:48 am

Re: Donald Livingstone

Post by wdlivingstone »

Donald,

Thanks for the new batch of information.
All the details about Donald Livingstone's life in Scotland and Canada appear correct. I'm still not convinced he was born sometime near 1830.
I have a notice about Donald's death that reads: Died at Yorkton, Saskatdhewan, Thursday May 5, 1921, Donald Livingstone, age 103 years, 4 months, the funeral, Presbyterian Church, Swan River, May 7, 1921.
Additionally, the 1991 Canadian Census lists Donald's age as 70, and the 1901 Canadian Census lists Donald's age as 81.
The three documents all support the date of birth for Donald as 1818. And there is a listing for a Donald Livingstone born in this year.
The 1891 Canadian Census lists Euphemia's age as 60, and the 1901 Canadian Census states she was born in 1923 and was 77 years old.
All these documents give evidence that Donald was born in 1818 and Euphemia was born in 1923. Maybe Donald misstated his age and was born at a later date. But it seems unlikely that Donald and Euphemia would both provide wrong information on their ages in two Canadian Censuses.

Do you know if the Donald Livingstone who was born near 1830 had any siblings? If so it may be possible to trace them and find a document listing their parents. The same for Donald of 1818 and what his possible siblings Duncan and Mary.
I appreciate your continuing interest in resolving the conflicting information and finding the parents of Donald Livingstone.

Best regards,

Bill
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Donald Livingstone

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Bill,

Yes I must admit I can't explain that strange age difference but as you can see I have tried to work around it and utilized all of the many surviving documents pertaining to the Donald Livingston that settled in Saskatchewan. I am not strong in mathematics and avoided statistics in University, but I would say if you the feed all the info I have acquired on Donald into a computer I think the statistical odds would be about a million to one that your Donald Livingston is not this Donald Livingston who left Croggan, Kinlochspelvie Parish, Mull in 1878 and was a few year later 1881 joined by his wife . HIs family situation back in Scotland is extremely well documented and it you at all the detail I have unearthed regarding Donald and his family in both Scotland and subsequently it is pretty much a near perfect match except of course as you state the approximate birth year derived from the Canadian records is different. I should emphasize that I see some great variances in ages given between different census records and parish records for other Livingstons I have researched and while I agree it is odd I very rarely find census records that match perfectly with another. Sometimes they do sometimes they don't. But that all being said it is strange that we are dealing with a 10 year difference. His birth or baptismal record from Drimnatyne, Kinlochspelvie was 1828 actually. I realize the number problem is difficult to accept but the research I think provides one with plenty of info leaving one to conclude that this in fact your Donald and his second wife Euphemia McDougall Livingston from Croggran. If you have looked over every single document I have sent you regarding your ancestor I think the information is pretty much supports the notion that this is your ancestor. It is virtually impossible for there to be two Alexander Livingstons that married an Euphemia McAlpine McDougall and then a Euphemia McDougall and then shows up in Saskatchewan with a wife referring to herself in the 1901 Census not as Euphemia Livingston but Euphemia McDougall Livingston. I don't think any Livingston I have researched over the years has left so many records behind to work with.

In answer to your question these are the surviving birthrecords of the children of Neil Livingston and Mary McLean. There may have been a few more children and their records are missing but here are the ones that did survive:

Neil/Niel Livingston and Mary Mclaine/Mclean of Drimnatyne, Torosay and Kilochsplelvie Parish
married Feb 2, 1821
Known Children
1. Catharine Livingston born February 14, 1822 Drimnatyne
2. Janet Livingston born November 1, 1823 Drimnatyne
3. Duncan Livingston born October 3, 1825 Drimnatyne
4. Donald Livingston born January 1, 1828 Drimnatyne

I am sorry to say but that is what the records are stating regarding your ancestor Donald Livingston who settled in what later became the Province of Saskatchewan. Why he was recorded as being 10 years older in the Canadian records I have no idea but after looking over the virtual treasure of detailed records of Donald and his family in Kinlochspelvie Parish, Mull I have no reason to believe this could be the wrong Donald. He went first to Canada. 1878 according to his 1901 Canadian census info and sure enough in the 1881 Census his wife Euphemia McDougall Livingston you will notice is recorded in the 1881 Census at Oban, Argyll with her sons Duncan b. 1869 and Jane born 1875 and noticeably with her husband Donald and the children from his first marriage including Alexander. The clues are in everything I found if you go through all the forum postings I believe. Euphemia McDougall Livingston even stated in the 1901 Census from her Saskatchewan that she left in 1881 for Canada about three years after her husband Donald which the 1881 Scottish Census info for Euphemia Livingston proves with her children with Alexander with her who were as mentioned Duncan born 1869 and Jane born 1875.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Donald Livingstone

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Bill,
All the surviving children of your Donald Livingston can be accounted for in Canada. Betsy Livingston b. 1858 the eldest died later that year in 1858 In Kinochspelvie Parish and another daughter Mary born in 1860 also to Donald and his first wife Euphemia McALpine died Sept 8, 1870 in Croggan before the family went to Canada.
In the 1891 Census John, your ancestor Alexander and the youngest child Jane are all censused with your Alexander and his second wife Euphemie McDougall Livingston.
Check the 1891 census with information on Donald Livington's children in Scotland.
1891 Census Assinaboia East (Later Saskatchewan)
These ages are incorrect except for Jane but John is the oldest then Alexander and finally Jane so that much is correct.
Donald Livingston age 70
Euphemie Livington age 60
John Livingston age 26 (son of Euphemie McAlpine Livingston)
Alexander Livingston age 24 (son of Euphemie McAlpine Livingston)
Jane Livingston age 16 (daughter of Euphemie McDougall Livington)

Then the other child born to the second wife Euphemie Mcdougall who is missing in the 1891 Census info appears in the 1901 Census next door in Manitoba and his Canadian census info states that Duncan Livingston was born on April 11, 1869 that is a perfect match with Duncan Livingston born April 11, 1869 in the Kinlochspelvie records born to Duncan Livingston and Euphemie McDougall.

So your ancestor Donald Livington had a total of six children in Kinlochspelvie Parish
Four of them I have found in the Canadian records 3 in 1891 with your Donald and his second wife Euphemie McDougall and a fourth living in Manitoba recorded in the 1901 Census.
Not Betsy the eldest born 1858 died in 1858 in Kinlochspelvie Parish
Not Mary Feb. 20, 1860 born at Drimnatyne died, Sept 8 1870 in Croggan, Kinlochspelvie Parish

Neil Livington b. 1861 the eldest son settled in 1880 in Assinboea East (Saskatchewan and is in 1901 Census there
John born 1863 (John in 1891 Census with father Donald in Sask.)
Alexander born 1865 (Alexander in 1891 Census with father Donald in Sask)
Jane born 1875 ( Jane age 16 in 1891 Census with father Donald in Sask)
Duncan born 1869 (Living in neighbouring province of Manitoba in the 1901 Census birth date given in Canadian 1901 Census April 11, 1869 perfect match for Duncan Livingston born April 11, 1869
son of Donald Livingston and second wife Euphemie McDougall
born April 11, 1869 according to the Kilochspelvie Parish, Argyll Scotland records

So all children of Donald except Betsy that died in 1858 in Scotland and Mary that died in 1870 can be found in the 1891 or 1901 Saskatchewan or neighbouring Manitoba records.
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