Donald Livingstone

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Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby wdlivingstone » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:17 pm

Donald,

Since I received information on Donald's parent's names (John and Mary), I've researched their location based on available records. The census for 1841, 1851, and 1861 listed house numbers where families lived. It appears only Livingstones lived in the area of Drimnatyne. I'm hope to find a survey or government that placed the listed house numbers to their geographical location. Any idea where this information might be obtained?

Happy New Year,

Bill
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Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:02 pm

Hi Bill,

I am not certain at the moment where you would find info on Livingston residence or residences croft or crofts at Drumnatain.
Drimnatain. There were actually a few families that lived in the first half of the 1800's at Drimnatain contrary to what you may have thought and actually other related LIvingstons besides your ancestor Neil Livingston including an apparently an elderly Uncle of Neil Livingstons living in an neighbouring croft at least in 1851. Later an Ordnance Survey done of Kilochspelvie Parish indicates that only one croft remains and some ruins suggesting that most or all of the tenants at Drimnatain were cleared by their landlord before 1868-1878 period. You may not be aware but census info suggests that Neil Livingston left Drimnatyne sometime between 1851 and 1861 but I don't know whether or not did so voluntarily or was cleared from the croft at Drimnatyne. Tomorrow I hope to take a closer look at the original 1861 Census and see if all Livingstons and other tenants were removed from Drimnatyne by 1861 and if anyone remained.

The proprietor of the property at Drimnatain was in the 1860's I found out a M. G. Maclaine ( Murdoch Gilean Maclaine 1845-1901) son of the 22th Mclaine of Lochbuie Donald Mclaine and this land was owned for centuries by the Maclaines of nearby Lochbuie. THeir ancient original ancestral home was Castle Moy and later they built and lived in Lochbuie House. For a good part of his life I suspect that Murdoch Gilean Mclaine was an absentee landlord not living in Kilochspelvie Parish but is see that by the later part of the 1800's he and his wife were residing in Kinlochspelvie Parish. Anyways this Drimnatain on which your Maclea/Livingstons resided on perhaps for some time, was likely for centuries held by the McLaines of Lochbuie. The 1851 census info for Angus Livingston age 88 who was a neighbour of your ancestor Neil and likely his elderly Uncle indicates that old Angus was actually born somewhere else apparently in Torosay other than Kinlochspelvie Parish, but the parish is not listed in the 1851 Census info on old Angus. So I think we can assume that he and his likely his brother Duncan Jr. your ancestor were born elsewhere in an unknown location in Torosay, Mull.

Good news. I think I have found quite a bit more on your Livingston family that I will slowly get around to explaining beginning in this message and the next couple of messages that will give you a better idea of just who was living at Drimnatain in the first half of the 1850's and will probably be a surprise to you.

Neil Livingston's census info

This is what I have for census info for Neil Livingston. He appears to have left the croft at Drimnatain sometime between 1851 and 1861.
1841 Census Kilochspelvie Parish, Torosay, Mull
Niel Levingston
Drimnatain
Niel Levingston age 45
Mary age 40
James age 15
Duncan age 12
Alex age 9
Robert age 5
Mary age 2

1851 Census Kilochspelvie Parish Torosay, Mull
Drimnatain
Nill Livingston 55 agricultural labourer born Kilochspelvie parish
Mary 53
Donald 23 (1828)
Alexander 18
Robert 14
Mary 11
Nill 8

1861 Census Kilochspelvie Parish, Torosay, Mull
Location: Castle Roy? (Should this read Castle Moy area?)
Neil Livingston age 65
Mary age 63
Alexander age 27
Neil age 17

1871 Census Kilochspelvie Parish, Torosay, Mull
Castle Roy? (Should this read Castle Moy area?)
Neil Livingston 78
Mary Livingston 76

1881 Census Kinlochspelvie Parish, Torosay, Mull
now residing in Croggan village no. 1
Neil Livingston widower age 88 retired farmer

Please note Other Livingstons however lived at Drimnatain prior to 1841 according to the Kinlochspelvie parish records that I assume are kin to Neil's father Duncan Livingston. You see these other Livingstons better if I show you the early parish records for the livingstons in the Drimnatain area in the early 1800's and late 1700's according to the Parish records.

