Donald Livingstone

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Donald Livingstone

Postby wdlivingstone » Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:07 pm

A Donald Livingstone was born in Kilninian and Kilmore in 1818 and died at age 103 in 1921. According to "Scotland Marriages 1561-1910" database, Donald's father was Alexander Livingstone and his wife's name was "Christy McLucash." I can locate details of Donald's family and life (he was my great, great grandfather), but cannot locate Alexander's parents. Any suggestions? Thanks. Bill Livingstone
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Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby wdlivingstone » Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:19 pm

Thank you very much for your assistance.
Regarding your question about Alexander Livingston and Christy McLucash after their marriage and giving birth to Donald Livingtone in 1818, I have yet to retrieve any information.
Donald Livingstone is included in the 1851 Scotland Census (registration district - Middle Ward, in Lanarkshire).
A Donald Livingstone married Euphemia McAlpin on July 14, 1857, in Kinlochspelvie, Argyll, Scotland (no age is given on Donald's age, however a later death certificate lists McAlpin as the mother of Alexander Livingstone, who was my great grandfather.)
It appears Donald Livingstone married a second time Euphemia McDougall on Apri 20, 1868, in Greenock Old Or West, Renfrew, Scotland (the age listed correlates to his date of birth in 1818).
Two other data points. A family letter makes reference to Donald's house on the Isle of Mull. In 1881, Donald immigrated to Canada (Are there events during this time that would encourage Donald and his family to leave Scotland?)

Would there be information about the family at locations linked to Donald's addresses?

Again, thank you for sharing your expertise about available information and your research.

Best regards,

Bill Livingstone
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Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby wdlivingstone » Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:54 pm

Another data point on an Alexander Livingstone.

The 1841 Scottish Census lists an "Alexander Livingstone," then age 55. His birth is "estimated" to be 1786. His birthplace was Argyllshire, parish "Monvern," county "Argyllshire." (He would have been about 31 if he had married Christy McLucash.)

This is a different parish than the "Alexander Levingston" baptized on March 7, 1790. Would there be details about this Alexander in this parish? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Again, thanks for all your assistance.

Best regards,

Bill Livingstone
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Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:43 pm

Hi Bill,
Having read your last message I have come to the conclusion that I going in the wrong direction regarding Alexander Livingston and Christy Lucash being the parents of your ancestor Donald Livingston born abt 1818 given the known McAlpin connection and the other more recent family info you mention in this info below. So I am going in a completely different research direction.


"A Donald Livingstone married Euphemia McAlpin on July 14, 1857, in Kinlochspelvie, Argyll, Scotland (no age is given on Donald's age, however a later death certificate lists McAlpin as the mother of Alexander Livingstone, who was my great grandfather.)
It appears Donald Livingstone married a second time Euphemia McDougall on Apri 20, 1868, in Greenock Old Or West, Renfrew, Scotland (the age listed correlates to his date of birth in 1818).
Two other data points. A family letter makes reference to Donald's house on the Isle of Mull. In 1881, Donald immigrated to Canada (Are there events during this time that would encourage Donald and his family to leave Scotland?)"
[/i]

So from your family clues Donald definitely lived in Mull and there is significant clue that one of his wives was probably a McAlpin and that Donald later emigrated to Canada. I will check that out if you have more info on Donald later on in Canada or wherever else please pass that on to me as I also do Canadian and American Livington research.

I took a look at that 1857 marriage of a Donald Livingston and it does state that his age is 29 at the time that marriage which make him possibly born abt. 1828. Most importantly it states that his parents were Neil Livingston farmer and Mary Maclaine or McLean something I wish I had focused on before undergoing an extensive research of your Donald as a probable son of Alexander Livingston and Christy McLucash of Kilninian Parish. I don't know whether or not you had any luck finding Neil Livingston and Mary Mclaine or Mclean in the surviving Argyllshire records but that does not mean that they were not the parents of your ancestors just that like in many cases birth records regarding some or all of their children may be missing and they not be recorded or died before the 1841 Census. I not looked for Neil and Mary Livingston in the Argyllshire records, so I really don't anything about them at this point but that information from your ancestor Donald Livingston's 1857 marriage I think definitely tells us that Donald was a son of this Neil Livingston and Mary Mclaine and not Alexander Livingston and Christy McLucash of Ensay and Treshnish, Kilninian Parish, Mull. Not a big deal as I am researching Kilninian Parish families for my own genealogy project for the Clan society DNA project so info on the Donald Livingston and Janet Campbell family including sons Alexander and Duncan is all useful to my own research for the Clan Society DNA testing project.