In the late 1700's and early 1800's it appears that two brothers Duncan Livingston who was married to Catharine Mcdougall and Angus Livingston who was married to Mary McPhadden resided in Drimnatyne. The one brother Duncan Livingston your ancestor died apparently in Drimnatyne sometime before 1841 but his brother Angus born back in 1762 or 1763 lived a long life in Drimnatyne in the 1851Scottish census he is 88 years old retired agricultural labourer living with his son Angus Livingston Jr. at Drimnatyne. Old Angus Livingston Sr. born in 1762 or 1763 would then be I believe your ancestor Neil Livingston's Uncle also residing in Drimnatyne in 1851 according to the 1851. Old Angus Sr. then died a few years later in 1856 at the age of 94 according to his death record. The luck in finding that death record is that it lists his parents as farmer Duncan Livingston and his wife Sarah McPhadden. Thus as of today I believe I have found the name of the parents of both this Angus Livingston Sr. b. 1762 and his brother Duncan Livingston your ancestor and father of Neil Livingston. See below where I recorded the two apparent Livington brothers and their children as indicated in the parish records. It is clear from the parish records of their children that both your ancestor Duncan Livingston and his family and this Angus Livingston Sr and his family lived in the late 1700's and early 1800's in Drimnatyne and this apparent brother of Duncan who was apparently Angus Livingston Sr. of Drimnnatyne lived well into his nineties. I think I have taken your Livingston family back one more generation. More on that tomorrow.

Livingston Family no. 1 of Drimnatain circa early 1800's
Duncan Livingston b. 1760's? and Catharine Mcdougal of Drimnatyne,Killochspelvie Parish

1. Angus Livingston b. March 13, 1794 Drimnatyne
2. Niel Livingston born December 5, 1795 born at Drimnatyne,kinlochspelvie Parish, Mull
3. Mary Livingston b. March 17, 1798 Drimnatyne
also entries for a Duncan Livingston and Nelly Mcdougal could be the same family a Duncan Livingston and Catharine Mcdougal
John Livingston b. 18/01/1804 Drimnatyne
Alexander Livingston b. 13/05/1804 Drimnatyne

Son Neil's family later at Drimnatain croft in 1820's
Neil/Niel Livingston b. 1795 and Mary Mclaine/Mclean of Drimnatyne, Torosay and Kilochsplelvie Parish, Mul
married Feb 2, 1821
Known Children and their birth records
1. Catharine Livingston b. February 14, 1822 Drimnatyne
2. Janet Livingston b. November 1, 1823 Drimnatyne
3. Duncan Livingston b. October 3, 1825 Drimnatyne
4. Donald Livingston b. January 1, 1828 Drimnatyne


Livingston Family no. 2 of Drimnatyne, Kilochspelvie parish, Mull circa early 1800's
Angus Livingston b. 1762 d. March 16, 1856 Drimnatyne and Marrion Mcfadden or McPhadden

1. John Livingston 18/04/1797 Drimnatyne
2. Gilbert Livingston 23/05/1799 Drimnatyne
3. Mary Livingston 20/07/1801 Drimnatyne
3. Niel Livingston 10/11/1803 Drimnatyne
4.Margaret Livingston 03/07/1806 Drimnatyne
5. Anne Livingston 03/08/1812 Drimnatyne
6. Angus Livingston precise birth date unknown (elderly father lived with him and his wife Ann Mcdougal in Drimnatain)

John Livingston b. abt. 1786? and Mary Mcdougal of Drimnatyne[/b] (son of Angus?)
1. b. 28/11/1814 Drimnatyne
2. Allan Livingston b. 15/11/1815 Drimnatyne
3. Donald Livingston b. 19/12/1817 Drimnatyne




regards,

Donald
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Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:47 am

Hi Bill,
See my previous Forum message to you with an explanation on how I figured out Duncan Livingston Sr. and Sarah McPhadden as Duncan Livingston's most likely parents. I just had today some amazing luck. Glad a took a closer look at the Livingston records in Drimnatain.
This is I suspect your earliest ancestral line with the updated addition of Duncan Livingston Sr. and his wife Sarah McPhadden mentioned in your ancestor Neil Livingston's likely elderly Uncle Angus Livingston 1856 death record who died in 1856 in age 94.
(Looks you Livingston family has good genes. Your ancestor Donald Livingston also lived into his 90's.)

1. Duncan Livingston Sr. and Sarah McPhadden (no detailed info on them)

2. Duncan Livingston Jr. b.1760's? died bef. 1841 in Drimnatain? and Catharine Mcdougal of Drimnatain, Kinlochspelvie Parish, Torosay, Mull

3. Neil Livingston baptized Dec. 5, 1795 Drimnatain, Kinlochspelvie Parish, Torosay, Mull d. 1889 Crinan, Knapdale Parish, Argyll m. Feb. 2, 1821 Drimnatain, Torosay Mary Mclean b. 1798 d. Croggan, Kinlochspelvie Parish, Dec. 9, 1879

4. Donald Livingston baptized January 1, 1828 Drimnatain, Torosay died Sask. Canada 1921

regards,

Donald
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Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby wdlivingstone » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:04 am

Donald,

Thank you for your additional research on Neil/Donald Livingstone.

Given the information from the censuses, it would appear the families were crofters and moved regularly to work on different properties. It might be that tacksmen raised rents, forcing the family to move or other properties became available that were more profitable and they moved.

I came across a letter published in the Oban Times on October 13, 1894, about the Croggan/Drimnantain district fifty years earlier. The author stated that there were 11 crofters in Drimnantain in the mid-1800s. He said, "The township of Drimantain now can boarst of two crofters, formerly eleven. The two remaining have been removed from their old and pleasant habitation, and planted as near the sear shore as it was possible or safe to build a house."

Regarding the 1861 Census, it was managed by Scottish authorities, while the 1841 and 1851 censuses were organized by British authorities. Insufficient funds were allocated for the 1861 Census. It suffered many problems, with the likely consequence that many people may not have been recorded, especially in remote, isolated areas.

Best regards,

Bill
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Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:53 pm

Hi Bill,

Well what we needed to take your family one generation farther back essentially was a death record of your ancestor Duncan Livingston or a brother or a sister. I am fairly certain that this old gentleman Angus Livingston and neighbour of your family born in 1762 or 1763 according to his 1851 census infoand death record information is infact your ancestor Neil Livingston's Uncle and Neil's father's brother. Close inspection of the late 1700's and early 1800's parish records as you can see I have done proves that both Neil's father Duncan livingston and a Neil Livingston were neighbours and crofters it would seem in Drimnatain. So hence my hypothesis that your ancestor Duncan Livingston had a brother named Angus. No while your ancestor Duncan died before 1855 when detailed death information was officially registered and recorded by the government in Scotland that was not the case of his elderly brother who died in old age at the age of 94 in 1856 and you are incredibly lucky that he died after the year 1854 as in 1856 full detailed death entry was recorded of Angus Livingston who died in Drimnatain and it records the name of his parents as I knew it would and they were Duncan Livingston Sr. and Sarah McPhadden. As the informant was Angus Livingston's son John Livingston i think we can be assured that this information regarding the parents of old Angus Livingston is likely accurate. The 1851 Census indicates that old Angus was 88 in 1851 and his death record indicates that he was 94 in 1856 so I estimate his birth was way back in 1762 or 1763 at the latest. So your ancestor Duncan Livingston Sr. father of Neil, Angus Livingston's neighbour in Drimnatain likely in late 1700's and early 1800's I assume to have been born in the 1760's or perhaps the 1770's at the latest.
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:07 pm

Hi Bill,

Angus Livingston's 1856, Death info

Angus Livingston farmer widower died age 94 on March 16, 1856
at Drimnatyne (Drimnatain), Kinlochspelvie Parish, Mull
Informant: John Livingston son
Parents listed: Duncan Livington and Sarah McPhadden (deceased)
Burial place: Killian?
My assumption is that Duncan Livingston Sr. and Sarah McPhadden are very likely your ancestor Duncan Livingston's parents. I can only guess when Duncan Livington Sr. was born. Likely in the 1730's or early 1740's at the latest would be my best guess if his son Angus was born in 1762 or 1763. The 1851 Census interestingly states that his son old Angus Livingston was born at Torosay while his son Angus Jr. who he lives with in 1852 at Drimnatain was born in Kinlochspelvie so I think the census taker and family is indicating that old Angus was born in the 1760's in another parish in Torosay and not in Kinlochspelvie as everyone else in that croft in Drimnatain was recorded as being born in Kinlochspelvie but old Angus who they say was born in "Torosay". So all we really know then is that in the 1760's when Angus and possibly Duncan your ancestor was born your Livingstons lived in Torosay< mull. Well at least we know way back then they were still definitely Mull Livingstons, so I think we can assume that your Livingstons lived for some time in Mull as least as far back as we are able to go. We got lucky with this one in that because of Angus Livingston late death record of 1856 there is info giving us the names of his parents taking back your Livingston family in Mull one further generation back I believe.