Looking at the Torosay and Kinlochspelvie, Mull parish records there is information that Neil Livingston and Mary MCLean's son Donald was baptized on january 1, 1828 so that must be the Donald Livingston who married Euphemia McAlpin June 14, 1857 in Kinlochspelvie Parish, Argyll. I assume then if this infact your Donald Livingston and we have it right this time then you may want to consider rechecking the later records for your Donald if any slightly before his death in 1921 and see if there is any slightly earlier census records in the late 1800's and early twentieth century that show him as being born around 1828 rather than 1818. The fact that you were told of the McAlpin connection is leading me to think that this must be your Donald but I am now more cautious in that assumption given my previous efforts to connect your Donald with the family of Alexander Livingston and Christy Mclucash. If you could tell me where Donald died in 1921 and was living around that time and in the years before I might be able help verify whether or not this Donald who married Euphemia McAlpin in 1857 is your ancestor.

In conclusion this Donald Livington that married Euphemia McAlpin was living at Drimnatyne? in Kinlochspelvie Parish, Mull at the time of his 1857 marriage. His parents according to his marriage record were Neil Livingston and Mary Mclaine or Mclean. Donald was born or baptized on January 1, 1828 parents recorded as Neil Livingston and Mary Mclean of Drimnatyne, Kinlochspelvie Parish, Mull. Neil Livingston and Mary Maclaine of Drimnatyne were married Feb. 2, 1821 according to the Kinlochspelvie Parish records. I don't know that I have the spelling correctly for Drimnatyne so I will check that out next and then see if I can find your Donald in the Canadian records. The only problem with this Donald Livingston is that he appears to have been born or baptized in 1828. Is there any possibility I wonder if the 1818 birth date info I assume you got from his 1921 death record could be an error. We know your ancestor was a Donald Livingston and lived in Mull and that there was a McAlpin family connection. I really feel this is the Mull Donald Livingston you may be looking for. More later.

Ok lets put the above info to the side for the moment. I see the 1901 Canadian Census with Donald Livingstone with Donald Livingstone born December 25, 1819 in Scotland age 81 residing in Saskatchewan Nut lake district with wife Euphemia MCdougall Livingstone. In the previous 1891 Census they are in Assinaboia East in the Territories before they became Saskatchewan at Broadview subdistrict Archibald Livingston age 70, Euphemia age 60 Alexander age 24 Jane age 16 and John age 26 Ok so this is the Donald that married Euphemia McDougall in 1868. I need to have some breakfast but I am going to take a look at that 1868 marriage record in Scotland. I am hoping I can sort the confusion in my mind with that record and get back to you.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:01 pm