Even better, Interestingly enough death entries recorded between the years 1855 and 1860 also include quite often the place of burial is a great thing for anyone lucky enough to have a Scottish ancestor or relative who died between 1855 and 1860

I did a quick check and so far my best assumption is that "Killian" refers to an very old burial site of Killean that may have been used in the late 1700's by a number of congregations including those who resided in Kinlochspelvie. Some Mull experts might have more insight into this but here is what it says about that old burial site in Mull which could be the "Killian" burial ground where Angus was buried and perhaps where I am hoping his father Duncan Livingston Sr. and other older Livingston kin might have been buried. So far my best guess based on that 1856 death record lead I am following. Take a look at the article I am including below:
Not 100 per cent certain but I am suspecting this might be the old graveyard where for some reason old Angus was buried and perhaps even your ancestor likely his brother Duncan your ancestor. But again just a hunch at this point in time. Not even certain that they were still burying people there in 1856. Looks like an old cemetery. I am going to try and consult with one our Mull Livingston experts on this.
http://www.mull-historical-society.co.u ... 2/killean/

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:38 pm

Hi Bill,
Here is a list of tenants recorded at Drimnatain in the year 1851 for the Kinlochspelvie Parish 1851 Scottish census

(end of Croggan enumeration and beginning of census of Drimnatain residences starting with household no. 35
head of households
no.35 Archibald mcInnes weaver

no. 36 Alexander McGregor weaver

no. 37 Angus Livington age 35 Shepherd (I think the age should have been 55 as the this Angus is 65 in the 1861 census
(with family and elderly widower and father Angus Livingston age 88 born abt. 1762 or 1763)

no. 38 Neil Livingston agricultural labourer age 55 (your ancestor)
his wife Mary and family including your ancestor Donald Livingston age 23

no. 39 Neil Livingston carpenter age 60 and wife Margaret and family

Drimnatain enumeration ends. I assume then that this is list of the households of Drimnatain when your ancestor Neil Livingston and his son Donald your ancestor lived there in 1851. Today I will take a close look at the 1861 Census as all it says at ancestry.co.uk is that Neil Livingston and his wife Mary and family are in 1861 residing in Kinlochspelvie Parish at "Castle Roy" which is there transcription of the original 1861 census info. The closest castle as far as I know to Kinlochspelvie Parish would be the old Maclaine residence of Castle Moy in the Lochbuie area. this Maclaine family of course were the family that owned the land on which Drimnatain was situated and other parts of Mull. I am assuming then that Neil left Drimnatain sometime between 1851 and 1861 perhaps relocated by his Maclaine landlord and ends up in whenever this "Castle Roy" area is. If I look a the original document today perhaps I will be able see if this "Castle Roy" is some sort of transcription error and verify that they did indeed leave Drimnatain. I did oddly enough notice that the 1871 census also has Neil apparently referring to his location as Castle Roy? so I will check that original census entry today as well. Leave no stone unturned I always say. Like a good genealogy mystery from time to time. Keeps my brain going.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2518
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:56 pm

Hi Bill,

Exciting news. I have confirmed that Old Angus Livingston 1762-1856 was likely buried at nearby Killean cemetery which was not too far from Drimnatain, a little east of it, but that other Livingstons related to your Livingstons at Drimnatyne were definitely buried in that old historic Killean cemetery. This is where he was buried in 1856 according to his death record. The older Livingston graves were either unmarked or their 18th and 19th century stone were lost including apparently this old Angus Livingston and his brother Duncan your ancestor unfortunately but I am finding some Livingstons connected to the Drimnatyne Livingstons definitely buried in that Killean cemetery who were related to Angus Livingston of Drimnatain and it stands to reason that some of your Livingston relatives were buried there also or at least your ancestor Duncan Livingston who likely died in Drimnatain sometime before 1841 for sure. Your family however does not seem to go too far back in Drimnatain as the 1851 Census indicates that the oldest surviving Livingston Angus Livingston age 88 was actually born somewhere else in Torosay Parish and not in Kinlochspelvie Parish as his younger Livingston kin were. Where precisely this was is a mystery.