Hi Bill,

Ok a study of the 1901 Saskatchewan canada census and the early 1891 Census proved very helpful. I see Alexander Livingston and his wife Euphemia McDougall Livingston and in the 1891 Census their son Alexander who I assume is the great-grandfather Alexander you speak of. The 1868 Greenock Renfrewshire marriage record confirms that a widower Alexander Livingston age 38 of Crogran, Kinlochspelvie Parish, Mull Parents sure enough Neil Livingston and Mary McLean or Mclaine of Kinlochspelvie Parish, married another Euphemia this time Euphemia McDougall of Greenock Renfrewshire daughter of Alexander McDougall and Jane McGregor. The only puzzling thing is that in this record Alexander Livingston's birth date would be around 1830. As mentioned though I would rather not get to confused by the birth or baptism dates here in the records as I do believe this is the same couple Alexander Livingston and Euphemia McDougall Livingston who are residing in Saskatchewan Canada in 1901 and according to the census of that year settled in Canada in the year 1878. Having looked at your ancestral info from this info I would say it pretty certain your ancestor Alexander Livingston may actually have been born in 1828 to parents Neil Livingston and Mary Mclean or Maclaine of Kinlochspelvie, Mull, Argyll. It is clear that the Alexander Livingston widower of Kinlochspelvie is the same Alexander Livingston who married Euphemia McAlpin in the 1850's thus your relative stating that they thought they was a McAlpin connection to Alexander which would be the case if both Alexander had married a Euphemia McAlpin and later a Euphemia Mcdougall and then later settled in the territories later Saskatchewan Canada with here in 1878 as indicated in the Sask. canada census of 1901. So I think your ancestor was definitely as you say from Mull and the info from both marriage records leads to the understanding that he was from Kinlochspelvie Parish in Mull. We still have the issue of 1828 or 1818 to contend with, but that with standing I think it hard to dispute that those two marriage records you found pertain to your Alexander who seems to have born or baptized in Kinlochspelvie Parish Mull and the son not of Alexander Livingston and Christy Mclucash of Ensay, Mull but of Neil Livington and Mary Mclaine or Mclean of Drimnatyne Kinlochspelvie.

So if your great grandfather Alexander was the son of this Donald Livingston who lived In Saskatchewan in the year 1901 who was married to a Euphemia Mcdougall according to that 1901 census then all of the above info should pertain to your family. Drimnatyne is where Neil Livingston and Mary Mclean were living in Kinlochspelvie at the time of Donald''s birth or baptism in 1828. I suspect the 1818 or the 1819 in the 1901 census is incorrect but whether it is or isn't the important thing is that there are two marriage records supporting the notion that Alexander was a son of this Neil Livingston and Mary McLean and his age in both marriage records interestingly supports the notion that he could actually be born closer to the year 1828 than 1818. Anyways I am happy that at least I am looking in the right direction regarding this Saskatchewan family that appears to be your family with Donald, Euphemia McDougall and Donald's son Alexander. So interestingly if son Alexander was born abt. 1867 or around that year then he would definitely be the son of Euphemia McAlpine. Hence the memory in your family of a "McAlpine connection.

I looked at both the 1857 and 1868 marriage record this morning and the 1868 marriage actually lists your ancestor Donald Livingstone as age 38 which would make him born abt. 1830 rather than 1818 but in line with the 1857 marriage record were Donald Livingston was listed as age 29 which make his approximate birth date of about 1828 which is a perfect match to the 1828 birth or baptism date in the Kinlochspelvie Parish record of Donald Livingston son of a Neil Livingston and Mary McLean whose names appear in both 1857 and 1868 marriage records.


regards,

Donald
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Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby wdlivingstone » Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:30 pm

Donald,

Much thanks for all your effort to locate heirs of Donald Livingstone.

Do you know if records were kept of Mull citizens who owned property. Donald Livingstone at one time owned a house.

Are there newspapers from the mid-1800s or earlier that were printed in Mull?

Again, thanks for your help. I'll forward a detailed overview of Donald's life in Canada and his son Alexander's family.

Best regards,

Bill
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Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:48 pm