I am including a very detailed Mull map where you can get a sense of just how close the Dalhana, Drimnatyne and Croggan Livingston kin of yours was to Killean where the Killean cemetery I assume was. There were surprisingly Livingston burials in it well into the 1800's and early 1900's.

http://www.mullgenealogy.co.uk/location.asp?sq=I2

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2518
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby jmlivingstone » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:16 pm

Donald/Bill,

Ref. 1871 census mention of Castle Roy, this was a farm name, & the residence of four separate Livingstone families.

Heads of families listed as Neil/Alexander/David/Angus.

The location of Castle Roy, no longer shows on OS maps, it was possibly on the road between Barachandroman & Porterfield, an area that contained the largest concentration of Livingstones on the island, a total of eleven families. (Information from publication by Jo Currie, ''Mull Family Names for ancestor hunters'').

I would also suggest consulting Mull Families, information is available on the following, plus others,

Duncan m. bef. 1758, ID - I74483.

Neil, b. abt. 1758, Torosay.

Angus, b. abt. 1860, Torosay.

Duncan, b. ?, Achnacroish - m - Catherine McDougall.

http://www.mullfamilies.co.uk/index.php,

John.
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Re: Donald Livingstone

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:31 pm

Hi John,

Yes the Castleroy thing is a bit of a mystery to me Have not checked the old Ordnance Survey maps from the 1850s recently but it is not on more contemporary ones at least if it is in the vicinity of Driminatain and Croggan which surprisingly the 1861 Census seems to indicate it is. That kinda makes sense as we know that Bill's ancestor Neil Livingston son of Duncan Livingston and Catharine Mcdougall you mentioned died in the 1880's as a retired agricultural labourer not far from Drimnatain in Croggan village. I was hoping that by looking at this castleroy info in the original 1861 Lochspelvie Parish Census document I could get a better sense where it might be in Lochspelvie Parish. Oddly enough it seems to have been very close to the location in Drimnatain where Neil was recorded in the 1841 and 1851 census with his wife Mary McLean and family and where he was born in the year 1795. I don't know if this helps but I remember yesterday checking info from ordinance survey done sometime between 1868 and 1878 which stated Drimnatain consisted at this time of a one farm house and some ruins. I don't get the one farmhouse but the ruins I assumed were cleared and torn down croft structures of former tenants, but maybe the ruins refer to some more ancient ruins perhaps that might have been where the "castleroy" came from. Not sure but that survey taker did mention some sort of "ruins" at Drimnatain. This is what I found when anyways when I looked over the original census document for Neil Livingston and his neighbours in the year 1861. The 1851 info I already posted for Bill in an earlier message here recently on the forum.

Part of Kenspelvie Parish 1861 Census Castleroy and neighbouring Drimnatyne summary with householders and family
no. 21 Castleroy (Only one family listed residing at Castleroy)
Neil Livingston 65 (Bill Livingston's ancestor)
Mary 63
Alexander 27
Mary 21
Neil 21
Mary age 1 a granddaughter
end of Castleroy info

no.22 Drimnatyne No.1
Duncan Livingston 75 wool weaver
Mary (Mcdougal) 64
Catharine age 26
David 19 (interestingly enough David is buried apparently in Killean cemetery according to Mull Genealogy as our many other Livingstons apparently some of whom lived in the Drimnatyne/Croggan area. Many older Livingston gravesite now unmarked an lost as Angus Livingston of Drimnatain 1762-1856 who according to his death record was buried in Killean cemetery. D.C.)

Drimnatyne no. 2
No. 23 Angus Livingston 65 cotter? (son of late Angus Livingston Sr. 1762-1856 of Drimnatyne possibly Uncle of Neil)
Ann (Mcdougal) 40
Alan age 40
Sarah age 6
Jane age 5
Mary 3

Drimnatyne no. 3
No.24 Ann McGregor widow and family

End of Drimnatyne census info
---------------------------------------------
Village of Croggan
no. 25


regards,

Donald
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