Hi Bill,

No I don't know of the Mull Community in the mid 1800's having a newspaper. Mull Livingstons were mainly poor tenants crofters mainly agricultural labourers. No large population centre. Tobermory would have been largest settlement near where your Livingston ancestors lived. Your not likely to find that your ancestor owned land or property on Mull. He would have a been tenant living in a croft. The only Livingstons in Argyllshire that owned land in the 1800's an before that in Western Argyllshire were the Bachuil Livingstones on the Isle of Lismore who owned several acres. Livingston's on Mull paid rent to landlords I am sorry to say and did not own their property during the time your Livingstons resided in Kinlochspelvie Parish. I don't know of a list of tenants of Kinlochspelvie Parish before the 1841 Census but some might be recorded in the 1779 Argyll census. It just lists tenant householders and not names of individuals members of the households generally speaking so it not all that helpful. It includes some Mull residents at that time and might include some that lived in Kinlochspelvie. I don't have access to it now but a long time ago I got a microfilm on loan from the L.D.S family history library sent to my library and I looked at the Morvern Livingstons and saw few Ross of Mull Livingstons included but did not pay too much attention to the Mull Livingstons included in the 1779 Argyll census as I was not researching them at that time. I am descended from Morvern Livingstons apparently, but Mull and Morvern adjacent to one other and no doubt both share some sort of common Livingston ancestor if you go back a few centuries or more. Our DNA project we have had going since about 2005 is indicating ancestral linkage between Mull and neighbouring Mull Livingstons descendants from around the world that have been tested.


Here are some birth records for both families of Donald Livington and Euphemia McAlpine and Donald Livingston and Euphemia McDougall that may help clarify the situation with Alexander having family with Euphemia McAlpine and with Euphemia McDougall No doubt this will confuse family researchers for generations.

Donald Livingston and Euphemia McAlpine of Kinlochspelvie Parish, Argyll
married July 14, 1857 Lochbuy, Kinlochspelvie Parish, Argyll
Neil Livingston born Oct. 17 1861 Drimnatyne Kinlochspelvie Parish, Argyll
John Livingston born May 7, 1863 Drimnatyne
Alexander Livingston born March 30,1865 Croggan Village

Donald Livingston and Euphemia McDougall of Kinlochspelvie Parish, Argyll
married April 20, 1868 Greenock, Renfrewshire
Duncan Livingston born April 11, 1869 Croggan Village Kinlochspelvie Parish, Argyll
Jane Livingston born April 12, 1875 Croggan Village
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:13 am

HI Bill,

This is the earlier family info connected to Donald's parent's Neil/Niel Livingston and Mary Mclaine/Mclean of Drimnatyne, Torosay and Kilochspelvie Parish. After the year 1842 Kilochspelvie became it own separate parish.

Neil/Niel Livingston and Mary Mclaine/Mclean of Drimnatyne, Torosay and Kilochsplelvie Parish
married Feb 2, 1821

Known Children and their birth records
1. Catharine Livingston b. February 14, 1822 Drimnatyne
2. Janet Livingston b. November 1, 1823 Drimnatyne
3. Duncan Livingston b. October 3, 1825 Drimnatyne
4. Donald Livingston b. January 1, 1828 Drimnatyne
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Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:26 am

Hi Bill,

The 1901 Canadian Census includes one helpful detail. It includes the year that Donald and family came to Canada. The year is recorded in the census as 1878. There might be a surviving passenger list of a ship that sailed that year with Scottish immigrants to Canada.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:09 pm

Hi Bill,

The farther back the Torosay and Kilspelvie Parish records go back is the 1770's and I have not noticed Neil Livingston of Drimnatyne near Crogran, Kilochspelvie with a baptism or birth record. All there is a 1821 marriage record indicating he was from Drimnatyne and baptisms in the 1820's indicating that all of his children including son Donald were apparently born at Neil's croft in Drumntyne apparently near Crogran. Drumntyne is no map that I found so far with in the Kilochspelvie area of South Eastern Mull. Most of the Mull maps which include the Kilochspelvie area where your ancestors lived do include the location of kilochspelvie and Crogan which must be near Drumnatyne and it was Drumnatyne and nearby Crogran where your Donald Livingston apparently lived before he settled with his second wife Euphemia McDougall and his kids in 1878 according to his 1901 Canadian Census info.

I am going to try and find a good map of Mull somewhere and hopefully will be able eventually to locate Drumnatyne where your ancestor Donald Livingston was born on a map and were his father and mother and brothers and sisters lived. The best are all old 19th century ordnance survey map which are very detailed maps.

regards,

Donald
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